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Tinto Maps #20 - 27th of September 2024 - The Steppes

Hello, and welcome one more week to the weekly encounter for map lovers! This week it’s also directed at horse lovers because we will be looking at the Eurasian Steppes, plus the Urals! So let’s start with the maps without further ado.

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.jpg

A glorious, Golden Horde! It is at its power peak, under the reign of Uzbeg Khan, so it's a much more menacing presence for its neighbors. However, it has its some internal issues that need to be managed, as you’ll notice in some of the maps, and in the future when we talk about the content for Hordes. The Golden Horde also heads its own IO, the Tatar Yoke, as shown in a previous Tinto Maps:

Tatar Yoke.jpg

We have already corrected the Ruthenian countries that are under the Horde’s Yoke, although we still have to correct the Russian principalities, which will be done in the corresponding Tinto Maps review. We’re also aware that we need to improve a bit the coloring of the IO, to mark not only the Golden Horde as the overlord of these countries, but also that Muscovy holds the title of the Grand Principality of Vladimir, which makes it the ‘enforcer’ of the Yoke. These fixes are also planned to be done in a few weeks.

Societies of Pops:
Societies of Pops.jpg

Societies of Pops 2.jpg .jpg

A bit up to the north, we have some Societies of Pops! This means that the territory of Western Siberia won’t be empty land, but will be populated by these people, which can be interacted with.

BTW, I’m not showing this week a dynasty map because, well, only the Borgijin dynasty rules over the lands of the Golden Horde, of course!


Locations:
Locations.jpg

Locations Western Siberia.jpg

Locations 3.jpg

Locations 4.jpg

Locations 5.jpg

Tons of locations today… You might notice that the density location is in a progression from west to east, from the most densely settled areas to the less settled ones. You may also notice that we’ve followed a design of ‘settler corridors’ in Western Siberia, setting those parts of the land that were habitable, usually on river valleys.

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Provinces 2.jpg


Areas:
Areas.jpg


Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain is interesting here, as there are two main ecological areas. The first is the Steppes, Flatlands with Sparse and Grasslands vegetation, with either Cold Arid or Continental climates. And then we have the Siberian Arctics Forests, which are completely different, of course. On a note, the Urals were set as Hills, as they’re a quite settleable area, but we’ll probably make a review with your feedback, and add some mountains there.

Development:
Development.jpg

The whole region is not very developed, you might notice the difference with India, from last week’s Tinto Maps.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg

There are some harbors in the Steppe region… In the Black Sea and Caspian Sea, of course! As usual, we’re open to feedback on this matter.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Plenty of cultures! One note: Although we planned to work on the religious and cultural minorities of the region during the summer, we ended up not having enough time to add them. So what we’ll be doing today is showing the rough outline of ‘cultural spheres’, and then we’ll add the minorities during the review of the region. In that sense, feedback is very well received.

With that said the only note that needs to be made in terms of the cultural design is that we divided the Tatar cultural group into some differentiated regional cultures, being Crimean, Mishary, Kazani, and Astrakhani. We’re also aware that some of the cultures, as Mari and Chuvash, might be a bit displaced, as noted in the Russian Tinto Maps, so we’ll review and correct that with your feedback.


Religions:
Religions.jpg

Regarding Religions, the matter is a bit worse, as the big Sunni blob is just because the main religion of the Golden Horde is Islam, after the conversion of Uzbeg Khan, but that’s obviously incorrect. Also, as we have been able to forecast development time on how Pagan divisions will be during this autumn, we will make a comprehensive review of the region as well, to get a good distribution of ‘Shamanist’ Paganism, Tengrism, and Sunni Islam.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

Raw Materials 2.jpg

Raw Materials 3.jpg

Regarding the raw materials, the Steppes have plenty of Livestock and Horses, quite logically, although there are regions with some other goods. And up to the north, the main materials are Lumber and Fur. Apart from that, I want to mention the mineral hub in the Ural Mountains, with plenty of Copper, Iron, Gold, Lead, and Coal. That makes it a very mid and late-game interesting spot, and playing as Muscovy/Russia, I’ll tell you that you definitely want to expand into that region, as it will fulfill some of your material needs by that time.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

Markets! Big region, with lots of markets, although you may noticed that we changed the coloring of the locations that have 0% market access, which is the case in several areas. In any case, the market centers are Kaffa, Astrakhan, Saray-Jük, Kunya Urgench, Samarkand, Almaty, and Chimgi Tura. BTW, these names are much easier to notice in the game’s UI, as they’re beside the market centers:

Markets 2.jpg


Population:
Population.jpg

This week we’re showing only the country population mapmode, as there are some location numbers here and there which are failing, due to the already known issue with our pop editor (and which are on the way to be fixed). In any case, the whole population of the region is around 6.5-7M, of which around 6.3M are part of the Golden Horde. As I said, it’s a menacing country…

And that’s all for today! This is going to be my last Tinto Maps in a while, as I’ll be on vacation for 3 weeks during October (you might have noticed that I didn’t have any during summer), so one of the Content Designers in the team, @Roger Corominas , will step in and be in charge of the next 4 Tinto Maps. It’s in good hands, as Roger is an Experienced CD, who has been working and focused on Project Caesar for more than 3 years, at this point (this is why you might not know him from EU4, as other CDs in our team). In any case, he will be starting with the regions of Xinjiang, mostly ruled by the Chagatai Khanate, and Tibet.

I’ll keep reading and answering you during next week, and then I’ll be back in a month from now. See you!
 
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  • Bug instead of Ochakiv (important river alogn the whole province)
Bug river is much longer than that province, I'm also not aware of any tradition of a use of the name of that river for that area. There was term "Pobozhzhia", but that was used for areas around different parts of that river.
And to make it worse there's another river Bug not that far away from this one.
To me that would be just confusing.
 
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Should "Chelkans" be in the plural? The singular seems to just be Chelkan, no "s".
Also, I think "Tubalar" is in (Turkic) plural as well, the singular would be Tuba
 
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Bug river is much longer than that province, I'm also not aware of any tradition of a use of the name of that river for that area. There was term "Pobozhzhia", but that was used for areas around different parts of that river.
And to make it worse there's another river Bug not that far away from this one.
To me that would be just confusing.
I think Ochakiv and Odessa should be combined into an Ochakiv province. Ochakiv I think was also used as a name for the general region.
 
Not exactly feedback for this region, but for the next Tinto maps Xinjiang should probably be called East Turkestan or some appropriate endonym, just saying.

The region now known as Xinjiang was historically divided into northern and southern areas, corresponding to the geographic Junggar and Tarim Basins. There are several endonyms for both (e.g. Dzungaria, Kashgaria) but most of them date to the 18th century or later and so aren’t any better than Xinjiang.

Turkestan is even worse though, being a horribly imprecise name applied to such places as different as Khwarazm and Ferghana.
 
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The region now known as Xinjiang was historically divided into northern and southern areas, corresponding to the geographic Junggar and Tarim Basins. There are several endonyms for both (e.g. Dzungaria, Kashgaria) but most of them date to the 18th century or later and so aren’t any better than Xinjiang.

Turkestan is even worse though, being a horribly imprecise name applied to such places as different as Khwarazm and Ferghana.
Or just call it Moghulistan, for the polity that ruled over it for most of the time period.
 
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Only 3,000 families moved to the territory of the Golden Horde with Batu Khan. The Golden Horde very quickly became a Kipchak state. Many people from Iran and Central Asia, as well as Russians, lived in the cities. By 1337, only the dynasty remained from the Mongols.
That 4000 men was assigned to Jochi before the death of Ghenghis Khan, Batu inherited most of them but he also got other mongols to join him when he launched the conquest. And there were waves of mongol migration afterwards, largely due to the internal feuds between the rulers. As I said Golden Horde was culturally diverse and largely Turkicized, but surely the Mongol culture do have a seat in its core part.
 
Can you please elaborate on why Sarai has the same development as some empty stepps? In one of the dev-diaries it was said that it is something along the lines of "potential of the land" and "infrascture". So Sarai as one of the most important cities in eastern Europe has neither of it? As a trade hub with a trade region named after it? I am not expecting a dark green colour, but I feel like all trade hubs and major cities deserve some yellow at least. This is also an issue I have with the central asia/Yemen dev map.
 
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Hmn...

I am happy to see the effort put into locations, with some corrections already being suggested by others.
However, since none have really talked about it too much, I would like to talk about the religious layout -
Even understanding full well that, as said, this is a work in progress.

After having written this, I have decided to underline my suggestions, so they are easier to read. They are at the end.

When we received the Caucasian maps, I was very glad to see the granular attention paid to a region that -
Many people are probably not likely to play, and peoples that are less likely to be seen on the greater world stage!

But.

This essentially throws out of the water the idea I'd assumed, that you were taking steps to homogenise areas, for gameplay's sake.
If you are going to add Caucasian indigenous religions, the situation in other peripheral areas should be treated with the same gravity and granularity.
Outside of my repetition that Estonia's religious map is fantasy, impossibly Catholic for the time, but that is not relevant to this post...

Lands of the Rus: Religiously most unified, but very softly.
Without knowing how religion is handled, I cannot give you good feedback as to what to do here.
There is no historical name for it, but I would recommend an intermediary religion for Eastern Slavs that adopts some religious rites of the Yoke.
It would convert very rapidly to Orthodox when/if the Golden Horde collapses, but might remain a distinct grouping if the Horde survives -
Or even convert to Islam/Tengrism depending on which emerges strongest there - including other options we will get to.
Depending on how religion works, rather than a religion, it could be represented as a modifier - but is probably no more than 2% of the population.

Much like Islam, Christianity (Eastern Orthodox) should be uniform in larger settlements, and a spotty mess elsewhere.
A frequent complaint of writers at the time was that there were many 'Bad Christians' in the lands of the Rus.
The conversion to Christianity and Islam were long, complicated processes -
I do not think, in what is trying to be a more historical game, we should pretend otherwise.

The idea of these minorities might be that they are bonfire-making reconstructionist pagans, or something similar.
But that is not how things were, or how we should divide them.
I would recommend two groupings: 'Folkloric' to represent Christianity with strong elements of prior pagan beliefs - and also Tengrist and Islamic influences.
Strong everywhere, stubbornly resistant to conversion, but if there are differences in tolerance, should be largely tolerated and give no penalties to EO powers until roughly the 1500s, which is when you start to see large-scale massive conversion efforts - esp. under Ivan IV (that Ivan).
I would place these as being 10-20% of the population, but almost entirely on the fringes of settlement.
Remember that the 17th, 18th, and 19th-century religious movements did not emerge from nowhere.

As to the other, Slavic Paganism was very much still present.
It, also, was heavily influenced by Christianity, Islam, Tengrism, etc.
I think this is where many people who go 'there could not possibly have been heathens in the Rus!' are tripped up.
Many of these people might well have conflated Dazhbog with Christ. (And please, no 'Rodnoverie...')
But their practises and their isolation did not change the fact that they existed - on the most peripheral settled areas not Societies of Population.
The Pomor, what would become Surgut etc are where we might find this group.
Perhaps 2-4% (but 10-20% in certain starting locations).
But likely to be converted very rapidly/assimilated into the dominant culture/religion of whomever controls the area.
Like the above, it should be very difficult for a player to revitalise this, but not unthinkable in 1337.

Eastern Orthodoxy itself is not the only power in the area. I am sure there are already touches of Roman Catholicism here and there.
But I am talking about, and it is a good place to change to...

The Golden Horde: Religiously disunited, but very softly.

One of the first things that must be mentioned is the Church of the East!
Yes, there should be that very pretty pink colour here, too.
Unfortunately, I cannot properly tell you how many people should still be following it; probably around 2-4%, with stronger location-based presences.
Much like the aforementioned Slavic Pagans, this is a fading, but not defunct religion in the region, and when the game is started, the opportunity for its fortunes to shift do so, too.

Similarly, Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy especially should be present; there were many Greek notables in Saray/Sarai.
Advisors, travellers, missionaries, scientists... Saray should probably have a recurring event on the nomination of a new manager of the yoke that allows for it to 'slow' development in a random area with higher development, in return for Saray itself gaining a development increase speed until it matches all possible targets with higher development.

This is not as simple as giving/taking development, nor (I think!) as powerful/potentially gamey.
Anyway.

Saray should be a religious melting pot - Özbeg Khan struggled with this his entire reign, not entirely successfully.
Much like the Christianisation of the Rus', the conversion of the steppes to Islam was a very slow, gradual process; with settled areas often being converted 'enough,' but still retaining religious minorities (Jews, Buddhists, Tengrists, Church of the East) and the peripheries... Not converting, not really.
Or converting just enough for the tax collector, and then paying it not a lot of mind. (A repeated theme.)

For the potential devotee of the Sunnah, the most powerful obstacle will be those same (Sakya?) Buddhist and Tengrist lords.
Stubbornly resistant to conversion, their feeling of threat under the pressure to convert was yet another pressure in the Horde's collapse.
It is hard to give one location because all of these religions were located across the Horde.
Rather than give you a percentage I will ask for time to see if I can find reliable sources so that I can give you a better idea.
Buddhists should be lower percentage of the population, but stronger in settled and (relatively) more developed areas.

Depending on how long the Khan lives, a re-conversion to Tengrism, Sakya or possibly other forms of Buddhism, adoption of the Church of the East or Eastern Catholicism, even conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy or Shia Islam should be possible. (And just as difficult. Golden Horde should be powerful and challenging, and I trust PC to get that unique balance right!)

Finally, I think if the divisions between Shia/Sunni Islam are re-examined as some of my colleagues who are more familiar with the internal divisions of Islam have suggested, I think it would be well-considered to have the steppes following a separate Sufism-inspired form, with a later ability to 'reconfirm' to a more unified Sunni whole, very rapidly converting population if an Islamic power has survived and thrived. (Or continuing to go their own way, of course.)

However, most important to me of all...

All the rest: First, let's discuss 'Tengrism.'
It's not as bad as 'Shamanism,' but it is still an umbrella for a huge diversity of beliefs.
Is Tengri the skyfather, the skymother, or a completely uncreated deity/deities?
Well, that varies depending on who you ask in both traditions living and defunct.
I do not think Tengrism should be split further!
But I do think that as a still-important religion, having diversities within it like what you may be planning to do with Hinduism would make a great deal of sense.

What we think to do with Tengri and Eke is dominant all across the Steppe.
Some might reverse (or remove) the roles of Tengri and Eke, and Turkic Mongols may well venerate the old Turkic Pantheon.
Eventually, Tanri will become little more than a local name for God, however.
And many of the small local groups classified as Tengrist... Might not be.
Rather, the idea that Tengri is the supreme deity is not shared universally, or that Tengri even is a deity.

But for now, let's look carefully at the blob that is 'Shamanist.'

Looking at the Caucauses map, I would recommend the following divisions along similar lines:
Udmurtic, Komi, Nenetsian etc. This follows what we have seen in the prior map.
I am making the assumption that most religions will be very bare-bones; existing to show historical belief and add options.
However, having flavour events between them, even just one or two, would be nice.
Being able to ask an Udmurtic shaman for a revelatory dance, or an heir travelling with Reindeer Herders as a rite of passage in Nenets faith.

What matters here most is that, even if the fundamental building blocks of these faiths were similar -
Emphasis placed on local shamans and miracleworkers, the small supernatural world and its many mysteries -
They were not a single bloc of belief, and did not regard one another as being interchangable.
(Which of course could be utilised by larger, more unified powers.)

One more note: I can't help but see that you have the Erzyan people as animist.
I am glad to see that the nonsense about them converting very early on isn't present here.
My recommendation would to be have their religion and that of the Finnic Bjarms be similar -

Even if styled as 'Erzyan' and 'Bjarmic,' respectively.

Whew!
That was quite a lot, and I understand that there may not be time to take everything in.
So, for your convenience, here they are as short as possible.

  • Eastern Slavic population should be only just religiously united.
  • A population of Eastern Slavic 'conversos,' who do not convert in the early game, but convert rapidly post-independence.
  • A population of Eastern Slavic pagans, who stubbornly resist conversion but are likely assimilated into the dominant religion/culture as population moves in.
  • Some presence of Roman Catholicism and Judaism.

  • Golden Horde very disunited, but not necessarily fragmented because of it. Division is uniform, with Saray more developed.
  • Church of the East, Judaism, Roman Catholicism present. Buddhist and Tengrist power blocs that can challenge initial ruler.
  • Ability to convert to a different faith on ruler death; disappears if ruler successively converts (historical option).
  • Tengrism having internal mechanics like Hinduism has been hinted to have, with small to moderate variances based on culture and location.
  • Potential to separate Steppe Sunni to represent the periphery of Islam.

  • Shamanism divided using similar themes as the Caucasian map.
  • Each religion should be based around culture or culture grouping, but not locked from conversion.
  • The mechanics can be quite barebones; I would rather see the diversity of the area represented, even if they all play the same -
  • Then see an area that appears to be monolithic, but had many different groups even if their beliefs were similar.
  • Some groups should be paired with Tengri, Suomic, Sámi beliefs etc, over whatever Shamanism represents currently.

  • Thank you very much for reading this far! I will try to organise sources in a timely fashion. c:

Editing to try to remove inconsistent bolding I can't remember using, aha...

With respect to the "Finally, I think if the divisions between Shia/Sunni Islam are re-examined as some of my colleagues who are more familiar with the internal divisions of Islam have suggested, I think it would be well-considered to have the steppes following a separate Sufism-inspired form, with a later ability to 'reconfirm' to a more unified Sunni whole, very rapidly converting population if an Islamic power has survived and thrived. (Or continuing to go their own way, of course.)" part:

I wouldnt start making differentiations between the various school of thoughts of shia or sunni Islam. Maybe if there are some radical differences that played a role in history, otherwise I would leave it as it is. You are going to create an uncessary mess. E.g. Turkey has several schools of thoughts all being part of the hanafi-sunni school. You have milli-görüs, Caplanci, Diyanet, Nurcu, FETÖ, Süleymanci, etc.. They may agree with each other on general topics or may disagree with various other things. The understanding is also very different. Some are more along mysticist views, others more along legalist views (and some are even a mix). Some are even heretical. How would you implement that in the game (just as an example, even thou these school of thoughts are entirely irrelevant to EU5)? I would rather stick to the EU4 formula of making broader decitions allowing people to pick the school of thought and go the mysticist or legalist way. Sufism is more on the mysticist path anyways (generally speaking).
 
What is the definition of "development" in this game? I'm a bit confused, its like on one hand its all about population size or the agriculture production, but on the other hand you have a manufacturing minds behind this figure. Can we have specific terms pls?
 
What is the definition of "development" in this game? I'm a bit confused, its like on one hand its all about population size or the agriculture production, but on the other hand you have a manufacturing minds behind this figure. Can we have specific terms pls?
Have you read the previous Tinto talks #29?

It reflects the level of infrastructure within the location, some buildings that user don't build directly (houses, water supply, streets etc.). It has range from 0 to 100 and in 1337 some settlements in Iceland has development 1-2 and the city of Venice has 40, Johan said.
________________________
Development
One concept that has been in many of our previous GSGs is development. It has been used for various things, but in Project Caesar development represents how cultivated the land is, and how much it is used by the pops living there. The higher the development, the more people can live there, and the more it can be exploited.
As mentioned in earlier Tinto Talks, this is a value that the player mostly only has indirect control over, but you can have your cabinet working on improving development in an entire province at once.
Development helps a fair bit in improving the quality of a location, but all of these values here are still constantly being balanced.
________________________
 
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Have you read the previous Tinto talks #29?

It reflects the level of infrastructure within the location, some buildings that user don't build directly (houses, water supply, streets etc.). It has range from 0 to 100 and in 1337 some settlements in Iceland has development 1-2 and the city of Venice has 40, Johan said.
________________________
Development
One concept that has been in many of our previous GSGs is development. It has been used for various things, but in Project Caesar development represents how cultivated the land is, and how much it is used by the pops living there. The higher the development, the more people can live there, and the more it can be exploited.
As mentioned in earlier Tinto Talks, this is a value that the player mostly only has indirect control over, but you can have your cabinet working on improving development in an entire province at once.
Development helps a fair bit in improving the quality of a location, but all of these values here are still constantly being balanced.
________________________
The problem is that this logic doesnt apply or makes sense. Regions in central asia/Yemen/Oman/eastern Europe were there were strees, houses, water supplies etc. are dark black/brown blobs. Sarai presumably has a population count of +100 000 people, overshadowing the vast majority of European cities. Even if we assume that this number is too high (assuming 50k), it would still be among the largest cities in Europe. Yet it is pitch black in the region. Like why?

And then you have locations in the Gobi desert or in Indian junggles that are a green/yellow blobs. Like what can possible be the resonable explanation for this?
 
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Bug river is much longer than that province, I'm also not aware of any tradition of a use of the name of that river for that area. There was term "Pobozhzhia", but that was used for areas around different parts of that river.
And to make it worse there's another river Bug not that far away from this one.
To me that would be just confusing.
You are technically right, but I think this is a game for tens of thousands of people who speak different languages, and sometimes it is better to find some easier approximation that would make sense and preserve the most correct sense, but would be easier to read by non-ukrainians.
'Pobuzhzhia' means 'land along the Buh river', I think calling the province just 'Buh' (or by its old name 'Boh') preserves the original sense and make it easier to read by all players.
 
The problem is that this logic doesnt apply or makes sense. Regions in central asia/Yemen/Oman/eastern Europe were there were strees, houses, water supplies etc. are dark black/brown blobs. Sarai presumably has a population count of +100 000 people, overshadowing the vast majority of European cities. Even if we assume that this number is too high (assuming 50k), it would still be among the largest cities in Europe. Yet it is pitch black in the region. Like why?

And then you have locations in the Gobi desert or in Indian junggles that are a green/yellow blobs. Like what can possible be the resonable explanation for this?
I think the only problem is the starting balance because it was calculated automatically. The devs have said that they will change it manually according to the feedback. That's why they post these maps :)
 
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I think the only problem is the starting balance because it was calculated automatically. The devs have said that they will change it manually according to the feedback. That's why they post these maps :)
I hope so, because other than basically "this is work in progress", there is (as of yet) no confirmation about adjusting the dev in various locations.
 
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The region now known as Xinjiang was historically divided into northern and southern areas, corresponding to the geographic Junggar and Tarim Basins. There are several endonyms for both (e.g. Dzungaria, Kashgaria) but most of them date to the 18th century or later and so aren’t any better than Xinjiang.

Turkestan is even worse though, being a horribly imprecise name applied to such places as different as Khwarazm and Ferghana.
Considering that Xinjiang is an anachronistic exonym, I don't see how any of these choices would be any worse. However, if there is no endonym for the entire region, then maybe it doesn't make sense to consider it a single region/area/unit at all.
 
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To fix two Chernihiv\Chernigov problem, I propose using the Russian Empire's administrative divisions for Chernigov and Poltava gubernia. As you can see Ukraine and Podillia already more or less follow those borders

1727691471581.png
1727691515049.png


Going larger with that idea, the same can be done with other regions

1727691821520.png

I think it is important to keep the borders of Don Host Oblast as it was, and not splitting it into two as it's done right now.

But on the other side, we have this map where the merge of regions Crimea and Yedisan is highly strange
1727692028623.png

Here I think it is better to go with Golden Horde Ulus divisions

1727692300840.jpeg

1727692313341.jpeg


Ulus Burundai and Ulus Mautsi

So at the end something like this
1727695486573.png
 
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To fix two Chernihiv\Chernigov problem, I propose using the Russian Empire's administrative divisions for Chernigov and Poltava gubernia. As you can see Ukraine and Podillia already more or less follow those borders

View attachment 1195637View attachment 1195638

Going larger with that idea, the same can be done with other regions

View attachment 1195642
I think it is important to keep the borders of Don Host Oblast as it was, and not splitting it into two as it's done right now.

But on the other side, we have this map where the merge of regions Crimea and Yedisan is highly strange
View attachment 1195644
Here I think it is better to go with Golden Horde Ulus divisions

View attachment 1195645
View attachment 1195646

Ulus Burundai and Ulus Mautsi

So at the end something like this
View attachment 1195657
BTW Proletarsk is a soviet name. It is better to use Velikoknyazheskaya
 
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