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Tinto Maps #20 - 27th of September 2024 - The Steppes

Hello, and welcome one more week to the weekly encounter for map lovers! This week it’s also directed at horse lovers because we will be looking at the Eurasian Steppes, plus the Urals! So let’s start with the maps without further ado.

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.jpg

A glorious, Golden Horde! It is at its power peak, under the reign of Uzbeg Khan, so it's a much more menacing presence for its neighbors. However, it has its some internal issues that need to be managed, as you’ll notice in some of the maps, and in the future when we talk about the content for Hordes. The Golden Horde also heads its own IO, the Tatar Yoke, as shown in a previous Tinto Maps:

Tatar Yoke.jpg

We have already corrected the Ruthenian countries that are under the Horde’s Yoke, although we still have to correct the Russian principalities, which will be done in the corresponding Tinto Maps review. We’re also aware that we need to improve a bit the coloring of the IO, to mark not only the Golden Horde as the overlord of these countries, but also that Muscovy holds the title of the Grand Principality of Vladimir, which makes it the ‘enforcer’ of the Yoke. These fixes are also planned to be done in a few weeks.

Societies of Pops:
Societies of Pops.jpg

Societies of Pops 2.jpg .jpg

A bit up to the north, we have some Societies of Pops! This means that the territory of Western Siberia won’t be empty land, but will be populated by these people, which can be interacted with.

BTW, I’m not showing this week a dynasty map because, well, only the Borgijin dynasty rules over the lands of the Golden Horde, of course!


Locations:
Locations.jpg

Locations Western Siberia.jpg

Locations 3.jpg

Locations 4.jpg

Locations 5.jpg

Tons of locations today… You might notice that the density location is in a progression from west to east, from the most densely settled areas to the less settled ones. You may also notice that we’ve followed a design of ‘settler corridors’ in Western Siberia, setting those parts of the land that were habitable, usually on river valleys.

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Provinces 2.jpg


Areas:
Areas.jpg


Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain is interesting here, as there are two main ecological areas. The first is the Steppes, Flatlands with Sparse and Grasslands vegetation, with either Cold Arid or Continental climates. And then we have the Siberian Arctics Forests, which are completely different, of course. On a note, the Urals were set as Hills, as they’re a quite settleable area, but we’ll probably make a review with your feedback, and add some mountains there.

Development:
Development.jpg

The whole region is not very developed, you might notice the difference with India, from last week’s Tinto Maps.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg

There are some harbors in the Steppe region… In the Black Sea and Caspian Sea, of course! As usual, we’re open to feedback on this matter.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Plenty of cultures! One note: Although we planned to work on the religious and cultural minorities of the region during the summer, we ended up not having enough time to add them. So what we’ll be doing today is showing the rough outline of ‘cultural spheres’, and then we’ll add the minorities during the review of the region. In that sense, feedback is very well received.

With that said the only note that needs to be made in terms of the cultural design is that we divided the Tatar cultural group into some differentiated regional cultures, being Crimean, Mishary, Kazani, and Astrakhani. We’re also aware that some of the cultures, as Mari and Chuvash, might be a bit displaced, as noted in the Russian Tinto Maps, so we’ll review and correct that with your feedback.


Religions:
Religions.jpg

Regarding Religions, the matter is a bit worse, as the big Sunni blob is just because the main religion of the Golden Horde is Islam, after the conversion of Uzbeg Khan, but that’s obviously incorrect. Also, as we have been able to forecast development time on how Pagan divisions will be during this autumn, we will make a comprehensive review of the region as well, to get a good distribution of ‘Shamanist’ Paganism, Tengrism, and Sunni Islam.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

Raw Materials 2.jpg

Raw Materials 3.jpg

Regarding the raw materials, the Steppes have plenty of Livestock and Horses, quite logically, although there are regions with some other goods. And up to the north, the main materials are Lumber and Fur. Apart from that, I want to mention the mineral hub in the Ural Mountains, with plenty of Copper, Iron, Gold, Lead, and Coal. That makes it a very mid and late-game interesting spot, and playing as Muscovy/Russia, I’ll tell you that you definitely want to expand into that region, as it will fulfill some of your material needs by that time.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

Markets! Big region, with lots of markets, although you may noticed that we changed the coloring of the locations that have 0% market access, which is the case in several areas. In any case, the market centers are Kaffa, Astrakhan, Saray-Jük, Kunya Urgench, Samarkand, Almaty, and Chimgi Tura. BTW, these names are much easier to notice in the game’s UI, as they’re beside the market centers:

Markets 2.jpg


Population:
Population.jpg

This week we’re showing only the country population mapmode, as there are some location numbers here and there which are failing, due to the already known issue with our pop editor (and which are on the way to be fixed). In any case, the whole population of the region is around 6.5-7M, of which around 6.3M are part of the Golden Horde. As I said, it’s a menacing country…

And that’s all for today! This is going to be my last Tinto Maps in a while, as I’ll be on vacation for 3 weeks during October (you might have noticed that I didn’t have any during summer), so one of the Content Designers in the team, @Roger Corominas , will step in and be in charge of the next 4 Tinto Maps. It’s in good hands, as Roger is an Experienced CD, who has been working and focused on Project Caesar for more than 3 years, at this point (this is why you might not know him from EU4, as other CDs in our team). In any case, he will be starting with the regions of Xinjiang, mostly ruled by the Chagatai Khanate, and Tibet.

I’ll keep reading and answering you during next week, and then I’ll be back in a month from now. See you!
 
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Some updates to my previous map:
  • Decided to go with the traditional intepretation of the Turkic/Mongolic colours for the cardinal directions, applied to the hordes
  • Expanded on the vassals in the Bulgar ulus + added the Kingdom of Mukhsha
  • Included the new vassals in Moldavia + the vassal of the Despotate of Saqčï in northern Dobruja
  • I was able to gleam from a couple sources on the existence of four other ulus' in the West under the Batu Ulus (White Horde). I had a source that had some names, but I lost it so I've simply marked them with four red question marks

View attachment 1245368

Locations:

View attachment 1245369



Everything is complicated with Bashkiria. I found the source here...
Bashkir lands in the ulus of Jochi

In general, at the beginning of the 14th century, the part west of the Ural Mountains, which roughly occupied the area of the future Kazan Daruga, may be called Pascatir (olim Regio Pascatir) and belongs to Batu Ulus (the White Horde).

The part in the south of the Ural Mountains that roughly occupied the future Nogai Daruga region may be called Baskardia and most likely belongs to the Shiban Ulus (Gray Horde).

And the part east of the Ural Mountains may be called Tura (or Ura), which roughly occupied the area of the future Siberian Daruga. She belonged to the Shiban Ulus (the Grey Horde).

There is also a part called Kural (or Kelar, Coral, Kraal, Kolar, Kirali) and most likely it occupied the area of the future Osinskaya daruga. And such a big difference in names means that Ugrians (Magyars) lived there, not Bashkirs, because Kirali means king in Magyar. Accordingly, they were not part of the Golden Horde.

These parts are equivalent to the great emirs. But in general, there were many more Bashkir tribes, there were also Jurmatians, Mingi, Tabyns, Kipsiaks, Iryaktes and some others. They are equivalent to emirs. At the same time, all Bashkir tribes were under one leader (or different heirs of the same family) and were collectively considered a Bashkir ulus.

In the game, it would be more correct to make Bashkir ulus an international organization. The Bashkir emirs, if we find information about them, can be represented as extraterritorial countries. Well, the great emirs as separate countries within the golden Horde.

The steppe horde is not suitable for them, I think, because they are semi-settled, it is better to imagine them as tribal governments.

1739061717479.png
 
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By the way, somewhere in one of my folders I have an old map of the 18th century on which the names of some small hordes and independent kingdoms in the Kazakh steppes are written. At that time, Kazakhstan was very fragmented. I can search for this map and make a map of their approximate location. Perhaps many of them have existed since the time of the Golden Horde. This can help you find information.
 
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While cool, I don't think this reflects the administrative structure of the Golden Horde at the time, let alone the ethnic situation. For one Kalmyks would not be located in Kazakhstan in the 14th century.
However, the map does help a bit. Between Kazan, Bashkiria and Nogai there was a small region called Samarskaya Luka, which was directly subordinate to Batu Ulus (the White Horde). Almost nothing is known about him, but it is definitely wrong to attribute him to the Shiban Ulus (the Gray Horde). In addition, it has little effect on the ethnic situation. For some reason, the Bashkirs are now further east than they should be. And the Nogai culture occupies the space of the Astrakhan culture, which also belonged to the Batu Ulus (the White Horde), and not the Shiban Ulus (the Gray Horde). Nogai should appear there later, sometime in the 15th century on a temporary basis.

I am looking for information on the Samarskaya Luka and it seems that it was occupied by Bashkirs in the 14th century. I did not take this into account, because they have never had independent formations there.
 
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Орда.png


so... well... yes... we need a lot more time to study the sources in order to understand everything.

Maybe there were two Shiban Ulus. Maybe there was a vassal of Novgorod in Siberia. There is a strange situation on the Syr Darya River. And there is the problem of identifying hordes. The Ak Horde was subordinate to the Orda-Ezhen Ulus, and this can only be true in this interpretation.
 
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View attachment 1252996

so... well... yes... we need a lot more time to study the sources in order to understand everything.

Maybe there were two Shiban Ulus. Maybe there was a vassal of Novgorod in Siberia. There is a strange situation on the Syr Darya River. And there is the problem of identifying hordes. The Ak Horde was subordinate to the Orda-Ezhen Ulus, and this can only be true in this interpretation.
Yugra was not located there. Pegaya horde did not exist yet either. I made this post a while back on the area.
 
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Орда.png


AN EPIPHANY!
I understood Uzbek Khan's reforms. There were 5 hordes. The yellow one controlled the blue one, the blue one controlled the white one, the white one controlled the black one, and the black one controlled the red one. According to legend, Shiban got possession of the boz horde because the white one should rule the black one. During the "Great Troubles" there was a crisis of legitimacy. The Shibanids came to power in the golden Horde, and the horde became white. In Russia, they said that the horde turned blue because the white one obeyed the blue one. In general, the illegitimate Mamai turns out to be on the throne, and then Tokhtamysh appears from the red Horde and becomes the legitimate ruler of the golden Horde, which by that time was white. And it turns out that the capital of the white Horde is now in Sygnak, because there was the capital of the red Horde, whose ruler was Tokhtamysh. And now it is clear why Tokhtamysh marched to the Volga River without resistance, and then entered Moscow without resistance. He became the legitimate ruler who united the horde, and Moscow recognized him as the ruler of the horde. It remains unclear to what extent Tamerlane was involved and why he then tried to subjugate the Golden Horde. But now it became clear why the horde was divided along such borders.
 
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Yugra was not located there. Pegaya horde did not exist yet either. I made this post a while back on the area.
Yes, I've already realized my mistake. The Piebald Horde really might not have existed at that time. I will take this into account in the next version of the map. In the west of the White Horde, the Korel Ulus was created, which fought with the Hungarians. With your proposal, the territory of Ibir-Sibir Ulus (Tyumen Ulus and Taibugin Yurt) should now be there. Then where should I put the Korel ulus?

The source of the Korel Ulus and other Shibanid ulus:
Sbornik_Kurgan2
 
Want to know true madness? Apparently in between Yaik and the Irtysh there were not Kipchaks like the century before, but something related to the Siberian Turkic Askiz culture of the Khakass. These may have been Keraits, Naimans or actual Mongols. The area also covers most of the Bashkir territory. Have fun with that information.
1739318237233.png

 
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Yes, I've already realized my mistake. The Piebald Horde really might not have existed at that time. I will take this into account in the next version of the map. In the west of the White Horde, the Korel Ulus was created, which fought with the Hungarians. With your proposal, the territory of Ibir-Sibir Ulus (Tyumen Ulus and Taibugin Yurt) should now be there. Then where should I put the Korel ulus?

The source of the Korel Ulus and other Shibanid ulus:
Sbornik_Kurgan2
Not sure but since it's supposed to correlate to the Ugrians along the Belaya I have another post about them here.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...tember-2024-the-steppes.1705649/post-30098634
 
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Want to know true madness? Apparently in between Yaik and the Irtysh there were not Kipchaks like the century before, but something related to the Siberian Turkic Askiz culture of the Khakass. These may have been Keraits, Naimans or actual Mongols. The area also covers most of the Bashkir territory. Have fun with that information.
View attachment 1253423

I've read something not particularly historical here, and it gave me new thoughts.

Shiban ulus, which is Uzbek ulus, which is in the center, which is cyanic. It seems that this ulus was actually called "Desht-i-Kipchak". It was another horde called the Iuz Horde (the name means "union", not the color like the rest of the hordes). It had 4 parts (names unknown) and was controlled by all four hordes simultaneously. Therefore, after the collapse of the horde, everyone claimed this ulus. This horde was the meeting place of all the khans, where decisions were made about the management of the hordes and power struggles took place there, away from everyone, so as not to interfere with the settled ones. In the future, with the collapse of the horde, it will turn into a state of nomadic Uzbeks.

I think I've found all the uluses. Now all I have to do is adjust the form, add information about the rulers, the population, and the nomads who were there (it may take months). And by the way, there were Naimans living between Yaik and Irtysh, it's true. And this is a very good map! It shows the southern border of the Boz Horde.
 
View attachment 1253393

AN EPIPHANY!
I understood Uzbek Khan's reforms. There were 5 hordes. The yellow one controlled the blue one, the blue one controlled the white one, the white one controlled the black one, and the black one controlled the red one. According to legend, Shiban got possession of the boz horde because the white one should rule the black one. During the "Great Troubles" there was a crisis of legitimacy. The Shibanids came to power in the golden Horde, and the horde became white. In Russia, they said that the horde turned blue because the white one obeyed the blue one. In general, the illegitimate Mamai turns out to be on the throne, and then Tokhtamysh appears from the red Horde and becomes the legitimate ruler of the golden Horde, which by that time was white. And it turns out that the capital of the white Horde is now in Sygnak, because there was the capital of the red Horde, whose ruler was Tokhtamysh. And now it is clear why Tokhtamysh marched to the Volga River without resistance, and then entered Moscow without resistance. He became the legitimate ruler who united the horde, and Moscow recognized him as the ruler of the horde. It remains unclear to what extent Tamerlane was involved and why he then tried to subjugate the Golden Horde. But now it became clear why the horde was divided along such borders.
The more I look into it, the more I believe it is waaay too much.

Can you provide for every ulus/horde some works that say they had independent tax collection, independent army, independent administration?

Why it is not just strong nobles? If we apply same approach to any other nation we will get HRE like maps everywhere, because nations were never unitary at that time.

Because it just looks like putting every mention of something called remotely ulus to the map.

Like there are two uluses named Siban, are we even sure it is not just a single one with undetermined history? (For example some say one thing others differ)

Personally, I kinda burned out of googling every name from the map to find even a fraction of information, and just feel like Golden Horde should be one tag with a strong nobles estate, and unique mechanics for all hordes representing blue/white division.

For example election mechanic: have 2-3 noble families(instead of one) that divide your realm into parts(white, blue and for GH also Shiban), and have a player elect the next ruler from them, pissing of the other branch and having some unrest. And if you lose to the unrest you fragment to two or more nations.

The division itself can be SoP or building based (like Yurt), that will with time change its dislocation slightly. At the end of the day, hordes are nomads, they migrate from place to place, change their locations and the borders between them. Uzbek tribes started with in Tumen river basin in Siberia, bun ended in Uzbekistan. Any depiction of borders relevant in 13 century will become irrelevant in few years of gameplay.

Not everything should be drawn on the map. I believe abstraction is also a solution.
 
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The more I look into it, the more I believe it is waaay too much.

Can you provide for every ulus/horde some works that say they had independent tax collection, independent army, independent administration?

Why it is not just strong nobles? If we apply same approach to any other nation we will get HRE like maps everywhere, because nations were never unitary at that time.

Because it just looks like putting every mention of something called remotely ulus to the map.

Like there are two uluses named Siban, are we even sure it is not just a single one with undetermined history? (For example some say one thing others differ)

Personally, I kinda burned out of googling every name from the map to find even a fraction of information, and just feel like Golden Horde should be one tag with a strong nobles estate, and unique mechanics for all hordes representing blue/white division.

For example election mechanic: have 2-3 noble families(instead of one) that divide your realm into parts(white, blue and for GH also Shiban), and have a player elect the next ruler from them, pissing of the other branch and having some unrest. And if you lose to the unrest you fragment to two or more nations.

The division itself can be SoP or building based (like Yurt), that will with time change its dislocation slightly. At the end of the day, hordes are nomads, they migrate from place to place, change their locations and the borders between them. Uzbek tribes started with in Tumen river basin in Siberia, bun ended in Uzbekistan. Any depiction of borders relevant in 13 century will become irrelevant in few years of gameplay.

Not everything should be drawn on the map. I believe abstraction is also a solution.
Well i would personally disagree.

What i consider one tag is “who has the authority of administration”

Let’s take France for example in the royal demesne the king has authority of administration, yes there are still regional nobles, but it was the king who sent someone to administer Languedoc.

Meanwhile in the Duchy of Burgundy despite being nominally under the French King, the Duke had supreme authority over his demesne and the King couldn’t tell him how to rule.

Similarly Hordes function on a basis of loyalty and authority.

The Golden Horde cannot just replace the Leader of the Blue horde, and cannot tell him how to rule his own horde as long as he is loyal.
 
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Well i would personally disagree.

What i consider one tag is “who has the authority of administration”

Let’s take France for example in the royal demesne the king has authority of administration, yes there are still regional nobles, but it was the king who sent someone to administer Languedoc.

Meanwhile in the Duchy of Burgundy despite being nominally under the French King, the Duke had supreme authority over his demesne and the King couldn’t tell him how to rule.

Similarly Hordes function on a basis of loyalty and authority.

The Golden Horde cannot just replace the Leader of the Blue horde, and cannot tell him how to rule his own horde as long as he is loyal.
Take just one step from your example. Were the House of Lancaster or York ruled over a vassal or were they just hereditary nobles? I do not see any claims that "King told them how to rule". However, I also do not see vassal tags there in the game. Hungary didn't get an independent Transylvania vassal.

Back to our horses:
Hordes are based solely on loyalty, blood, and authority. This is their basic power structure, but it is not a reason to create yet another HRE. Just because the title was hereditary and was not challenged, doesn't mean it was a separate nation. And to all I see, we can't be sure. It might have been that we just have no records of that happening.

Look at Persia TT, I think devs have shown why it is so divided and not just a single nation of Ilkhanate
The Ilkhanate is still alive, but in name only, the real power being hosted by the Jalayirids, who are overlords of some of their neighbors (the Chobanids, and the Eretnids). Other countries, such as Gurgan, the Kartids, and Muzaffarids are also struggling to get the hegemony over the region.

And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization

Golden Horde doesn't come near to being portrayed in the same way, at least until after Timur raids
 
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The more I look into it, the more I believe it is waaay too much.

Can you provide for every ulus/horde some works that say they had independent tax collection, independent army, independent administration?

Why it is not just strong nobles? If we apply same approach to any other nation we will get HRE like maps everywhere, because nations were never unitary at that time.

Because it just looks like putting every mention of something called remotely ulus to the map.

Like there are two uluses named Siban, are we even sure it is not just a single one with undetermined history? (For example some say one thing others differ)

Personally, I kinda burned out of googling every name from the map to find even a fraction of information, and just feel like Golden Horde should be one tag with a strong nobles estate, and unique mechanics for all hordes representing blue/white division.

For example election mechanic: have 2-3 noble families(instead of one) that divide your realm into parts(white, blue and for GH also Shiban), and have a player elect the next ruler from them, pissing of the other branch and having some unrest. And if you lose to the unrest you fragment to two or more nations.

The division itself can be SoP or building based (like Yurt), that will with time change its dislocation slightly. At the end of the day, hordes are nomads, they migrate from place to place, change their locations and the borders between them. Uzbek tribes started with in Tumen river basin in Siberia, bun ended in Uzbekistan. Any depiction of borders relevant in 13 century will become irrelevant in few years of gameplay.

Not everything should be drawn on the map. I believe abstraction is also a solution.



While I agree on some part with not including every tiny questionable tribe, I'm also not a fan of simplifying things for the sake of it. The Golden Horde wasn't a monolith, even if Özbeg was a strong leader. Representing vassals which we know acted independently as playable countries is quite important for the sake a dynamic world and for replayability.

Just like I don't want the Chagatai to be a single blob, with Timur spawning as a leader via event (which never happened), I'm not agreeable on the Golden Horde as a single centralized giga blob, when it wasn't.


 
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While I agree on some part with not including every tiny questionable tribe, I'm also not a fan of simplifying things for the sake of it. The Golden Horde wasn't a monolith, even if Özbeg was a strong leader. Representing vassals which we know acted independently as playable countries is quite important for the sake a dynamic world and for replayability.

Just like I don't want the Chagatai to be a single blob, with Timur spawning as a leader via event (which never happened), I'm not agreeable on the Golden Horde as a single centralized giga blob, when it wasn't.


Well, part of my question is, what we know for sure.

Like, I saw here arguments about white, blue and shiban independence. I am not sold on them, but it is my opinion. But what do we have about all those small vassals e.g. Kazan, Malmyzh, Korel, Tura, Singkuma, Sibir and Shibir(which sounds the same)?

I know even I attached some info about them here. But I start to doubt that high fragmentation as a concept. Have they had independent army, diplomacy, administration, taxation that will suffice being a vassal state? Does anyone found good source on their structure? Because I just can’t.
 
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Take just one step from your example. Were the House of Lancaster or York ruled over a vassal or were they just hereditary nobles? I do not see any claims that "King told them how to rule". However, I also do not see vassal tags there in the game. Hungary didn't get an independent Transylvania vassal.
I am SO GLAD you brought up Lancaster and York.

If you read up on the history and the 100 years war, you find that yes, the Earl of Lancaster is a powerful peer of the realm in 1337 BUT, he’s just that, a peer of the realm, loyal to the king and functionally within his administration.

It is actually only in 1351, following victorious battles in France that Henry of Grosmont “is bestowed Edward an even greater honour on Lancaster when he created him Duke of Lancaster. The title of duke was of relatively new origin in England; only one other English ducal title had previously existed.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_of_Grosmont,_1st_Duke_of_Lancaster#cite_note-96[j]

In addition to this, the dukedom was given palatinate powers over the county of Lancashire, which entitled Grosmont to administer it virtually independently of the crown.”

And yes, i would argue that at that point the Duchy of Lancaster should be released as an independent tag and I hope there is mechanics for it in game.

As for York, the title didn’t even exist until 1385. And yes, i will once again argue it should be released as an appanage because that’s exactly what it was.

As for Transylvania in 1337 Charles had already consolidated his realm so much that he was appointing the Voivode of Transylvania.
 
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