Tinto Maps #24 Korea and Japan Feedback

[TheBraveGallade]

Unfortunately, all these are too small to be able to be properly represented.

the others, maybe. but jeju not having a third, central mountain area feels wrong.

also, I'd say ullung is and important enough location to be represented, as there have been multiple recolinization attempts in this timeframe after it got massacred in a jurchen pirate invasion. and a potential naval/colonial/trade korea would definetly invest in the island for its VERY strategic location in the middle of the sea of japan.

 

[historyofasia]

Good job as always! I've done some research on the region so here's some stuff I found:

-1-The locations of Jangyeon, Ongjin, Haeju, Suwon, Aju, Seosan, Jeongeup, Yeonggwang, Muan, Yeonggam, Jangheung, Boseong, Heungyamg, Namhae, Sacheon, Geoje, Yeongil, Goju, Jeongju, Hamheung, Gyeongseong, Buryeong, Tamna, Furebetsu, Etorofu, Hanasaki, Notsuke, Kushiro, Hiroo, Yūfutsu, Abuta, Yamakoshi, Kayabe, Hiyama, Suttsu, Iwanai, Yoichi, Sōya, Monbetsu, Tokoro, Kamikita, Nukanobu, Kuji, Shimohei, Kamihei, Kesen, Motoyoshi, Oshika, Uda, Kikuta, Awa, Kamo, Tagata, Suntō, Fuji, Kitō, Watarai, Shima, Kitamuro, Minamimuro, Higashimuro, Nishimuro, Hidaka, Kaisō, Muko, Akashi, Shikama, Akō, Wake, Ashida, Sera, Toyota, Kuga, Kumage, Saba, Yoshiki, Asa, Ōtsu, Abu, Izumo, Ou, Oki, Yosa, Kasa, Onyū, Kaga, Noto, Fugeshi, Imizu, Sawata, Kamo, Akita, Kamigata, Amami Ōshima, Nakijin, Urasoe, Ōzato, Miyakojima, Ishigaki, all of Kyushu(beside Mike, Usa, Kunisaki, Koyu, Naka, Osumi, Gomu) and all of Shikoku(beside Aki, Kami, Nagaoka, Kita and Ukena) should all have some minimum natural harbour suitability

About Japan:
-2-Ōu/Tōhoku shouldn't be an area since the region was created after the Meji restoration and therefore it doesn't fit with the others
-3-The location of Yamakoshi should connected by land with the location of Abuta and be part of Iburi province
-4-The location of Furubetsu should be renamed to Furebetsu(correct spelling) while the location of Futoro to Okushiri(more relevant settlement)
-5-The location of Shibetsu should be split in two with the other one being called Menashi, the same goes for Fukushima split with Tsugaru, Rumoi with Mashike, Ishikari with Kabato, Atsuta with Hamamasu, Samani with Horizumi, Shizunai with Mitsuishi and finally Shiraoi in four with Muroan, Usu and Yoribetsu
-6-The Izu islands should either have their own location or at least be part of the closest one rather than be considered impassable wastelands
-7-Tango and Wakasa provinces should be split since there are already other provinces with only two locations in Japan
-8-Kawachi should province composed by the namesake location(which should be added as well) and Izumi

About Korea:
-9-If Korea manages to rank up to tier 4 the name of the country should just be Korean Empire as that was its historical official name
-10-Tamna was ruled by the Go dynasty
-11-Both location and province of Tamna should be called Jeju as it was the name that was used for most of this time period

9: If the game chose the dynasty names as Goryeo and Joseon, The empire name is expected to be Han. Historically, all of the three names Goryeo, Joseon and Han are translated to Korea. The kingdoms usually use 2 syllables name. The empire is expected to use a single syllable name.
10: This is interesting point. Then I suggest to divide Tamna not south/north, but west and east. Go dynasty ruled the west while Mun house(hard to call dynasty) ruled the east. Tamna was a vassal state of Goryeo, at the starting point of the EU5. It was merged to Joseon at 1404.
11: Maybe Tamna as a vassal state, but Jeju as a province or location.

 

[historyofasia]

I suggest the clergy name to be Bulseung(불승) rather than Bulja. Bulja simply mean Buddist, not the clergy.

I am glad that you pointed about Ssangseong, which was historically important.

If you don't mind, could you tell me the reference of Chimbong and the inland Jeju? I found most of the suggestions were a lot better, but didn't find the two of them

 

[historyofasia]

also, I'd say ullung is and important enough location to be represented, as there have been multiple recolinization attempts in this timeframe after it got massacred in a jurchen pirate invasion. and a potential naval/colonial/trade korea would definetly invest in the island for its VERY strategic location in the middle of the sea of japan.

I agree Ulleung is a historically important location. But the last jurchen pirate invasion around 1000, far before the EU5 starting point. Maybe this can be considered for CK3. Joseon evacuate Ulleung between 1400-1800, the most of game period of EU5.

 

[historyofasia]

---

The Kingdom of Shenyang should probably be a Kingdom rank.

They should probably also own the locations of Shenyang, Fushun and Qinhe
(probably a lot more, depending on if the unhistorical Jurchen tribes are cleaned up, which they should be)

It is historically true that the King of Shenyang was regarded as a royal title by the Yuan dynasty, but there is some doubt as to whether it should truly be considered of kingdom rank. Unlike the King of Goryeo, the King of Shenyang held more of an honorary position and is widely understood not to have exercised actual governing power. In fact, it is rather surprising that it was ever treated as an actual kingdom. (is it a vassal state?)

 

[TheBraveGallade]

I agree Ulleung is a historically important location. But the last jurchen pirate invasion around 1000, far before the EU5 starting point. Maybe this can be considered for CK3. Joseon evacuate Ulleung between 1400-1800, the most of game period of EU5.

there have been atttempts to recolonize the island that failed during the yuan domination period, and the islands were populated enough that josun had to press the evacuate button (though people still existed somewhat on the island during josun. in alt history scenarios of the timeframe, though, a naval and/or trade focused jurchen, ainu, japanese or korean nation would want it for its strategic value, as well as fisheries.

 

[historyofasia]

There can be a competition mechanism between King of Shenyang and King of Goryeo. The reason why the Mongols established the title of King of Shenyang was to threaten King of Goryeo. If he did not obey the orders of the Mongol Empire or rebelled, he would be replaced by King of Shenyang who had the same legitimacy.
In history, King of Shenyang sometimes took the initiative to seek throne of Goryeo and chose to inform the Mongol Khan to frame King of Goryeo.
However, the premise for the success of these strategies is that the Mongol Empire is strong enough. Once even Goryeo's army can defeat the Mongol army, this strategy loses its meaning.
————
For example, in 1354, because the King of Goryeo killed the family of the Queen of the Mongol Khan (the Queen was Goryeo), the Queen joined forces with the Crown Prince of the Mongol Empire and the King of Shen and ordered a Mongol army to attack Goryeo in an attempt to replace the King of Goryeo, but was defeated. This also marked the beginning of Goryeo's escape from Mongol rule.

That's a great idea. If related events are included, it would be fantastic to capture details such as the renaming of the title from King of Shenyang (瀋陽王) to King of Shen (瀋王) in accordance with a reorganization of ranks. The succession of the Goryeo royal title by the King of Shen is an excellent alternate history theme and represents the unique examples of a personal union in Korean history. I'm confident it would make for an event even more intriguing than the establishment of the military regime in CK3.

 

[historyofasia]

Very interesting work!

I have a question regarding the decision of Court Language for the Korean kingdom at this time (1337 opening). As we all know, the Hangul (or Korean alphabet) is developed by Sejong the Great in 1443, and therefore does not exist in1337. The Court language in 1337 is effectively Chinese (classical Chinese if to be exact).
I feel it would be more historically accurate and appropriate to set the Court Language in Korea at the start to be Chinese, and introduce an event to fire around 1443-ish to describe the development of Hangul and allow the player to change the Court Language from Chinese to Korean. The development of Hangul is an important culture and history event in Korea and I believe it deserve some attention. It also fits the EU5 timeline very well.

It seems you may be confusing spoken and written language. The issue between Hangul and Classical Chinese is a matter of written language. Court language still refers to spoken language, and both the Goryeo and Joseon royal families used Korean as their spoken language.

 

[historyofasia]

The Yuan lands are oddly split in two by Shenyang. Maybe we should add a Liaoyang province(kingdom rank) holding Manchuria for the Yuan and make the Shenyang(duchy rank) its vassal.

Among the eastern regions divided by the map, the far eastern area was still home to a number of nomadic societies that did not use iron tools even up to the founding of the Qing dynasty. Although nominally within the Yuan dynasty’s sphere of influence and integrated into its market system, the region was in practice beyond the reach of effective administration—something closer to a SoP in EU5 terms.

 

[historyofasia]

As a result, there should be a significant Mongolian population on Jeju Island.

p.s. 1. Jeju Island was also a major exile site for Mongolian nobility.

p.s. 2. Emperor Toghon Temür of the Yuan Dynasty attempted to build a palace of refuge on Jeju Island.

Good point. A total of 1,000 to 2,000 Mongolians moved to Jeju Island. The estimated population of Jeju Island in early Joseon was around 50,000. So if there had been no evacuation of the Mongolians, about 2% of the population would be expected to be Mongolian.

 

[historyofasia]

Added the following:

• Locations
  • Tamura
  • Seongwi
  • Jindo
  • Heungyang
  • Namhae
  • Geoje
• TAGs
  • Shěnyáng
• Characters
  • ssg_jo_hwi
  • ssg_jo_yanggi
  • ssg_jo_rim
  • ssg_jo_sosaeng
  • ssg_jo_don
  • ssg_jo_inbyeok
  • kor_ja
  • kor_ko

I’ve read the entire post and all the comments. While the changes in regions and trade nodes are certainly noticeable, I’m particularly looking forward, out of personal historical interest, to seeing whether the dynamics between the Goryeo, Shenyang, and the Ssangseong in the late Yuan period, along with the Jurchen-Korean relationship, will be given a chance to become more tightly intertwined and entangled than they were in actual history.

In EU4, the major events shaping Jurchen-Korean relations had already passed by the game’s starting point. For EU5’s start, I’m hoping we’ll see two key events related to Jurchen-Korean dynamics: one concerning the King of Shenyang, and the other involving the civil war between Yi Seong-gye and Yi Bang-won around 1400.

Although it may be a stretch to infer too much from just the map, if we were to express historical reality using EU5’s mechanics, one might describe it as follows: the Goryeo-Shenyang personal union collapses (probably already collapsed at the starting point), Goryeo and Ssangseong form an international organization, and Ssangseong’s military eventually surpasses Goryeo’s, seizing leadership within the organization and ultimately founding Joseon.

Aside from that, if Tamna starts as a county-level vassal state under Goryeo and is later given an event to be annexed by Joseon, it would not only provide excellent historical accuracy but also enable a Ryukyu-like playthrough on the Korean Peninsula.

Also, there was an excellent comment about Ssangseong’s starting status. I’d love to see that comment get a response.

 

[GamesBasket]

Nagasaki, Portugal is coming to you !

 

[zeruosi]

Well, this comment section definitely took a turn for the worst.

I don't know why you were banned again, because last night when I was browsing, I saw your speech. The conflict between us is really not that big, bro. At least compared to others, I am the most peaceful.

It continued with a Western user who promptly attacked Paradox for "eurocentrism" and that East Asia was underdeveloped compared to Europe, even though Japan and Korea have comparable location densities with many parts of Europe, and then made the dreaded argument for basing location density on actual square kilometers: an absolutely terrible argument that, if anything, would have us be forced to reduce the amount of locations in both East Asia and Europe to make space for tens of thousands of location in Central Africa (you know how big that thing actually is in square kilometers once you get rid of map distortion, right?).

I admit this, I think Africa, Australia, or South America also need a lot of places to reflect their local culture, religion, and political situation. I am not opposed to reducing the number of locations in East Asia or Europe. Because what I have always pursued is balance, we are all human, aren't we?

Finally, it reached a climax with what I can only describe as a full-blown rant by a Chinese user, incensed that Japan had... Accurate location density, for a fairly developed region in Eurasia that also featured massive political fragmentation. The only argument that made a lick of sense was the one on Hokkaido not needing that level of density, since it was outside of the Japanese state anyway and was inhabited my small Ainu tribes for the entirety of the game's timeframe, but the issue once again is that, rather than blame it on a honest fuck-up by someone who was put in charge of making the locations for Japan and then applied the rules for Feudal Japan onto what's today a Japanese island but back then was a barely inhabited frontier region, this had to be treated once again a direct insult to the entire nation of China, for whatever reason.

The guy goes as far as to say that the only reason Japan gets this level of attention at all is because anime and manga made it popular in the West, and otherwise the region was "a tiny corner on the edge of the world". Many of the arguments there, repeated over and over by the guy, got so egregiously wrong, biased and malicious that I just have to write a response here, even if it ends up getting me in trouble. It's no surprise that Chinese users are extremely hostile to Japan and sometimes Korea as well because of well known nationalist rivalries in East Asia, but I draw the line at people spreading blatant historical revisionism to fit their nationalist narrative without anyone properly calling that bad behaviour out.

A few minutes before you posted this post, I had just had a conflict with a racist from China and was banned for a month as a result. And my opposition to Japan stems from its location density being 2-3 times higher than any other region in Asia. Even considering the degree of political fragmentation, this is not very reasonable. Because India and Southeast Asia, which are also highly fragmented, have not received treatment from Japan.

And thousands of chieftains in southwestern China also did not receive treatment from Japan. So Japan is an exception, and I don't like exceptions. Just like I don't like straight boundaries. (Sorry, American, this is my personal aesthetic problem.)

The only explanation that can be obtained for this is that people care more about Japan, regardless of the reason. For a long time in the past, Japan was the only representative of East Asian culture. There are certainly many reasons in between, but one of the main ones is that Japan became a superpower for a period of time in modern times and demonstrated its influence, improving its position through industry and finance, and gaining a first mover advantage, which in turn promoted the rise of Japan's cultural industry and exported their culture to the world.

Nowadays, the most dynamic population in the world mostly grew up during the prosperous period of Japanese cultural export. Between 1980 and 2010, so without going into detail, I will simply attribute it to the output of the Japanese anime industry. This is not an error.

You could even put it this way: to be clear from the start, China has historically been an isolationist backwater in world history. If anyone respectfully disagrees, please provide examples of China colonizing the New World, waging great wars with European powers, and becoming a global superpower. Unfortunately I simply don't recall any grand Ming fleet bombing London or Paris, nor Chinese trade monopolies in the Netherlands or the Caribbean. At best a one-time vanity fleet that brought giraffes from Africa before being rapidly dismissed. "The cruel truth of history has no place for fanboys", I think that's how someone else had put it.

Perhaps China's fleet did not bomb London or Paris, but it did bomb Mexico. The last breath before the fall of the Qing Dynasty still posed a threat to non powerful countries.

The vast land area, population, and resources are the backbone of China. The so-called nomadic rulers are changing faster, not to mention that the Jurchen people are not nomadic at all. The invasion of nomadic tribes is for the purpose of obtaining resources, and rough land means that nomadic invasions cannot obtain resources at all, and the so-called faster switching is also wrong.

Because the two dynasties that followed lasted for over 250 years, the so-called intermediate time of faster switching has been completely forgotten by you. Moreover, the detailed plots of land do not hinder the rapid invasion of nomadic tribes, as China is in a fragmented state and each fragmented warlord rarely forms alliances. So AI nomads can quickly invade every small warlord state and achieve integration.

For the same reason, I would argue against similarly reductive histories of Japan that some Chinese users here have promoted. Contrarily to the stereotypes of a closed country, Japan in this period had among the deepest contacts with Europe out of all East Asian nations, both diplomatically, with missions being sent from Japan to Rome and Spain, and even more so militarily, with Japanese warfare being revolutionized by the introduction of European muskets at Tanegashima, a kind of weapon used very effectively in the Imjin War too. Not only Japan was a country uniquely influenced by European contact in its military developments, but contact continued even in the era of the Sakoku laws: the Catholics were expelled, but the Dutch were allowed to maintain a port in Dejima, and through that port European culture was still allowed to come in controlled ways, bringing new ideas to the country. This is how Japan in the 18th century had access to European treaties on anatomy that greatly improved their medical knowledge. Socially and economically too, the Edo period was a period of growth and cultural refinement, one that was also decisive for Japan's later successes in the late 19th century. Because, indeed, the rapid industrialization of the Meiji era wasn't a freak accident that happened out of nowhere, it happened because it was built on top of the prosperity, urbanism and literacy that had grown in the whole Edo period, and without that foundation it would have been unlikely for the Meiji revolution to be as successfully as it did. Indeed, Japan was in a uniquely ideal position to kick off its rapid industrialization program, and that was thanks to the fact during the 18th century the country was a wealthy, dynamic and growing society, in spite of its nominal isolation from international commerce and its military that ceased developing after the Sengoku Jidai.

There are also counterarguments to this. After the lockdown, the Netherlands did indeed retain an island as a stronghold, but shortly thereafter, Japan began a complete lockdown. Not only is the Netherlands not allowed to enter Japan, but neighboring countries such as North Korea, Dongning (with the surname of Guo), and Annam are also not allowed to enter Japan. Japan began a complete process of isolationism, while at the same time, China, although isolationist, still retained its basic trading ports.

By the way, the Ming Dynasty also sent missions to Europe and even requested the Crusaders. In the late Ming Dynasty, the spread and depth of Western learning to the East far exceeded the influence of Japan's Lanxue (European knowledge).

However, this process was disrupted by the Qing Dynasty, which also led to China being imprisoned under the policy of ignorance towards the people. The emperors of the Qing Dynasty were aware of the progress in Europe. Emperor Kangxi had direct correspondence with Louis XIV, and the Forbidden City was home to numerous European missions and missionaries who brought cutting-edge scientific achievements.

But these things were all blocked by the Qing emperor, and at the same time, the literacy rate and education level in Qing China plummeted, almost two-thirds. At the same time, foot binding, an extreme form of oppression against women, also appeared on a large scale in the Qing Dynasty.

At the same time, there was a population explosion in the Qing Dynasty. China's population reached an unprecedented 400 million, accounting for half of the world's population at that time. The per capita resource ownership plummeted, and the Qing Dynasty also relocated the population of Manchuria. Resulting in the complete abandonment of Manchuria and overcrowding in the Han region.

In summary, the argument that Japan had deeper contact with Europe was not valid during the Ming Dynasty, but may have been valid during the Qing Dynasty. But both sides are almost equally closed off.

To blame anime and manga of all things because you think China isn't portrayed correctly in some random European game reeks of insecurity and jealousy. Take your nationalist spats elsewhere, they're doing no good to the game, to yourself, they keep giving the Chinese community a really awful look and don't even seem to be reaching the Japanese folks you seem to want to piss off. There's barely any of them on the forums anyway.

If this level can be considered as nationalist rhetoric and shouting, as well as hoping to anger the Japanese people. Why don't you think about your speech in last year's post.

 

[Streamlet]

The only explanation that can be obtained for this is that people care more about Japan, regardless of the reason.

I think this is absolutely the main reason in every region where we see more detail, and I find it strange that people want to avoid saying it. It's not necessarily a bad thing, as it makes sense to design a game based on the areas where players will actually focus, even though I disagree with that design choice on a personal level.

For a long time in the past, Japan was the only representative of East Asian culture. There are certainly many reasons in between, but one of the main ones is that Japan became a superpower for a period of time in modern times and demonstrated its influence, improving its position through industry and finance, and gaining a first mover advantage, which in turn promoted the rise of Japan's cultural industry and exported their culture to the world.

Nowadays, the most dynamic population in the world mostly grew up during the prosperous period of Japanese cultural export. Between 1980 and 2010, so without going into detail, I will simply attribute it to the output of the Japanese anime industry. This is not an error.

I think it goes back further than this, there was already a European fascination with Samurai, katanas and everything in the 1800s, though that discussion is probably getting too off-topic for this thread

 

[zeruosi]

I think this is absolutely the main reason in every region where we see more detail, and I find it strange that people want to avoid saying it. It's not necessarily a bad thing, as it makes sense to design a game based on the areas where players will actually focus, even though I disagree with that design choice on a personal level.

I don't know why, people want to hide their preferences. And explain it through various reasons, but in reality, regardless of the reasons, preferences and injustices that arise exist. "It's better to admit that compared to other regions that I don't care about or even dislike, I prefer Japan."

I think it goes back further than this, there was already a European fascination with Samurai, katanas and everything in the 1800s, though that discussion is probably getting too off-topic for this thread

This is also related to Japan's Meiji Restoration at that time and gradually becoming an equal country with Europe. In contrast, China is shedding its ancient halo, and Japan is gradually replacing China as the region that carries the Eastern fantasy of Europeans.

Until the Sino Japanese War, China was defeated. Japan has completely replaced China's position since then until now. Japan is considered a representative region of East Asian culture and history. But this is clearly wrong and lacks diversity, even forming a stereotype.

Taking Tinto as an example, since the release of the map, a considerable number of people have explained that Japan mainly believed in Buddhism rather than Shintoism at that time, but it is unclear why Dev refused to modify it to conform to history and firmly used Shintoism.

This is clearly an extreme stereotype that Japan should believe in Shintoism.

 

[I Couldn't Decide]

Taking Tinto as an example, since the release of the map, a considerable number of people have explained that Japan mainly believed in Buddhism rather than Shintoism at that time, but it is unclear why Dev refused to modify it to conform to history and firmly used Shintoism.

This is clearly an extreme stereotype that Japan should believe in Shintoism.

Shinto and Buddhism are not mutually exclusive: plenty of people consider themselves to be both, Shinto gods are sometimes equated to bodhisattvas, etc. Portraying Japan as Buddhist would be just wrong, not in that Buddhism wasn't widely practiced but in that it would be a severe oversimplification of the religious landscape. So Paradox just makes "Shinto" refer to both the actual Shinto practices and beliefs and Buddhism as it was practiced in Japan. They use it because Shinto is so strongly associated with Japan, not because they think the Japanese were exclusively Shinto.