Tinto Maps #24 Korea and Japan Feedback

[Arumdaum]

My interest in non-European regions far exceeds that in Europe.

Are you serious? In a game that blatantly favors Europe, Japan somehow ends up with higher province density than most of Europe—despite being a historically isolated backwater. Meanwhile, China and India, two civilizations that shaped the world, get only a fifth or even less of Japan’s density. Korea, with a similar population, gets a third of Japan’s provinces.

And let’s talk about Hokkaido—a frozen wasteland with just 30,000 people—getting as many provinces as Manchuria (2 million people) or Shandong (nearly 10 million)?

Even after all these absurdly generous handouts, Japan still complains? What about Africa and South America? They’re practically erased from the map—getting only a tenth of Japan’s provinces. Look at Madagascar, a massive 600,000 km² island, reduced to a measly 81 provinces. Meanwhile, Japan, with just 370,000 km², gets 400 provinces.

So what? Compared to China? Compared to India? Can Japan even rival those two population behemoths in sheer numbers or economic power?

Let’s be clear—Europe is unquestionably the star of this era, so of course it gets preferential treatment. But Japan? It’s getting far more advantages than any other Asian region, without justification.

As for global influence—forget comparing it to China or India, two colossal civilizations. Even compared to Southeast Asia, where trade networks deeply integrated with the world, Japan remains an isolated island nation. Many African states, like the Kilwa Sultanate, had far greater impact on global commerce than Japan ever did.

So calling Japan a marginal backwater is not just fair—it’s historically accurate.

You clearly know nothing about the Qing conquests.

When the Qing rose to power, every single major war they fought—whether against the Ming, the Shun dynasty, or Zhang Xianzhong—matched or surpassed the scale of the Imjin War. Every. Single. One. And that’s not even counting their later, brutal wars of attrition against the Dzungar Khanate—the last and most powerful nomadic empire in the world. The Qing alone mobilized over 300,000 troops in each campaign, with countless cannons and firearms. Their military doctrine and capabilities were on par with, if not superior to, any other power at the time. Their use of gunpowder weapons was among the highest in the world.

And after crushing the Dzungars, the Qing then waged war against Burma. In terms of frontline length, scale of operations, and logistical challenges, the Qing’s conquests in their first century far exceeded the Imjin War in intensity. And Japan—just one invasion—is supposed to be considered more significant than China’s?

And that’s not even touching on India’s conquests.

Then explain this to me:
Why does mobilizing a single 200,000-man invasion prove you deserve more provinces than China?

China had one metropolis of 1 million people? Please. China had dozens of cities with 500,000+ inhabitants, over a dozen with 1 million, and five cities with 2 million+—and that’s just the Ming dynasty. The Qing era? Double that.

So how does your one mega-city compare to China’s urban network spanning the entire continent?

Again, let me reiterate that province density being unfair to China, India, or Africa does not mean that you should unnecessarily downplay the size, development, and significance of Japan. I'm not sure why you are suggesting that I think Japan is larger than China, which appears to be the main thing you are attacking in your post. You are attacking strawmen. I am simply saying that Japan was not an undeveloped, isolationist backwater. Which is true.

Undeveloped, isolationist backwaters don't launch major wars, have relatively high literacy, and trade with and raid their neighbors.

Ming-Qing transition was 17th century, not 16th. Qianlong's Ten Great Campaigns were during the 18th century. The Imjin War was still a massive war and the largest war of the 16th century.

edit: typos

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

The devs seem to already have said no, but personally I'd love to see a separate province for Ulleung island because of Usan, an independent kingdom that existed on the island before being fully incorporated into Goryeo in 1022. By the start of the game it'll have been a good three centuries since its demise but would be fun to revive it in a mod at least.

I've taken Miyakojima as the benchmark for the floor of location sizes, so about 160km, Ulleung misses that by alot less than half the size so thats out of the picture , Iki misses it marginally at 138km and Hirado is just within it at 163km. Shodoshima just misses it at 153. Maybe they can add Hirado? But if its not actual real life location size but map projection that would be alot harder for me to gauge, Im considering putting an image into chatgpt to calculate the pixel sizes comparing differing locations but that would take me a while

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

Unfortunately, all these are too small to be able to be properly represented.

Im atleast happy that you've responded while thats really really dissapointing i appreciate that it has atleast been confirmed rather than left to interpretation and to fester amongst the community.

Im curious is it a projection problem? Like the graphics dont mesh well or the maximum zoom would not be enough to viably display those small islands in the envision detailed? Maybe the building sprites could not be properly configured onto the location itself?

Although i do want make the observation that Hirado Island is about 163km2 and Miyakojima which is 158km2 was portrayed ingame? Shodoshima is also around 153km2. I definitely understand islands like Uleung and the Bonin islands being too small but i feel Hirado atleast should be viable? I will try to check the pixel count.

Anyways thanks for answering i really appreciate it! Thank you for all the hard work you put into this game!

 

[Goblin Slave]

My interest in non-European regions far exceeds that in Europe.

Are you serious? In a game that blatantly favors Europe, Japan somehow ends up with higher province density than most of Europe—despite being a historically isolated backwater. Meanwhile, China and India, two civilizations that shaped the world, get only a fifth or even less of Japan’s density. Korea, with a similar population, gets a third of Japan’s provinces.

And let’s talk about Hokkaido—a frozen wasteland with just 30,000 people—getting as many provinces as Manchuria (2 million people) or Shandong (nearly 10 million)?

Even after all these absurdly generous handouts, Japan still complains? What about Africa and South America? They’re practically erased from the map—getting only a tenth of Japan’s provinces. Look at Madagascar, a massive 600,000 km² island, reduced to a measly 81 provinces. Meanwhile, Japan, with just 370,000 km², gets 400 provinces.

So what? Compared to China? Compared to India? Can Japan even rival those two population behemoths in sheer numbers or economic power?

Let’s be clear—Europe is unquestionably the star of this era, so of course it gets preferential treatment. But Japan? It’s getting far more advantages than any other Asian region, without justification.

As for global influence—forget comparing it to China or India, two colossal civilizations. Even compared to Southeast Asia, where trade networks deeply integrated with the world, Japan remains an isolated island nation. Many African states, like the Kilwa Sultanate, had far greater impact on global commerce than Japan ever did.

So calling Japan a marginal backwater is not just fair—it’s historically accurate.

You clearly know nothing about the Qing conquests.

When the Qing rose to power, every single major war they fought—whether against the Ming, the Shun dynasty, or Zhang Xianzhong—matched or surpassed the scale of the Imjin War. Every. Single. One. And that’s not even counting their later, brutal wars of attrition against the Dzungar Khanate—the last and most powerful nomadic empire in the world. The Qing alone mobilized over 300,000 troops in each campaign, with countless cannons and firearms. Their military doctrine and capabilities were on par with, if not superior to, any other power at the time. Their use of gunpowder weapons was among the highest in the world.

And after crushing the Dzungars, the Qing then waged war against Burma. In terms of frontline length, scale of operations, and logistical challenges, the Qing’s conquests in their first century far exceeded the Imjin War in intensity. And Japan—just one invasion—is supposed to be considered more significant than China’s?

And that’s not even touching on India’s conquests.

Then explain this to me:
Why does mobilizing a single 200,000-man invasion prove you deserve more provinces than China?

Japan had one metropolis of 1 million people? Please. China had dozens of cities with 500,000+ inhabitants, over a dozen with 1 million, and five cities with 2 million+—and that’s just the Ming dynasty. The Qing era? Double that.

So how does your one mega-city compare to China’s urban network spanning the entire continent?

Japanese urbanization during the Edo Period was quite exceptional by global standards, surpassing China's on a per capita basis while still being behind in total urban population unsurprisingly considering the huge difference in scale. (With the caveat that urbanization rates can vary quite a bit depending on what you measure as urban)

(Source): Urban Networks in Ch'ing China and Tokugawa Japan by Gilbert Rozman

Urban Networks in Ch'ing China and Tokugawa Japan

press.princeton.edu

 

[Arumdaum]

Ulleung island is isolated enough that we can slightly enlarge it on the map for clickability... right? :')

 

[zeruosi]

I guess Japan gets so much attention because it has a unique military aristocratic class that symbolizes courage and honor. That is also why Japan was granted so much locations, to reflect all those daimyos. Its Confucian neighbors are very different. Their elites spend their days memorizing history stories and moral rules and taking exams year after year just to land a top official post. They end up seeming like a bunch of boring nerds.

I think it's just Japan's modern cultural exports that have made Westerners overly fascinated with it—nothing more.

Nobody cares about Korea's yangban aristocracy or its military dictators.
Nobody cares about China's tusi native chieftains or wei-suo garrison troops.
Nobody cares about Vietnam's Trịnh-Nguyễn War.

It's simply because Japan's anime and manga industry developed earlier and spread to the West before anyone else's. That's it.

 

[zeruosi]

Be that as it may, we don't play these games to re-enact history step by step - perhaps a minority do, at most.
Japan quickly became a colonial empire when they industrialised, so in the Player's hands this outward expansion can take place earlier.

I have no objection to that—in the end, once we hit "Start," the game ceases to have anything to do with real history.

Secondly, people have pointed out that the daimyos will carve up Japan. I view this situation as the HRE of the east - and we've come to accept that the HRE has 2x the density as France, so 1.25x honestly seems incredibly fair.

Japan only has 1.25 times the provinces of France, but what about compared to the rest of Asia? It's 3 times that of Korea, 7 times that of Manchuria, 4 times that of Han China, and 6 times that of India.

In comparison, the HRE only has twice as many provinces as France.

Thirdly, outside of colonial expansion, If you've played Japan in EUIV, there aren't many avenues. You can take Korea fairly easily and I expect the same for the Jurchen, but even if you can take bites out of Yuan you will be truce-locked until you can make it implode. If you were to jump down to the South East or Indonesia, your reach is significantly weaker, if you can even reach them early on.

I've played as Japan—it was a painfully dull experience, but even so, it was still a hundred times better than playing as the Ming.
The Ming was plagued by catastrophic floods, earthquakes, and the loss of Heaven's Mandate. By contrast, Japan commanded a vast network of tributary states. While the Ming could only claim Jianzhou and Haise as tributaries in Manchuria, Japan could effortlessly swallow up half of Manchuria and seize the Mandate of Heaven.

 

[Thorum]

Although i do want make the observation that Hirado Island is about 163km2 and Miyakojima which is 158km2 was portrayed ingame? Shodoshima is also around 153km2. I definitely understand islands like Uleung and the Bonin islands being too small but i feel Hirado atleast should be viable? I will try to check the pixel count.

With average location size around 1000 km2 in the best regions, it seems clear that three islands of 150 km2 each are very small for individual locations. The 4 Comoros islands were grouped into three locations because the smallest one is 211 km2, which is half more than Hirado.

Maybe one location, combining the three islands? No idea if that makes sense...

 

[Arumdaum]

I think it's just Japan's modern cultural exports that have made Westerners overly fascinated with it—nothing more.

Nobody cares about Korea's yangban aristocracy or its military dictators.
Nobody cares about China's tusi native chieftains or wei-suo garrison troops.
Nobody cares about Vietnam's Trịnh-Nguyễn War.

It's simply because Japan's anime and manga industry developed earlier and spread to the West before anyone else's. That's it.

I think more than that, it's the fact that Japan was able to successfully industrialize alongside Europe during the late 19th century and grow its economy rapidly during the mid-late 20th century, which has also let it play an outsized role in history since, such as by going to war with the United States in WW2. I don't think Western interest in Japanese anime, manga, and video games would have happened without everyone thinking that Japan was living in the 21st century while everyone else was still in the 20th century.

Korea was completely disregarded in EU3 and mostly ignored in EU4, but is getting at least some attention now, and I think it's a combination of both a recognition of South Korean economic/cultural power and North Korean nuclear and missiles capabilities.

China too is getting way more attention in video games now that it was even a decade ago. I think as China stays in the news, continues to grow, and remains the US' main rival, China is likely to receive more attention, perhaps even more so than Japan in the long term. It is also likely to export more of its culture, such as XHS and TikTok, without dressing it up as Japanese (Genshin Impact).

I think Vietnam's recent economic growth means that it'll likely get more attention in the future as well.

I, for one, am waiting for the Malagasy economic miracle.

 

[111asdasd1234]

I think it's just Japan's modern cultural exports that have made Westerners overly fascinated with it—nothing more.

Nobody cares about Korea's yangban aristocracy or its military dictators.
Nobody cares about China's tusi native chieftains or wei-suo garrison troops.
Nobody cares about Vietnam's Trịnh-Nguyễn War.

It's simply because Japan's anime and manga industry developed earlier and spread to the West before anyone else's. That's it.

I think the military aristocrats who govern are quite different from the armies led by scholar-officials. The former are elites under the feudal order while the latter end up as victims of an authoritarian system that looks down on martial values.

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

With average location size around 1000 km2 in the best regions, it seems clear that three islands of 150 km2 each are very small for individual locations. The 4 Comoros islands were grouped into three locations because the smallest one is 211 km2, which is half more than Hirado.

Maybe one location, combining the three islands? No idea if that makes sense...

Well none of these islands are near each other theyre all in very distinct geospatial positions on the map, but yeah fair enough. To be fair i also personally think the Comoros should get 1-2 more locations like Mwali being separated from Nzwani

 

[zeruosi]

Sick burn.

I wonder if you could say these disparaging things about England, which didn't even conquer all the Isles until some 200 years after the game's start.

No, because Britain became the British Empire where the sun never sets in the later stages of the game.
Japan didn't even begin its massive expansion and foreign conquests until the very late game—by then, it was practically the Victorian era's endgame.

 

[Thorum]

Well none of these islands are near each other theyre all in very distinct geospatial positions on the map, but yeah fair enough. To be fair i also personally think the Comoros should get 1-2 more locations like Mwali being separated from Nzwani

Maybe in dlc, but more likely for EU vi

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

Maybe in dlc, but more likely for EU vi

Well i have envisioned if they ever have a DLC for pirates like they did in EU4 they'll give a revamp to the island locations it would be cool if all the little islands could become piracy hotspots

 

[Arumdaum]

Any way to incorporate Muism into the game? I think despite Buddhism being the state religion at the beginning of the game, Muism (syncretized with Buddhism, like Shinto in Japan) is likely to have been more relevant to commoners

 

[zeruosi]

Again, let me reiterate that province density being unfair to China, India, or Africa does not mean that you should unnecessarily downplay the size, development, and significance of Japan. I'm not sure why you are suggesting that I think Japan is larger than China, which appears to be the main thing you are attacking in your post. You are attacking strawmen. I am simply saying that Japan was not an undeveloped, isolationist backwater. Which is true.

Undeveloped, isolationist backwaters don't launch major wars, have relatively high literacy, and trade with and raid their neighbors.

Ming-Qing transition was 17th century, not 16th. Qianlong's Ten Great Campaigns were during the 18th century. The Imjin War was still a massive war and the largest war of the 16th century.

edit: typos

First, I apologize for my harsh words.
I was speaking while in a bipolar episode—my emotions were all over the place.

Now, here’s why I feel this way:

In EU4, if you’ve actually played it, you’ll notice just how sloppy China and its surroundings are compared to everything else. Whether it’s province sizes, trade goods, trade zones, or even the placement of mountains and rivers—everything feels half-baked.

And if the surface-level stuff is this bad, the deeper mechanics are an absolute disaster:

• Mission trees? Broken.
• National ideas? Unbalanced.
• Social classes? Laughable.
• Disasters? Ridiculous.

Take China’s disasters, for example:

• Yellow River floods? Earthquakes? Losing the Mandate of Heaven?
• A dynasty that didn’t fall until 1644 somehow starts collapsing in 1500 for no reason, never to recover.
• That’s why Chinese players are so sensitive about this—it’s not just bad design; it’s historically offensive.

Meanwhile:

• Korea gets the Tripitaka Koreana and a harem system.
• Japan enjoys insane province density and the Shogunate mechanics.
• But China, a civilization with a far larger historical harem culture, gets nothing.
• Its social classes? Eunuchs-only (seriously?).
• The Mandate of Heaven system? A disaster generator.
• The Yellow River and Yangtze? Literally rivers of lava and acid—perma-flooding every year.

Second, Japan was an isolated backwater.
The entire East Asian region failed to participate in the Age of Exploration, exerting minimal global influence—no doubt about it. This period coincided with Europe's rise to dominance, while the rest of the world lagged behind to varying degrees.

The only significant military upheaval in East Asia was the Qing conquest. Japan, meanwhile, attempted expansion once before retreating back into its island fortress. In fact, the only time Japan projected power during the entire game timeline was during the Imjin War.

This is precisely why it’s called an isolationist fringe state. And let’s not forget—this is a game where Europe is by design the protagonist, developed by a European studio. The devs naturally understand Europe far better, which is why European nations get preferential treatment. Yet Japan—a region geographically farther from Europe than any other, with far less global influence—enjoys higher province density than France, while other Asian nations are denied even a fraction of that privilege.

 

[zeruosi]

Any way to incorporate Muism into the game? I think despite Buddhism being the state religion at the beginning of the game, Muism (syncretized with Buddhism, like Shinto in Japan) is likely to have been more relevant to commoners

It's somewhat represented in the game—albeit as an "IO" (international organization).
That said, I’d strongly recommend submitting feedback: Korea’s primary religion being Buddhism is historically inaccurate. The name itself should be changed.

 

[zeruosi]

I, for one, am waiting for the Malagasy economic miracle.

I firmly believe that economic miracles—whether they occur or not—should never take precedence over historical accuracy in our simulations.

I recently conducted an absurd comparison between Madagascar and Japan, and even in regions with comparable or even higher population densities, Japan still enjoys disproportionate provincial advantages.



As for the Industrial Revolution and economic miracles—yes, Japan did gain a head start. That’s why most Western players perceive Japan as somehow "special" and have lobbied for all sorts of unique mechanics tailored to it.

China is indeed making waves in film and gaming nowadays. This is partly due to its rising economic power, but also because younger generations are finally taking the reins of society. What I truly want to see is greater diversity in representation—not just "East Asia = Japan, case closed," or worse, Japan being lumped together with other cultures as if it were their spokesperson.

Regarding my alleged indifference to non-European regions—let me clarify: I am Asian, from East Asia. If I’m not mistaken, the place I call home is separated from yours by nothing more than a stretch of ocean. My passion for East Asia far exceeds my interest in Europe—heck, I care more about the Americas, Africa, and Australia than I do about Europe. Why? Because I am a sympathizer of native cultures. I celebrate multiculturalism and religious diversity. I reject the idea of European dominance as the default.

Now, as for my harsh criticism of Japan—it’s because it has already been given far too much. If the historical core of East Asia—China—is relegated to a position beneath Japan, then what hope do even less influential regions like Vietnam or Champa have? They would suffer even greater injustices.

 

[zeruosi]

I think the military aristocrats who govern are quite different from the armies led by scholar-officials. The former are elites under the feudal order while the latter end up as victims of an authoritarian system that looks down on martial values.

Clearly, the tusi were not scholars solely devoted to Confucian culture.

 

[William Adams]

Japanese urbanization during the Edo Period was quite exceptional by global standards, surpassing China's on a per capita basis while still being behind in total urban population unsurprisingly considering the huge difference in scale. (With the caveat that urbanization rates can vary quite a bit depending on what you measure as urban)

(Source): Urban Networks in Ch'ing China and Tokugawa Japan by Gilbert Rozman

Urban Networks in Ch'ing China and Tokugawa Japan

press.princeton.edu

View attachment 1316489
View attachment 1316490

I suggest that if you want to know about ancient China and Japan, you can learn Chinese and Japanese instead of third-party English research materials. In addition, you should understand what the “参觐交代” system is and its impact on the urban population.