• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #20 - 27th of September 2024 - The Steppes

Hello, and welcome one more week to the weekly encounter for map lovers! This week it’s also directed at horse lovers because we will be looking at the Eurasian Steppes, plus the Urals! So let’s start with the maps without further ado.

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.jpg

A glorious, Golden Horde! It is at its power peak, under the reign of Uzbeg Khan, so it's a much more menacing presence for its neighbors. However, it has its some internal issues that need to be managed, as you’ll notice in some of the maps, and in the future when we talk about the content for Hordes. The Golden Horde also heads its own IO, the Tatar Yoke, as shown in a previous Tinto Maps:

Tatar Yoke.jpg

We have already corrected the Ruthenian countries that are under the Horde’s Yoke, although we still have to correct the Russian principalities, which will be done in the corresponding Tinto Maps review. We’re also aware that we need to improve a bit the coloring of the IO, to mark not only the Golden Horde as the overlord of these countries, but also that Muscovy holds the title of the Grand Principality of Vladimir, which makes it the ‘enforcer’ of the Yoke. These fixes are also planned to be done in a few weeks.

Societies of Pops:
Societies of Pops.jpg

Societies of Pops 2.jpg .jpg

A bit up to the north, we have some Societies of Pops! This means that the territory of Western Siberia won’t be empty land, but will be populated by these people, which can be interacted with.

BTW, I’m not showing this week a dynasty map because, well, only the Borgijin dynasty rules over the lands of the Golden Horde, of course!


Locations:
Locations.jpg

Locations Western Siberia.jpg

Locations 3.jpg

Locations 4.jpg

Locations 5.jpg

Tons of locations today… You might notice that the density location is in a progression from west to east, from the most densely settled areas to the less settled ones. You may also notice that we’ve followed a design of ‘settler corridors’ in Western Siberia, setting those parts of the land that were habitable, usually on river valleys.

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Provinces 2.jpg


Areas:
Areas.jpg


Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain is interesting here, as there are two main ecological areas. The first is the Steppes, Flatlands with Sparse and Grasslands vegetation, with either Cold Arid or Continental climates. And then we have the Siberian Arctics Forests, which are completely different, of course. On a note, the Urals were set as Hills, as they’re a quite settleable area, but we’ll probably make a review with your feedback, and add some mountains there.

Development:
Development.jpg

The whole region is not very developed, you might notice the difference with India, from last week’s Tinto Maps.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg

There are some harbors in the Steppe region… In the Black Sea and Caspian Sea, of course! As usual, we’re open to feedback on this matter.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Plenty of cultures! One note: Although we planned to work on the religious and cultural minorities of the region during the summer, we ended up not having enough time to add them. So what we’ll be doing today is showing the rough outline of ‘cultural spheres’, and then we’ll add the minorities during the review of the region. In that sense, feedback is very well received.

With that said the only note that needs to be made in terms of the cultural design is that we divided the Tatar cultural group into some differentiated regional cultures, being Crimean, Mishary, Kazani, and Astrakhani. We’re also aware that some of the cultures, as Mari and Chuvash, might be a bit displaced, as noted in the Russian Tinto Maps, so we’ll review and correct that with your feedback.


Religions:
Religions.jpg

Regarding Religions, the matter is a bit worse, as the big Sunni blob is just because the main religion of the Golden Horde is Islam, after the conversion of Uzbeg Khan, but that’s obviously incorrect. Also, as we have been able to forecast development time on how Pagan divisions will be during this autumn, we will make a comprehensive review of the region as well, to get a good distribution of ‘Shamanist’ Paganism, Tengrism, and Sunni Islam.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

Raw Materials 2.jpg

Raw Materials 3.jpg

Regarding the raw materials, the Steppes have plenty of Livestock and Horses, quite logically, although there are regions with some other goods. And up to the north, the main materials are Lumber and Fur. Apart from that, I want to mention the mineral hub in the Ural Mountains, with plenty of Copper, Iron, Gold, Lead, and Coal. That makes it a very mid and late-game interesting spot, and playing as Muscovy/Russia, I’ll tell you that you definitely want to expand into that region, as it will fulfill some of your material needs by that time.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

Markets! Big region, with lots of markets, although you may noticed that we changed the coloring of the locations that have 0% market access, which is the case in several areas. In any case, the market centers are Kaffa, Astrakhan, Saray-Jük, Kunya Urgench, Samarkand, Almaty, and Chimgi Tura. BTW, these names are much easier to notice in the game’s UI, as they’re beside the market centers:

Markets 2.jpg


Population:
Population.jpg

This week we’re showing only the country population mapmode, as there are some location numbers here and there which are failing, due to the already known issue with our pop editor (and which are on the way to be fixed). In any case, the whole population of the region is around 6.5-7M, of which around 6.3M are part of the Golden Horde. As I said, it’s a menacing country…

And that’s all for today! This is going to be my last Tinto Maps in a while, as I’ll be on vacation for 3 weeks during October (you might have noticed that I didn’t have any during summer), so one of the Content Designers in the team, @Roger Corominas , will step in and be in charge of the next 4 Tinto Maps. It’s in good hands, as Roger is an Experienced CD, who has been working and focused on Project Caesar for more than 3 years, at this point (this is why you might not know him from EU4, as other CDs in our team). In any case, he will be starting with the regions of Xinjiang, mostly ruled by the Chagatai Khanate, and Tibet.

I’ll keep reading and answering you during next week, and then I’ll be back in a month from now. See you!
 
  • 145Like
  • 48Love
  • 4
  • 3
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
View attachment 1194172

why this region is more developed than Russia? it was a place of constant fights between Mongols and Russians and was called Wild Stepps because there was no law, no control, nothing, nobody lived there. Im talking more about Regions of Tambov, Sloboda Ukraine and Samara
View attachment 1194174
Probably because of the terrain, we'll review that.
 
  • 24Like
  • 4
  • 2Haha
Reactions:
Btw regarding SoPs can they become tributaries of landed countries like the Sámi were?
In theory, yes, although there are some things that we yet have to review regarding this.
 
  • 32Like
  • 3
Reactions:
maybe a bit too Siberian for this thread but some notes:

- where are the Ket and other Yeniseian groups? I can see there's a Ket province but doesn't seem like there's any culture when it has a much larger range this early (at least matching the spread of Yeniseian languages mapped in the 16th c.?)
- Nenets next to Vepsian seems a bit too far east (though I'm not as familiar/sure)
- Naming/locations for the some of the SoPs seem odd (like Selkuper can probably just be Selkup, and why aren't Selkup pops to the east part of the SoP?), and it seems like a bunch of the SoPs have different names than the culture they represent or group a bunch of cultures together (Altaian, though I think this one makes sense). are there multiple SoPs for the same culture with those different Uralic/Siberian groups? the criteria here seems hard to understand
 
  • 5Like
  • 5
  • 5
Reactions:
I really do not understand where Hongoraians the name comes from, but this is very cool for Western Siberia otherwise. The most glaring lack I noticed is the lack of Samoyeds like the Mator and Karagas in Sayan Mountains. I will write a longer post when I am home, thanks for the map! Also, I think you should just simply return to the old map aesthetic, you are currently fixing something that is not broken and it is getting worse than it used to be.
 
  • 7Like
  • 2
  • 2
Reactions:
The status of genoese possesions isn't accurate. Tana and Susaco should be under genoese control while Soldaio/Sudak should be controlled by the horde.
 
  • 3
  • 1Like
Reactions:
@Pavía 2. I remember checking this, there isn't clear data about it, so I was more inclined to consider that it hadn't fallen yet into Trebizond's sphere of influence.

If anything it's the opposite, Trebizond's control of the northern Black Sea coast from 1337 going forward is only going to decline, they pretty much gave away their last outposts to Genoa and when Theodoro basically became indipendent they didn't even bother to subjucate them instead they kept them as allies.
 
  • 4
Reactions:
There is a Proletarsk by the Lake Manych in pontic steppes. It should be Kara-Chaplak (Cheplak, Cheprak) because Proletarsk is a Soviet name.

In terms of Project Caesar, this is a Velikoknyazheskaya cossack stanitsa but it is said to be located at an earlier tatar site - hence the turkic name.
Turkic name is also shorter and easier.
 
  • 8Like
  • 3
Reactions:
I already mentioned this on this weeks TT but I really feel like the white horde should start as a vassal of the golden horde rather than directly ruled by it. I feel like that would better represent the relationship between the eastern and western parts of the horde.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I assume "Hongorian" is supposed to be the Eastern Magyars? When Friar Julian visited them in the 13th century he reported their language was still intelligible, so you might not have to make them a separate culture. I also don't think they lived that far east, in the map you've shown they seem to overlap with the Khakass. "Khakass" btw, is a 20th century name invented by the Soviets, they call themselves Tadar or Abakan Tatars, so in line with other Tatar groups, they could be called "Abaka"/"Abakani", maybe? Similarly, why not just call Siberian Tatars "Siberian" instead of Yerle Qalıq? They're where the term "Siberia" comes from.
 
Last edited:
  • 13Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Finally, could we get central asia as a tinto map extra? Otherwise the area will be divided between like four maps and it will probably make it harder for people to give a better review of the entire region.
 
  • 7
  • 5Like
  • 2
Reactions:
as someone who lives in Mangyshlak Peninsula having north province named Mangyshlak and south province named Mangistau while both of them being Nogai culture is hillarious to me, both of those names mean exactly same thing Mangyshlak is Turkmen/Common Turkic name for it meaning "thousand wintering places", while Mangistau is same thing in Kazakh/Nogai and considering the fact that it's the Kazakh/Nogai people that usually lived in north and Turkmen that lived in south, u probably should switch them up/rename one of them/merge them, also there's a lot of naming problems but this is only one that matters to me
 
  • 6Like
  • 3
Reactions:
Selkup people, not "Selkuper". "Vepsian" is not 100% incorrect, but "Veps" (or "Beps") is better. I would like to also mention again, that "Suomenusko" is unfit for the religion name, the biggest reason being the term 'Suomi' back then just referred Southwest Finland https://www.kotus.fi/kielitieto/nim...imus_varsinais-suomen_kylannimista.37228.news Meiou & Taxes uses Ukkousko, maybe you could adopt this term as well.
 
Last edited:
  • 7Like
  • 2
Reactions:
Hello, and welcome one more week to the weekly encounter for map lovers! This week it’s also directed at horse lovers because we will be looking at the Eurasian Steppes, plus the Urals! So let’s start with the maps without further ado.

Countries:
View attachment 1193513
View attachment 1194073
A glorious, Golden Horde! It is at its power peak, under the reign of Uzbeg Khan, so it's a much more menacing presence for its neighbors. However, it has its some internal issues that need to be managed, as you’ll notice in some of the maps, and in the future when we talk about the content for Hordes. The Golden Horde also heads its own IO, the Tatar Yoke, as shown in a previous Tinto Maps:

View attachment 1194074
We have already corrected the Ruthenian countries that are under the Horde’s Yoke, although we still have to correct the Russian principalities, which will be done in the corresponding Tinto Maps review. We’re also aware that we need to improve a bit the coloring of the IO, to mark not only the Golden Horde as the overlord of these countries, but also that Muscovy holds the title of the Grand Principality of Vladimir, which makes it the ‘enforcer’ of the Yoke. These fixes are also planned to be done in a few weeks.

Societies of Pops:
View attachment 1193514
View attachment 1194158
A bit up to the north, we have some Societies of Pops! This means that the territory of Western Siberia won’t be empty land, but will be populated by these people, which can be interacted with.

BTW, I’m not showing this week a dynasty map because, well, only the Borgijin dynasty rules over the lands of the Golden Horde, of course!


Locations:
View attachment 1194075
View attachment 1194076

Tons of locations today… You might notice that the density location is in a progression from west to east, from the most densely settled areas to the less settled ones. You may also notice that we’ve followed a design of ‘settler corridors’ in Western Siberia, setting those parts of the land that were habitable, usually on river valleys.

Provinces:
View attachment 1194081
View attachment 1194082

Areas:
View attachment 1194083

Terrain:
View attachment 1194084
View attachment 1194085
View attachment 1194086
The terrain is interesting here, as there are two main ecological areas. The first is the Steppes, Flatlands with Sparse and Grasslands vegetation, with either Cold Arid or Continental climates. And then we have the Siberian Arctics Forests, which are completely different, of course. On a note, the Urals were set as Hills, as they’re a quite settleable area, but we’ll probably make a review with your feedback, and add some mountains there.

Development:
View attachment 1194087
The whole region is not very developed, you might notice the difference with India, from last week’s Tinto Maps.

Harbors:
View attachment 1194088
There are some harbors in the Steppe region… In the Black Sea and Caspian Sea, of course! As usual, we’re open to feedback on this matter.

Cultures:
View attachment 1194089
Plenty of cultures! One note: Although we planned to work on the religious and cultural minorities of the region during the summer, we ended up not having enough time to add them. So what we’ll be doing today is showing the rough outline of ‘cultural spheres’, and then we’ll add the minorities during the review of the region. In that sense, feedback is very well received.

With that said the only note that needs to be made in terms of the cultural design is that we divided the Tatar cultural group into some differentiated regional cultures, being Crimean, Mishary, Kazani, and Astrakhani. We’re also aware that some of the cultures, as Mari and Chuvash, might be a bit displaced, as noted in the Russian Tinto Maps, so we’ll review and correct that with your feedback.


Religions:
View attachment 1194092
Regarding Religions, the matter is a bit worse, as the big Sunni blob is just because the main religion of the Golden Horde is Islam, after the conversion of Uzbeg Khan, but that’s obviously incorrect. Also, as we have been able to forecast development time on how Pagan divisions will be during this autumn, we will make a comprehensive review of the region as well, to get a good distribution of ‘Shamanist’ Paganism, Tengrism, and Sunni Islam.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1194093
View attachment 1194094
View attachment 1194095
Regarding the raw materials, the Steppes have plenty of Livestock and Horses, quite logically, although there are regions with some other goods. And up to the north, the main materials are Lumber and Fur. Apart from that, I want to mention the mineral hub in the Ural Mountains, with plenty of Copper, Iron, Gold, Lead, and Coal. That makes it a very mid and late-game interesting spot, and playing as Muscovy/Russia, I’ll tell you that you definitely want to expand into that region, as it will fulfill some of your material needs by that time.

Markets:
View attachment 1194096
Markets! Big region, with lots of markets, although you may noticed that we changed the coloring of the locations that have 0% market access, which is the case in several areas. In any case, the market centers are Kaffa, Astrakhan, Saray-Jük, Kunya Urgench, Samarkand, Almaty, and Chimgi Tura. BTW, these names are much easier to notice in the game’s UI, as they’re beside the market centers:

View attachment 1194101

Population:
View attachment 1194103
This week we’re showing only the country population mapmode, as there are some location numbers here and there which are failing, due to the already known issue with our pop editor (and which are on the way to be fixed). In any case, the whole population of the region is around 6.5-7M, of which around 6.3M are part of the Golden Horde. As I said, it’s a menacing country…

And that’s all for today! This is going to be my last Tinto Maps in a while, as I’ll be on vacation for 3 weeks during October (you might have noticed that I didn’t have any during summer), so one of the Content Designers in the team, @Roger Corominas , will step in and be in charge of the next 4 Tinto Maps. It’s in good hands, as Roger is an Experienced CD, who has been working and focused on Project Caesar for more than 3 years, at this point (this is why you might not know him from EU4, as other CDs in our team). In any case, he will be starting with the regions of Xinjiang, mostly ruled by the Chagatai Khanate, and Tibet.

I’ll keep reading and answering you during next week, and then I’ll be back in a month from now. See you!
Crimean peninsula was a trading point between the horde and Europe. I think it deserves more development. It was one of the few locations with cities inside the Golden Horde

Venetian port cities in Crimea (center at Qırım). After the Mongol conquest in 1238, the port cities in Crimea paid the Jochids custom duties, and the revenues were divided among all Chingisid princes of the Mongol Empire in accordance with the appanage system

So there should also be more independent cities.

Same can be said about Azov. The Golden Horde claimed most of the coast in the 13th and 14th centuries, but the Venetian and Genoese merchants were granted permission to settle on the site of modern-day Azov and founded there a colony which they called Tana.

So I think you can sprinkle some development there with Italian settlers
 
  • 9Like
  • 1
Reactions:
1. They belong to the same group, yes.
2. I remember checking this, there isn't clear data about it, so I was more inclined to consider that it hadn't fallen yet into Trebizond's sphere of influence.
But it should be the opposite thought, it was part of trebizond and eventually fell out of its sphere of influence as trebizond's control over the black sea coast dissipated. It seem there has only been a prince in theodoro for a few decades by game start so I would definitely give it at least some kind of tributary status towards trebizond.
 
  • 4
  • 1Like
Reactions:
hello! wondering if there will be anything similar to a religion/culture tree/groups, for example, IMO if the religion/culture is similar, (like the french cultures, or the different types of islam) then they shouldnt be as hard to control, becouse they are similar to yours (idk if i explained it correctly)
 
  • 2Like
Reactions: