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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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What's the reasoning behind not representing the various military orders as on-map vassals? In 1337 the Order of Calatrava alone held significant lands in Andalusia and all of the military orders played a role in the next century plus of dynastic struggles within and between the Iberian crowns. It feels like that dynamic, plus their loyalty to the Pope, should elevate them out of the estate system.
By 1337, all the Iberian orders functionally worked as vassals of the Iberian rulers. The most representative case might be the Portuguese Order of Christ.
 
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Will some of the later replies at the first Tinto map thread also be looked at? Myself and many others only posted suggestions this week, as it took a while to do our own research before making suggestions
 
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Beautiful maps!

Few questions/comments:

What is the name of the location between Llanes and Santander? It appears not to be labeled. Santillana or San Vicente?

I see you named most of modern-day Cantabria "Trasmiera" in the province view, however that name only really corresponds to the location of Laredo. Maybe you can consider changing this province to La Montaña, as this was a name used historically to refer to roughly this same area.

As for the vegetation of this region (I think by now you can guess where I'm from), it certainly be grassland after the 17th century or thereabouts due to massive deforestation feeding the shipbuilding industry, the cannon foundries at La Cavada, and pastures—at the start of the game it likely would have been more of a wooded environment.

Last one: I did the last 100km of the camino de Santiago last year, and the province of Lugo felt a lot hillier than that!
 
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Will we not get to see the true terrain map??
I know I am in the minority but I always play on the terrain map.. Do you plan on making the terrain map very detailed, because I have some ideas for that
 
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Lisbon and Setúbal are already coastal locations.
indeed but to blockade Sevilla you have to go up the river, and the same should be the case of Lisbon as the maritime infrastructure was on the mouth of the river, not directly on the ocean. I think that, along with whatever else you have planned for maritime gameplay, merits inclusion. You should also consider other such cases, the community would be pleased :)
 
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Well, Galician here, happy to see that many locations in Galicia! However, couple of suggestions in our Atlantic corner of the Map:

-Wouldn't it be better to be a bit more consistent with naming conventions for locations? For example, if you're using Ourense for the name of the province (which I prefer since it is the proper Galician name), you shouldn't call the location Orense. In the same way, Villalba should be Vilalba and Viana del Bollo/Viana do Bolo. Ginzo de Limia, Tuy and Monterrey could stay that way since they were written like that sometimes in medieval times, but we Galicians now write those names as Xinzo de Limia, Tui and Monterrei. Otherwise, pretty good job with the locations and the naming all 7 medieval Galician provinces in 4 provinces.

-On the topic of vegetation, Monforte de Lemos should probably be considered farmlands, since its valley was one of the most fertile places of Galicia back then. Besides, even though we're quite hilly and there is a whole lot of woods here, you should probably add some extra grasslands in some locations. Vilalba and Lugo would be my best bets in that regard. Santiago could be hills as well as flatlands, though.

-There should probably be some Galician pops in Ponferrada, Villafranca del Bierzo and Puebla de Sanabria, since those locations were still a part of Galicia until the XV century and many people still speak Galician there even nowadays. Hell, I would even consider grouping those 3 locations as a distinct province from Leon altogether and call them Bierzo to represent an intermediate state between purely Galician territory and purely Leonese territory. But at least representing that those locations had a mix of Astur-Leonese and Galician speakers is a must with the great job you've done with all those locations!

-When it comes to raw goods, you've made an excelent job representing what resources we Galician produced and use back then. Congratulations, you've even added a tin producing province (those were quite important here, and there is even a proper Galician word noun to describe the profession of those that worked exclusively with tin: picheleiros). However, I must point out that we also worked iron here, specially around Lugo and Santiago, in pretty significant quantities as well. As a matter of fact, there are many names of places, squares, etc. That refer to the guilds working with iron, such as the praza da ferreiria in Pontevedra. Imo, at least one province in Galicia should have iron as a raw good, but that is only my opinion (5/10 recommendation). HOWEVER, WE SHOULD REALLY PRODUCE WINE SOMEWHERE (10/10). Galicia is a region of many different and widely acclaimed wines, after all, and our wine production really skyrocketed during the timeframe of Project Caesar. Thus, I think that at least one, and maybe even two or three locations should produce wine as a raw good. Fine candidates would be Monforte (to represent the Ribeira Sacra) Ourense (for the same reason) and Pontevedra (to represent the fine wines of the Rias Baixas). Stone should also definitely be produced somewhere (8/10 recommendation). All in all, Galician urban architecture relied heavily on stone, and we have been great granite producers at least since three centuries ago. Tuy would be a great province to represent this (granito d'O Porriño, no less).


Sorry if I've overdone my feedback. But seeing such a detailed map has really got me going. I can provide some sources if you will, but that would be my Galician feedback for the moment. Great maps and happy Dia das Letras Galegas (it is one of our national days here in Galicia and it is today)!
 
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For modding purposes, can you already disclose how big the province/heightmaps etc. will be pixel-wise? (e.g. CK3 being 8192x4096).
I'm itching to create high-resolution heightmaps for a total conversion mod
I cant remember if it was Wednesday's Tinto Talk or Last week's Tinto map, but the map is something like 18000 x 12000 or so
 
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Will some of the later replies at the first Tinto map thread also be looked at? Myself and many others only posted suggestions this week, as it took a while to do our own research before making suggestions
Yes.
 
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Beautiful maps!

Few questions/comments:

What is the name of the location between Llanes and Santander? It appears not to be labeled. Santillana or San Vicente?

I see you named most of modern-day Cantabria "Trasmiera" in the province view, however that name only really corresponds to the location of Laredo. Maybe you can consider changing this province to La Montaña, as this was a name used historically to refer to roughly this same area.

As for the vegetation of this region (I think by now you can guess where I'm from), it certainly be grassland after the 17th century or thereabouts due to massive deforestation feeding the shipbuilding industry, the cannon foundries at La Cavada, and pastures—at the start of the game it likely would have been more of a wooded environment.

Last one: I did the last 100km of the camino de Santiago last year, and the province of Lugo felt a lot hillier than that!
San Vicente de la Barquera. I think we're pushing the map mode too much with this one...
 
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My notes regarding Aragón:

Regarding locations
  • Ejea de los Caballeros would be better named "Cinco Villas". It is the name of the shire itself, and whilst Ejea is the main city nowadayw, it was not always the case. Until modern times Sos or Uncastillo were also highly relevant.
  • The Barbastro/Ainsa/Fraga area split is a bit weird. Barbastro should not go so much into the north, since you enter a different terrain. For example, in https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Sobrecollidas_d'o_Reino_d'Aragón.svg you can see medieval Aragon tax district and in https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Comarcas_de_Aragón#/media/Archivo:Comarcas_de_Aragón.png the modern shire division. Aínsa should extend more to the East, until Benabarre and Barbastro should in change take the northern part of Fraga. Othewise it does not fit the valleys and historical connection between the areas. Note even today the N-260 goes East-West instead of North-south
  • Tarazona would be better be split between Tarazona and Borja. I may be biased here, but for me it makes a lot of sense: you can't otherwise properly represent historical events like the War of the Two Peters in which Castille ocuppied Tarazona but not Borja. Also, the valleys there are north-South, so Tarazona should cover the Queiles River, with Borja covering the Huecha River.
The rest is quite ok and I congratulate you on following Daroca's Community historical borders rather than modern division. I had however expected a bit more granularity

Religion
  • The sunni minority in Ejea is quite surprising. While I know a few references to muslim exaricos in the XII century, it seems to be a clear minority there with Ejea, El Frago, Castiliscar etc being mainly repopulated by Christians.
  • The opposite happens around Belchite. The area of current Belchite/Calanda/Híjar was way more populated during muslim times and got heavily hit by the morisco expulsion in the XVII century, with whole villages being abandonded because their entire population was expelled. The muslim patch should go into Alcañiz (which is lots of time mentioned as a Christian foundation in older textbooks, althought it has been refuted in modern scholarship.
  • Maybe we can get a muslim minority in Barbastro to cover Naval? The local muslim population was highly important economically (in ceramics and saltworks).
Economic:
  • Iron in Jaca is wrong and unnecesary. There were some iron mines aroung southern Ribagorza (where wool is indicated). If you exchange wool and iron between Benabarre and Jaca you have the same gameplay but quite more historically realism (wool was a heavy economic activity in Jacetania for centuries).
  • I guess lumber in Sariñena want to represent the Monegros, but there is a lot or urban legends regarding that. Lumber was produced actually more to the north (Ainsa for example) and shipped down in nabatas using the river Gallego. If you exchange trade goods between Ainsa and Sariñena you also improve realism regarding lumber.
  • Doing the last swap would put coal in Sariñena. Which may have sense in game play but not geologically. There were however mines of coal in Mequinenza (under Fraga location in the map). So I would suggest having lumber in Ainsa, Dyes in Sariñena and Coal in Fraga (even though Dyes were not local in Aragon, as far as I know).
  • Wine in Belchite is again weird. The vineyards are in Cariñena, which was part of the Comunidad de Aldeas de Daroca. Belchite is in turn, more of a cereal area. It will be better to swap those two.
  • Spice in Zaragoza is a even more weird... Was it meant to represent regaliz? Zaragoza was known for its orchards so fruits may be more realistic. (I feel we lack a vegetables resource to model orchards). It may still be necesary for gameplay purposes to boost a bit Zaragoza.
  • I would put wine in Barbastro (it is still a vineryard area) and remove wine from Tudela (which is another orchard area that could be given fruits or the more orchard resource)
  • Zuera having lumber is unusuall since it is a more agricultural land. I would however prefer salt to represent Remolinos salt mines that were a major economic element for a couple of millenia.
I want to go to other parts of Spain after I have a coffee.
 
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