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Tinto Maps #24 Korea and Japan Feedback

Hello and welcome to another week of Tinto Maps Feedback. Today, we will take a look at Korea and Japan. This area has required less rework than other ones, but still some adjustments have been made.

ADDITIONS

Added the following:
  • Locations
    • Tamura
    • Seongwi
    • Jindo
    • Heungyang
    • Namhae
    • Geoje
  • TAGs
    • Shěnyáng
  • Characters
    • ssg_jo_hwi
    • ssg_jo_yanggi
    • ssg_jo_rim
    • ssg_jo_sosaeng
    • ssg_jo_don
    • ssg_jo_inbyeok
    • kor_ja
    • kor_ko
CORRECTIONS

Renamed the following:
  • Locations:
    • Renamed Aira to Kuwabara
    • Renamed Jeju to Tamna
Areas and Provinces
  • Total rework of areas and provinces of Korea
  • Renamed Tōhoku to Ōu
Cultures
  • Renamed Jeju culture to Tamna
Raw Goods
  • Changed several Raw Goods as suggested
Terrain and Vegetation
  • Total Review
Locations
  • Redrew several Locations
Minorities
  • Added someminorities

Countries:
Countries.png

Countries color.png

Not many changes here, only the addition of Shenyang.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

Not many changes here either, but you can see that Shenyang has the same dynasty as Goryeo.

Country ranks and Government Types:
Country Ranks.png
Government Types.png


Locations:
Locations.png

As I said, no major changes here, only minor adjustments.
Locations zoom 1.png

Locations zoom 2.png

Locations zoom 3.png

Locations zoom 4.png

Locations zoom 5.png

Locations zoom 6.png

Locations zoom 7.png

Locations zoom 8.png

Provinces:
Provinces.png


Areas:
Areas.png

Provinces and areas of Korea is what has received the most change here.

Terrain:
Topography.png
Climate.png
Vegetation.png


Development:
Development.png


Harbors:
Harbors.png


Cultures:
Cultures.png

Not much change in the major cultures, although a bit of adjustment of minorities.

Languages:
Language.png

Court Language.png

Location’s language first, Court Language second.

Religions:
Religion.png


Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

Raw Materials zoom 1.png

Raw Materials zoom 2.png

Raw Materials zoom 3.png

Raw Materials zoom 4.png

Raw Materials zoom 5.png

Markets:
Markets.png


And not much has changed with the clans distribution, but here you have it:
Clans.png


That is all for today, this week we will not move far from these areas, here’s the schedule:
  • Tuesday: Tinto Flavour for Korea and Manchuria
  • Wednesday: Tinto Talks for Shintō and the Shogunate
  • Thursday: ‘Behind the Music of Europa Universalis V - Composing the Grandest Score’ video!
  • Friday: Tinto Flavour for Japan and the situations of the Nanbokuchō and Sengoku Jidai

And always as a reminder: Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
 
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Hello and welcome to another week of Tinto Maps Feedback. Today, we will take a look at Korea and Japan. This area has required less rework than other ones, but still some adjustments have been made.

ADDITIONS

Added the following:
  • Locations
    • Tamura
    • Seongwi
    • Jindo
    • Heungyang
    • Namhae
    • Geoje
  • TAGs
    • Shěnyáng
  • Characters
    • ssg_jo_hwi
    • ssg_jo_yanggi
    • ssg_jo_rim
    • ssg_jo_sosaeng
    • ssg_jo_don
    • ssg_jo_inbyeok
    • kor_ja
    • kor_ko
CORRECTIONS

Renamed the following:
  • Locations:
    • Renamed Aira to Kuwabara
    • Renamed Jeju to Tamna
Areas and Provinces
  • Total rework of areas and provinces of Korea
  • Renamed Tōhoku to Ōu
Cultures
  • Renamed Jeju culture to Tamna
Raw Goods
  • Changed several Raw Goods as suggested
Terrain and Vegetation
  • Total Review
Locations
  • Redrew several Locations
Minorities
  • Added someminorities

Countries:
View attachment 1315050
View attachment 1315051
Not many changes here, only the addition of Shenyang.

Dynasties:
View attachment 1315052
Not many changes here either, but you can see that Shenyang has the same dynasty as Goryeo.

Country ranks and Government Types:
View attachment 1315053View attachment 1315054

Locations:
View attachment 1315085
As I said, no major changes here, only minor adjustments.

Provinces:
View attachment 1315063

Areas:
View attachment 1315064
Provinces and areas of Korea is what has received the most change here.

Terrain:
View attachment 1315065View attachment 1315066View attachment 1315067

Development:
View attachment 1315068

Harbors:
View attachment 1315070

Cultures:
View attachment 1315072
Not much change in the major cultures, although a bit of adjustment of minorities.

Languages:
View attachment 1315073
View attachment 1315074
Location’s language first, Court Language second.

Religions:
View attachment 1315075

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1315076

Markets:
View attachment 1315083

And not much has changed with the clans distribution, but here you have it:
View attachment 1315819

That is all for today, this week we will not move far from these areas, here’s the schedule:
  • Tuesday: Tinto Flavour for Korea and Manchuria
  • Wednesday: Tinto Talks for Shintō and the Shogunate
  • Thursday: ‘Behind the Music of Europa Universalis V - Composing the Grandest Score’ video!
  • Friday: Tinto Flavour for Japan and the situations of the Nanbokuchō and Sengoku Jidai

And always as a reminder: Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
Number of locations on Hokkaido/Ezo must be decreased. It is just too much for so little people there. I can imagine there are locations where literally no one lived. You will not be able to build anything there, nor click there.

Why this fragmentation was even needed?
 
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I don't hope this is the so-called final setting for Jurchens.
It's feedback on Dongbukmyeon(northeastern regions) of Goryeo

View attachment 1315800


View attachment 1315802


The place names and personal names of the Dongbukmyeon (northeastern regions) of Goryeo were studied by first examining the Yuan-period(元代) Beijing regional dialect Chinese readings (北京地方語 漢字音) preserved in the Yongbieocheonga together with the medieval Korean phonetic annotations (頌音), and then analyzing each Jurchen toponym and personal name as written by medieval Korean speakers, thus allowing us to infer the original phonetic values of medieval Jurchenese or medieval Mongolian.



References: academic articles and monographs





(1) 金啓孮 女眞文辭典 (北京 文物出版社) 1984

(2) 송기증. 1994. 조선조 건국을 후원한 세력의 지역적 기반. 진단학보 78.

(3) 송기중. 1988. 태조실록에 등장하는 몽고어명과 여진어명 1-진단학보 65-66.

(4) 송기중. 1992. 태조실록에 등장하는 몽고어명과 여진어명 2-진단학보 73.

(5) 송기중. 1989. 용비어천가에 등장하는 북방민족어명. 진단학보 67.

(6) 김구진. 1973. 여말선초 두만강 유역의 여진 분포. 백산학보 15.

(7) 여채려. 2020. 용비어천가 주석에 수록된 지명에 대한 종합적 고찰. 지명학 33.

(8) 김양진. 2020. 용비어천가 소재 지명의 지리학. 지명학 33.

(9) P. G. VON MÖLLENDORFF, Manchu Grammar: With Analysed Texts (SHANGHAI:1892)




A. Ssangseong / Family Tree

View attachment 1315803

As of the year 1337, the ruler of Ssangseong was Jo Rim(조림趙琳).



B. Haran / Family Tree

View attachment 1315804

As of the year 1337, the ruler of Haran was Yi Chun(이춘李椿).



C. Xungken / Family Tree

View attachment 1315805


As of the year 1337, the ruler of Xungken is difficult to determine accurately due to the lack of historical records.



D. Sansar / Family Tree

View attachment 1315807


As of the year 1337, the ruler of Sansar was Arabuqa(아라부카阿羅不花).



E. Asha / Family Tree

View attachment 1315808

As of the year 1337, the ruler of Asha is difficult to determine accurately due to the lack of historical records.



F. Turu'u / Family Tree

View attachment 1315809


As of the year 1337, the ruler of Turu'u is difficult to determine accurately due to the lack of historical records.



G. Xaiyan / Family Tree

View attachment 1315811

As of the year 1337, the ruler of Xaiyan is difficult to determine accurately due to the lack of historical records.



H. Wexe / Family Tree


View attachment 1315812

As of the year 1337, the ruler of Wexe is difficult to determine accurately due to the lack of historical records.




I. Ulongi / Family Tree


View attachment 1315815

As of the year 1337, the ruler of Ulongi is difficult to determine accurately due to the lack of historical records.



J. Ulung / Family Tree

View attachment 1315814

As of the year 1337, the ruler of Ulung is difficult to determine accurately due to the lack of historical records.




K. Giaju / Family Tree

View attachment 1315816

As of the year 1337, the ruler of Giaju is difficult to determine accurately due to the lack of historical records.






+++++

I glad locations were added, but I'm a little disappointed with the added numbers.

For example, Great Britain Island has approximately 228 locations (after feedback), which is more than the 150 number of locations on the Korean Peninsula (after feedback).

Even more so, considering that the actual Korean Peninsula (220,138 km²) is a little larger than Great Britain Island (209,331 km²).

Moreover, the location density of neighboring Japan is the same as that of Europe.

Of course, considering the historical status of Europe, the importance of the period, and the political subdivision of the factors that subdivide the size of the location, it is understandable that the location density in Europe(and Japen) is higher than that of Korean Peninsula.

However, even so

Low Countries: +15
Iberia: +120
France: +141
Poland/Ruthenia/Baltics: +194
Italy: +5
Anatolia: +15
Russia: +153
Carpathians/Balkans: +155
Levant/Egypt: +21
Germany: +46
Maghreb: +54
West Africa: +44
Central/East/South Africa: +7
Persia/Caucasus: +4
India: +116
Steppe: +13
China: ???

The difference in the number of locations added between this European and non-European regions is a little hard to understand.

Can we at least expect feedback to be applied in the future through DLC or something after the game's release?

It's really sad that the feedback me put on map journal is in vain.

:' (
This feedback is what I really expected for the Jurchen clans in northeastern Korea. I have provided a similar opinion in the previous comment. Thank you for the update and your careful research on this region. This is my conclusion based on previous comments.
Korean Country Name =Reconstructed SurnameCorrespondent Chinese surname (Korean Pronunciation)Correspondent Manchu ClanNote
Haran = Halan
1749490549872.png
1749490557190.png
Li (Yi)Possibly Fuca
Xungken = HungkenGoryaGūwalgiya
SansarSansarLiWanggiyanSame family with Wanggika Clan of Jianzhou Jurchen
AshaJuxu = JuhuJuru 珠嚕氏
Turu'uGia'unGioro
Xaiyan = HaiyanGoryaGūwalgiyaConfirmed in Gūwalgiya Genealogy Book
Wexe = WeheXitanHitaraWehe = Stone in Manchu
Ulongi
UlungNentuNamudulu
1749491277380.png
Giaju = GiajeoYunPossibly Esuri
Secondly, on religions, I think Buddhism was prevailing around the Huncun-Tumen region and the adjacent northeastern Korean Peninsula. There are two evidence:
1. The recent archaeological excavations at Temple Sites No. 1 and No. 2 in Gucheng Village, Hunchun, Jilin, confirm that this area was one of the earliest regions where Buddhism was introduced into Manchuria.
1749492047674.png

2. The Kyongwon monument recorded that during the 12th century, local Jurchen donors from the Helan and Supin Circuits contributed funds to build temples and create Buddhist statues.
Screenshot 2025-06-09 at 13.07.59.png
Screenshot 2025-06-09 at 13.08.41.png
 
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View attachment 1315877
Dandong's name wasn't Dandong in 14th century. Its former name was Jiulian. It was abandoned when qing conquered the liaodong, and was rebuilt by Qing dynasty in 1874 as Andong county. After communists won the chinese civil war, they considered its name too imperialistic and changed it to Dandong, which means 'red east'.
Or, were there any maoists in yuan dynasty who wanted to change Andong to Dandong? LOL
I thought I had talked too much about the placenames in Manchuria.

Perhaps I should talk more about it.
 
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The Yuan lands are oddly split in two by Shenyang. Maybe we should add a Liaoyang province(kingdom rank) holding Manchuria for the Yuan and make the Shenyang(duchy rank) its vassal.
Technically, Liaoyang Province was a tool to restrict the influence of the Mongolian kingdoms (incl. Goryeo) on Manchuria. Thus, it won't be proper to adjust Shenyang to be a subject of Liaoyang.

The northeastern part of this province, or the part isolated from Shenyang, was essentially the Kaiyuan Circuit and Shuidada Circuit, categorized as hereditary Jurchen Tumens and Mingghan, then considered potential tributaries of nearby kingdoms. So did they. After the collapse of the Great Yuan, the Jurchens in Korea became subjects of the Korean kingdom, while the Sibe became subjects of the Mongols. My recent proposal aimed to strengthen the region's fragmentation.
 
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If Shenyang is kingdom-level, then the Chinese character Shen/Shim(瀋) is preferable to the two characters Shenyang/Shimyang(瀋陽)(A two-lettered title was one step below a kingdom title).

And the title King of Shen(瀋王) was a nominal title with no real power.

The title of King of Shen was a titular title, a lure to create a political conflict between Goryeo and the Three Ulus of the East.

But It would be interesting to see a non-historical plotline that gives the actual power to members of the Wang dynasty
 
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Jeonju, Namwon Provinces shape should be modified.

Screenshot_20250610_042302_Photo Editor.jpg

Current forms of Jeonju and Namwon regions are as follows.

But if you look at the topographic map of this area, it's made up of rugged terrain in the east, compared to flat in the west.

13219153735bff3080a916a.jpg

e4765f5be73ec0cd76e9f312e94b0cc29c2f813849362cf8c58472b75f0b4c8a.jpeg



So I think this is what these two provinces should shaped.

1737718653970 (1).jpg
 
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Im much more concerned about China especially inner Manchuria based of what we can see on the sides (although i wont jump to conclusions and complain until atleast the actual feedback thread is posted whenever that may be)
I doubt the feedback will change much, I also doubt it's that deep at all. China is already humongous and has a zillion locations, any more would make it borderline unplayable.
I'm just a cynical :)
 
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Es una retroalimentación sobre Dongbukmyeon (regiones del noreste) de Goryeo.

View attachment 1315800


View attachment 1315802


Se estudiaron los nombres de lugares y nombres personales de Dongbukmyeon (regiones del noreste) de Goryeo examinando primero las lecturas del dialecto chino regional de Beijing del período Yuan (元代) (北京地方語 漢字音) preservadas en Yongbieocheonga junto con las anotaciones fonéticas coreanas medievales (頌音), y luego analizando cada topónimo y nombre personal Jurchen tal como lo escribieron los hablantes coreanos medievales, lo que nos permitió inferir los valores fonéticos originales del Jurchenés medieval o del mongol medieval.



Referencias: artículos académicos y monografías





(1) 金啓孮 女眞文辭典 (北京 文物出版社) 1984

(2) 송기증. 1994. 조선조 건국을 후원한 세력의 지역적 기반. 진단학보 78.

(3) 송기중. 1988. 태조실록에 등장하는 몽고어명과 여진어명 1-진단학보 65-66.

(4) 송기중. 1992. 태조실록에 등장하는 몽고어명과 여진어명 2-진단학보 73.

(5) 송기중. 1989. 용비어천가에 등장하는 북방민족어명. 진단학보 67.

(6) 김구진. 1973. 여말선초 두만강 유역의 여진 분포. 백산학보 15.

(7) 여채려. 2020. 용비어천가 주석에 수록된 지명에 대한 종합적 고찰. 지명학 33.

(8) 김양진. 2020. 용비어천가 소재 지명의 지리학. 지명학 33.

(9) PG VON MÖLLENDORFF, Gramática manchú: con textos analizados (SHANGHAI:1892)




A. Ssangseong / Árbol genealógico

View attachment 1316014

A partir del año 1337, el gobernante de Ssangseong era Jo Rim (조림趙琳).



B. Haran / Árbol genealógico

View attachment 1316015

A partir del año 1337, el gobernante de Harán era Yi Chun (이춘李椿).



C. Xungken / Árbol genealógico

View attachment 1315805


A partir del año 1337, es difícil determinar con precisión quién era el gobernante de Xungken debido a la falta de registros históricos.



D. Sansar / Árbol genealógico

View attachment 1315807


En el año 1337, el gobernante de Sansar era Arabuqa (아라부카阿羅不花).



E. Asha / Árbol genealógico

View attachment 1315808

A partir del año 1337, es difícil determinar con precisión el gobernante de Asha debido a la falta de registros históricos.



F. Turu'u / Árbol genealógico

View attachment 1315809


A partir del año 1337, es difícil determinar con precisión quién era el gobernante de Turu'u debido a la falta de registros históricos.



G. Xaiyan / Árbol genealógico

View attachment 1315811

A partir del año 1337, es difícil determinar con precisión quién era el gobernante de Xaiyan debido a la falta de registros históricos.



H. Wexe / Árbol genealógico


View attachment 1315812

A partir del año 1337, es difícil determinar con precisión quién era el gobernante de Wexe debido a la falta de registros históricos.




I. Ulongi / Árbol genealógico


View attachment 1315815

A partir del año 1337, es difícil determinar con precisión quién era el gobernante de Ulongi debido a la falta de registros históricos.



J. Ulung / Árbol genealógico

View attachment 1315814

A partir del año 1337, es difícil determinar con precisión quién era el gobernante de Ulung debido a la falta de registros históricos.




K. Giaju / Árbol genealógico

View attachment 1315816

A partir del año 1337, es difícil determinar con precisión quién era el gobernante de Giaju debido a la falta de registros históricos.






+++++

Me alegro de que se hayan agregado ubicaciones, pero estoy un poco decepcionado con los números agregados.

Por ejemplo, la Isla Gran Bretaña tiene aproximadamente 228 ubicaciones (después de la retroalimentación), lo que supone más que las 150 ubicaciones de la Península de Corea (después de la retroalimentación).

Más aún si tenemos en cuenta que la actual península de Corea (220.138 km²) es un poco más grande que la isla de Gran Bretaña (209.331 km²).

Además, la densidad de población del vecino Japón es la misma que la de Europa.

Por supuesto, teniendo en cuenta el estatus histórico de Europa, la importancia del período y la subdivisión política de los factores que subdividen el tamaño de la ubicación, es comprensible que la densidad de ubicación en Europa (y Japón) sea mayor que la de la Península de Corea.

Sin embargo, aun así

Países Bajos: +15
Iberia: +120
Francia: +141
Polonia/Rutenia/Países Bálticos: +194
Italia: +5
Anatolia: +15
Rusia: +153
Cárpatos/Balcanes: +155
Levante/Egipto: +21
Alemania: +46
Magreb: +54
África Occidental: +44
África Central, Oriental y del Sur: +7
Persia/Cáucaso: +4
India: +116
Estepa: +13
Porcelana: ???

La diferencia en el número de ubicaciones agregadas entre estas regiones europeas y no europeas es un poco difícil de entender.

¿Podemos al menos esperar que los comentarios se apliquen en el futuro a través de DLC o algo así después del lanzamiento del juego?

Es realmente triste que los comentarios que puse en Map Journal sean en vano.

:'(
The developers are very pro-European and also very pro-Castilian. You can tell they've given Europe a lot of locations, ports, and a lot of population compared to other parts of the world. It's absurd. But if you post comments about trying to balance the game, the developers ignore your suggestions, but they do pay attention to anything that might help them add more elements to Europe.
 
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¿Podrías explicar por qué la densidad de ubicación de Corea es varias veces mayor que la de Liaoning? Preveo que en unas semanas veré otro mapa decepcionante sobre China.
The real problem is that the low density of locations in the Far East (China, Korea, and Japan) is insufficient for the entire region, but developers don't seem to care; they always focus solely on Western European culture. I share your frustration...
 
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Corea y Japón ya presentan un nivel de detalle extremadamente alto; Corea tiene aproximadamente la misma densidad que el promedio europeo, y Japón está a la par con las zonas más densas de Europa. Pensar que esto "no es suficiente" basándose únicamente en las cifras brutas de ubicaciones añadidas, en este caso particular, es (una opinión controvertida) principalmente producto de la envidia, a decir verdad.
Japan isn't on the same level of location density as Europe. More than 100 new locations were added to the Iberian Peninsula in the second revision (Iberia Map Comments). I won't even mention the other countries (Italy, France, the German region, etc.) because it's so disproportionate that it seems like they used the same EUIV map of the China and Japan region for Europa Universalis V.
So no, it's not enough, with so much history and so much to do in China and Japan and so few locations...
 
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Yes, but why are you sad about it? It has a very respectable location density.

Italy got a lot of new locations because it was likely one of the most shattered and divided regions in the Western world with also a considerable population size, Carpathia and Balkans got so many because the Carpathian region's density was criminally low compared to the rest of the surrounding regions and was essentially doubled, idk about France, but overall the final density of Europe and Korea-Japan is essentially the same, there is nothing to be sad about, in my opinion.
Agreed. Honestly of any of the map feedbacks, this was the one that needed more locations added the least. Imo still good it got some and good on the devs for doing well on this feedback, although tag changes for the Jurchens would be appreciated.
 
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To those who disagree:

The fact that you disagree, but can't really jump in and provide a stable argument on why they should have added a lot more locations than this, does in fact prove that the common "they added less locations than in Italy, muh Eurocentrism :mad:" response under almost every region with less than like 100 new locs added is usually (with some exceptions like India) more fueled by jealousy and a frustration about Eurocentric bias (both real bias and perceived ones) than by these places actually needing more location density.

EDIT: several more angry people, still 0 actual arguments on why exactly 150 locations in Korea and about 300 in Japan and a density greater than a lot of Europe are not enough. The theory stands still, until someone proves me wrong (please prove me wrong).
We don't have to prove anything to your bitter Eurocentrism (and that of the developers too). There's too much history in those countries (China, Korea, and Japan) to ignore. We could post the entire history of those countries, but it would clog up the PDX forums. Just because you're ignorant about the history and development of those Asian nations doesn't mean the rest of us are.
 
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About resources in Korea: I think there should be one more Copper in the north-east mountains and Tin somewhere on the peninsula. Tin is used in bronze, and bronze was widely used in Korea since start of its history. Koreans had it on their territory, because it reflected in korea's culture. The brightest example is Bangjja - korean bronzeware, that was widely used among high and middle class people, especially, in Goryeo period (but almost nothing has remained since that era due to japanese occupation). My recommendations (according to STVDIA GEOLÓGICA, XIV, TIN-BEARING ROCK TYPES IN KOREA, Soo JIN KIM, 1978) are Uljin and Sangdong areas.

Sources:
 
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Is "Eastern Buddhist" a work name or the final name? It doesn't make too much sense, given that technically all Buddhism is Eastern. Since it's the gamified amalgamation of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism anyway, what about calling it Three Teachings or something like that?
Agreed. Korean Buddhism or Seon/Zen Buddhism would also be more fitting names.
 
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