Tinto Maps #24 Korea and Japan Feedback

[William Adams]

Japanese urbanization during the Edo Period was quite exceptional by global standards, surpassing China's on a per capita basis while still being behind in total urban population unsurprisingly considering the huge difference in scale. (With the caveat that urbanization rates can vary quite a bit depending on what you measure as urban)

(Source): Urban Networks in Ch'ing China and Tokugawa Japan by Gilbert Rozman

Urban Networks in Ch'ing China and Tokugawa Japan

press.princeton.edu

View attachment 1316489
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I suggest that if you want to know about ancient China and Japan, you can learn Chinese and Japanese instead of third-party English research materials. In addition, you should understand what the “参觐交代” system is and its impact on the urban population.

 

[111asdasd1234]

Clearly, the tusi were not scholars solely devoted to Confucian culture.

I agree that the tusi deserve more attention, with better mechanics and more flavor to reflect them properly.
I remember someone once telling me stories about the Yi people and other groups(he called the Yi "laoyibao")
Both the ethnic makeup and the social structure seemed really complex.

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

First, I apologize for my harsh words.
I was speaking while in a bipolar episode—my emotions were all over the place.

Now, here’s why I feel this way:

In EU4, if you’ve actually played it, you’ll notice just how sloppy China and its surroundings are compared to everything else. Whether it’s province sizes, trade goods, trade zones, or even the placement of mountains and rivers—everything feels half-baked.

And if the surface-level stuff is this bad, the deeper mechanics are an absolute disaster:

• Mission trees? Broken.
• National ideas? Unbalanced.
• Social classes? Laughable.
• Disasters? Ridiculous.

Take China’s disasters, for example:

• Yellow River floods? Earthquakes? Losing the Mandate of Heaven?
• A dynasty that didn’t fall until 1644 somehow starts collapsing in 1500 for no reason, never to recover.
• That’s why Chinese players are so sensitive about this—it’s not just bad design; it’s historically offensive.

Meanwhile:

• Korea gets the Tripitaka Koreana and a harem system.
• Japan enjoys insane province density and the Shogunate mechanics.
• But China, a civilization with a far larger historical harem culture, gets nothing.
• Its social classes? Eunuchs-only (seriously?).
• The Mandate of Heaven system? A disaster generator.
• The Yellow River and Yangtze? Literally rivers of lava and acid—perma-flooding every year.

Second, Japan was an isolated backwater.
The entire East Asian region failed to participate in the Age of Exploration, exerting minimal global influence—no doubt about it. This period coincided with Europe's rise to dominance, while the rest of the world lagged behind to varying degrees.

The only significant military upheaval in East Asia was the Qing conquest. Japan, meanwhile, attempted expansion once before retreating back into its island fortress. In fact, the only time Japan projected power during the entire game timeline was during the Imjin War.

This is precisely why it’s called an isolationist fringe state. And let’s not forget—this is a game where Europe is by design the protagonist, developed by a European studio. The devs naturally understand Europe far better, which is why European nations get preferential treatment. Yet Japan—a region geographically farther from Europe than any other, with far less global influence—enjoys higher province density than France, while other Asian nations are denied even a fraction of that privilege.

If you want an explanation for why Japan has such a high level of province density is one alot of westerners are weeaboos and two i think the devs want to depict the 战国时代 as much as possible so you have to have alot of locations of everyone killing each other

 

[Arumdaum]

First, I apologize for my harsh words.
I was speaking while in a bipolar episode—my emotions were all over the place.

Now, here’s why I feel this way:

In EU4, if you’ve actually played it, you’ll notice just how sloppy China and its surroundings are compared to everything else. Whether it’s province sizes, trade goods, trade zones, or even the placement of mountains and rivers—everything feels half-baked.

And if the surface-level stuff is this bad, the deeper mechanics are an absolute disaster:

• Mission trees? Broken.
• National ideas? Unbalanced.
• Social classes? Laughable.
• Disasters? Ridiculous.

Take China’s disasters, for example:

• Yellow River floods? Earthquakes? Losing the Mandate of Heaven?
• A dynasty that didn’t fall until 1644 somehow starts collapsing in 1500 for no reason, never to recover.
• That’s why Chinese players are so sensitive about this—it’s not just bad design; it’s historically offensive.

Meanwhile:

• Korea gets the Tripitaka Koreana and a harem system.
• Japan enjoys insane province density and the Shogunate mechanics.
• But China, a civilization with a far larger historical harem culture, gets nothing.
• Its social classes? Eunuchs-only (seriously?).
• The Mandate of Heaven system? A disaster generator.
• The Yellow River and Yangtze? Literally rivers of lava and acid—perma-flooding every year.

Second, Japan was an isolated backwater.
The entire East Asian region failed to participate in the Age of Exploration, exerting minimal global influence—no doubt about it. This period coincided with Europe's rise to dominance, while the rest of the world lagged behind to varying degrees.

The only significant military upheaval in East Asia was the Qing conquest. Japan, meanwhile, attempted expansion once before retreating back into its island fortress. In fact, the only time Japan projected power during the entire game timeline was during the Imjin War.

This is precisely why it’s called an isolationist fringe state. And let’s not forget—this is a game where Europe is by design the protagonist, developed by a European studio. The devs naturally understand Europe far better, which is why European nations get preferential treatment. Yet Japan—a region geographically farther from Europe than any other, with far less global influence—enjoys higher province density than France, while other Asian nations are denied even a fraction of that privilege.

I haven't played much China but I think to a degree there need to be some checks placed on the country to prevent it from immediately gobbling up all of its neighbors. I think this could be done in part by making its neighbors stronger. However, in general I agree that China needs more attention and development. Again, no need to disparage Japan for what China is not getting.

Most countries didn't send ships to explore. This doesn't make them backwaters. I would say that literacy and urbanization are much more important indicators of development. Still, you are incorrect in saying that Japan was isolationist and didn't project power during this period. Japan projected power when Satsuma subjugated Ryukyu and in colonizing Hokkaido. Japan attempted to exert influence in Sakhalin and also created a settlement there during the Edo period. Japanese pirates engaged in devastating raids all across the Korean and Chinese coasts, and even set up their own city-state in the Philippines. Red Seal ships traded all across Southeast Asia. There was a flourishing Japantown in Thailand. 16th and 17th century Japanese Christians sent missions to Mexico and Europe.

And much more, like the things I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[IAmBecomeDeath]

Doesn't japan need a lot of provinces for the hundreds of daimyos to expand into? Calling the devs weebs doesn't seem particularly constructive.

If you're upset about China province count then ask for more in the China map, don't go to the japan thread and try to make their region worse. It's not really a good look.

 

[William Adams]

If you want an explanation for why Japan has such a high level of province density is one alot of westerners are weeaboos and two i think the devs want to depict the 战国时代 as much as possible so you have to have alot of locations of everyone killing each other

The cruel truth of history has no place for fan boys, nor sympathy or fun. If Westerners were really fans of Japan, they should have discovered long ago that if Japan was a stronger civilization than China, why could it only stay on the small island and not acquire more territory and more resources from the Chinese mainland. Let's not talk about the distant ancient history. In World War II, Japan was ahead of China in industry, and they did so at that time, but they failed. In ancient times, you can look for records of large-scale wars between the more backward Japan and China, and the final result was that Japan failed. In ancient times, any nation living adjacent to the Chinese mainland would expand to the Chinese mainland as long as they felt they had ambition and strength.

 

[William Adams]

Doesn't japan need a lot of provinces for the hundreds of daimyos to expand into? Calling the devs weebs doesn't seem particularly constructive.

If you're upset about China province count then ask for more in the China map, don't go to the japan thread and try to make their region worse. It's not really a good look.

How do you find the motivation to try to make Japan worse? The truth of history does not matter if you feel it is bad without any factual basis. Do you know Chinese and Japanese and understand these two countries with the help of their native languages? Likewise, the Chinese accept complaints from the French that the Chinese mistake them for British, and from the Iranians that they mistake them for Arabs.

 

[Arumdaum]

The cruel truth of history has no place for fan boys, nor sympathy or fun. If Westerners were really fans of Japan, they should have discovered long ago that if Japan was a stronger civilization than China, why could it only stay on the small island and not acquire more territory and more resources from the Chinese mainland. Let's not talk about the distant ancient history. In World War II, Japan was ahead of China in industry, and they did so at that time, but they failed. In ancient times, you can look for records of large-scale wars between the more backward Japan and China, and the final result was that Japan failed. In ancient times, any nation living adjacent to the Chinese mainland would expand to the Chinese mainland as long as they felt they had ambition and strength.

Again, no one thinks Japan during this period was bigger or historically more powerful/influential than China. Complaining about giving Japan a similar amount of attention to Europe isn't going to make the devs pay any more attention to China.

 

[Arumdaum]

I suggest that if you want to know about ancient China and Japan, you can learn Chinese and Japanese instead of third-party English research materials. In addition, you should understand what the “参觐交代” system is and its impact on the urban population.

What does this have to do with Edo period Japan having a relatively high rate of urbanization?.. If you think that this is a claim made up by the West, feel free to provide a Chinese or Japanese source which disproves it.

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

Doesn't japan need a lot of provinces for the hundreds of daimyos to expand into? Calling the devs weebs doesn't seem particularly constructive.

If you're upset about China province count then ask for more in the China map, don't go to the japan thread and try to make their region worse. It's not really a good look.

I mean your the one whos decided to interpret it that way not me lol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[William Adams]

Again, no one thinks Japan during this period was bigger or historically more powerful/influential than China. Complaining about giving Japan a similar amount of attention to Europe isn't going to make the devs pay any more attention to China.

In fact, I found that many people think that if there is no problem, I don't need to speak out. I have posted a lot of information about China before, but many people ignored my posts and just talked about Japan. The result may be bad, but it is better than doing nothing.

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

Well, since they added all those provinces to Hokkaido, maybe they can add like fifty or so village/chiefdom tags for us to have an immersive experience of unifying the Ainu and kicking the Yayoi out of our islands or something. I would like to play a campaign with the Ainu. Hope they add even more provinces to Hokkaido. Performance might be a concern, but then again they can just merge locations in politically unified regions like China and Korea for more fun and immersive Ainu Clash of Clans. Just my two cents. Peace!

 

[William Adams]

What does this have to do with Edo period Japan having a relatively high rate of urbanization?.. If you think that this is a claim made up by the West, feel free to provide a Chinese or Japanese source which disproves it.

I just put forward a more correct suggestion, hoping that everyone can understand more. As for "参觐交代", it is closely related to urbanization. Your reaction shows that you lack understanding.

 

[Arumdaum]

I just put forward a more correct suggestion, hoping that everyone can understand more. As for "参觐交代", it is closely related to urbanization. Your reaction shows that you lack understanding.

I am well aware of Sankin Kotai and the effects that it had on urbanization. What I am not sure of is why you were disregarding Goblin Slave's source for being written in English, and suggesting that you did not believe that Japan was that urbanized.

 

[Arumdaum]

Well, since they added all those provinces to Hokkaido, maybe they can add like fifty or so village/chiefdom tags for us to have an immersive experience of unifying the Ainu and kicking the Yayoi out of our islands or something. I would like to play a campaign with the Ainu. Hope they add even more provinces to Hokkaido. Performance might be a concern, but then again they can just merge locations in politically unified regions like China and Korea for more fun and immersive Ainu Clash of Clans. Just my two cents. Peace!

This would be pretty cool, actually. Would also love to see more content for indigenous peoples such as the Nivkh and Chukotko-Kamchatkan speakers

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

This would be pretty cool, actually. Would also love to see more content for indigenous peoples such as the Nivkh and Chukotko-Kamchatkan speakers

Jokes aside, I love Northern Asia and I am all for more natives in that vicinity

 

[itoma_aikon]

## Importance of Court Noble and Temple/Shrine Powers in Medieval Japan

Medieval Japanese society was a complex, multilayered structure where the warrior (buke), court noble (kugyo), and temple/shrine (jisha) powers intertwined and mutually influenced each other. To deeply understand this era, it's essential to consider not only the warrior class but also the court nobles and temple/shrine powers. As the NMIH mod author for CK2 may touch upon the warrior powers, I will explain the importance and specific presence of the court noble and temple/shrine powers here.

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### Court Noble (Kugyo) Powers

In medieval Japan, court nobles weren't just imperial officials; they formed a strong aristocratic society based on "kakaku" (family status). Some scholars suggest that through marriages with warrior families, a unified aristocratic society spanning both court and military came into being, with both sides sharing culture. Living in Kyoto, they controlled vast shōen (manors), and their economic and political influence was undeniable.

Regarding court noble powers, I'm currently researching this topic. It would be appropriate to select forces from among the Tōshōke (court nobles permitted access to the imperial palace), Kokushi (provincial governors), and Kugyō Taishō (court nobles holding military and political authority).

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### Temple and Shrine (Jisha) Powers

In medieval Japan, temples and shrines held vast shōen (manors) and wielded significant economic and political power. Below is a summary of the major temple and shrine powers and their characteristics.

#### Major Temple and Shrine Powers

- Enryaku-ji on Mount Hiei (Tendai School): The head temple of the Tendai school, it possessed strong military forces (sōhei or warrior monks) and exerted considerable influence on politics. Tōnomine was one of its branch temples.
- Kōfuku-ji (Nanto Shoshū, Southern Capital Buddhist Schools): A central temple of Nanto Buddhism, it controlled the Kasuga Shrine. It was also the parent temple of Kiyomizu-dera and held extensive temple estates in Yamato Province.
- Tōdai-ji (Nanto Shoshū, Southern Capital Buddhist Schools): Known for its Great Buddha in Nara, it was a colossal temple alongside Kōfuku-ji in Nanto Buddhism. It also held extensive temple estates in Yamato Province.
- Onjō-ji (Tendai School): A powerful Tendai temple alongside Enryaku-ji, it was referred to as Jimon.
- Kongōbu-ji on Mount Kōya (Shingon School): A sacred site of Shingon Esoteric Buddhism, it controlled vast temple lands and numerous branch temples.
- Tō-ji (Shingon School): Located in Kyoto, it is one of the central temples of the Shingon school.
- Iwashimizu Hachiman-gū: An influential shrine in Kyoto, possessing extensive shōen.
- Kumano Sanzan (Hongū, Shingū, Nachi): Sacred sites for Shugendō (mountain asceticism), they had extensive temple/shrine lands and influence. In particular, in Kii Province, temple/shrine lands accounted for 80-90% of the paddy field area.
- Tōnomine: Although a branch temple of Enryaku-ji, it maintained its own influence.
- Kinpusen-ji: Located in Yoshino, it was a central site for Shugendō.

#### Other Influential Temples and Shrines

- Kanshin-in (Gion-sha), Kitano-sha, Kiyomizu-dera, Byōdō-in (Uji), Yakushi-ji, Saidai-ji, Gangō-ji, Furu-sha (Nara), Chikuzen Kanzeon-ji, Buzen Usa Hachiman, Echizen Heisen-ji, and*Hōki Daisen-ji were all organized as branch temples or shrines of powerful institutions like Enryaku-ji, Kōfuku-ji, Tōdai-ji, and Iwashimizu Hachiman during the 11th and 12th centuries.
- Atsuta-sha (Aichi), Ise Jingū (Mie), Shitennō-ji (Osaka), Kōkawa-dera, and Negoro-ji (Wakayama) were also important temples and shrines in the medieval period. In Kii Province, in addition to these temples and shrines, a power known as Kii Sōkoku also existed, involved in the overall governance of the region.

#### Zen Buddhist Temples

During the Muromachi period, Zen Buddhism received patronage from the shogunate, and the "Gozan" (Five Mountains) system was established.

- Kyoto Gozan: Tenryū-ji, Shōkoku-ji, Kennin-ji, Tōfuku-ji, and Manju-ji. Nanzen-ji was designated as a special, higher-ranking temple.
- Kamakura Gozan: Kenchō-ji, Engaku-ji, Jufuku-ji, Jōchi-ji, and Jōmyō-ji.
- Ringeka no Zen (Zen of the Forests and Rivers): This refers to Zen temples that did not receive direct shogunate patronage and operated more independently. Representative examples include Daitoku-ji and Myōshin-ji (Rinzai school) in Kyoto, and Eihei-ji (Fukui) and Sōji-ji (Ishikawa) (Sōtō school). After the Ōnin War, as the Gozan temples declined, the Ringeka no Zen temples gained more popular support.

#### Other Emerging Religious Powers

- Nichiren-shū (Hokke-shū): Gained significant power in Kyoto by attracting the support of the machishū (townsmen).
- Ikkō-shū (Jōdo Shinshū): Expanded rapidly through the evangelism of Rennyo, becoming so powerful that they formed Ikkō-ikki (Ikkō uprisings) and even confronted Sengoku daimyō (warring state lords). Its base was Ōtani Hongan-ji in Kyoto.

#### Economic Power and Urban Formation of Temples and Shrines

Many temples and shrines possessed vast shōen, giving them immense economic power. Furthermore, merchants and artisans gathered around their precincts and gates, and it was not uncommon for goyō-jiin (official temples) to form urban centers. The religious structure, with the Kamakura Gozan and Tsurugaoka Hachiman-gū at its apex, was essential for the maintenance of the Kamakura shogunate's system.

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### Conclusion

Ultimately, to comprehend the power structures, culture, and economy of medieval Japanese society, it's essential to recognize that court nobles and temples/shrines existed alongside, and often in close conjunction with, warrior families in shaping society. In particular, the presence of court noble and temple/shrine lords was indispensable to the shōen system. Some views even suggest that during the Muromachi period, the shōen system, encompassing warrior-held lands, should be seen as a new stage rather than a period of decline merely due to the reduction of court noble and temple/shrine acquisitions.

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### References

- Kuroda Toshio, Jisha Seiryoku: Mō Hitotsu no Chūsei Shakai (Temple and Shrine Powers: Another Medieval Society)
- Itō Masatoshi, Jisha Seiryoku no Chūsei (Medieval Temple and Shrine Powers)
- Kawai Atsushi, Nihon San Daibakufu o Kaibō Suru (Dissecting Japan's Three Great Shogunates)
- Enahara Masaharu, Muromachi Bakufu to Chihō no Shakai (The Muromachi Shogunate and Local Society)

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If you require more detailed information about these temple/shrine powers, please feel free to ask. If you plan to feature these forces in a game or other content, we would be delighted if you could report your progress on the forums or similar platforms!

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Correction Notes:

• Kiyomizu-dera's Affiliation: The previous text mistakenly stated Kiyomizu-dera was a branch temple of Enryaku-ji. This has been corrected to show it as a branch temple of Kōfuku-ji, which is historically accurate.
• "Kokushu" to "Kokushi": The term for provincial officials was changed from "Kokushu" (de facto rulers of specific provinces) to "Kokushi" (provincial governors) to reflect a broader administrative scope.

Correction Notes:

• Kiyomizu-dera's Affiliation: The previous text mistakenly stated Kiyomizu-dera was a branch temple of Enryaku-ji. This has been corrected to show it as a branch temple of Kōfuku-ji, which is historically accurate.
• "Kokushu" to "Kokushi": The term for provincial officials was changed from "Kokushu" (de facto rulers of specific provinces) to "Kokushi" (provincial governors) to reflect a broader administrative scope.

 

[Arumdaum]

The areas around Haeju and Mokpo should also be natural ports, no?

 

[111asdasd1234]

you should understand what the “参觐交代” system is and its impact on the urban population

Making other countries pay while you enjoy the benefits of Keynesian stimulus?

I have to say, it’s incredibly instructive even today.

 

[Arumdaum]

This would be a valid point, but your numbers are wildly different than what I could find by lightly skimming through Wikipedia, and it looks a bit like cherry picking the lower estimates for Europe and the highest ones for Korea. From a light scanning through Wikipedia:

Early Joseon:

WOW! I JUST LOOKED AT THE ACTUAL STUDY!

Those numbers for Joseon were so low that I had to look at the actual paper.

Whoever put these numbers on Wikipedia needs to be yelled at. These numbers AREN'T for all of Joseon, but rather the three (of eight) southernmost provinces. It doesn't even include Seoul or the capital region in general. I hope the devs at Paradox didn't think that these were the actual numbers for all of Joseon.

The numbers in 1648 should also be considered very low considering that it was after the Imjin War (1592 - 1598, 1 million casualties + 33% reduction in arable land) and the two Manchu invasions of 1627 and 1636-1637.