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Tinto Maps #25 - 8th of November 2024 - South East Asia

Hello, and welcome to another week of fun unveiling of the map of Project Casar. In this week’s Tinto Maps we will be taking a look at South East Asia, so without further ado let’s get started.

Countries
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Quite a variety of countries in the area. The regional power in the decades before 1337 was the Khmer Empire, although at this point they are already in decline and have lost much of their previous hegemony. On the west, the fall of the Burmese Pagan Kingdom and the following Mongol invasions gave rise to the disunited kingdoms of Pinya, Sagaing, Prome, and Toungoo, while in the south the Mon kingdom of Hanthawaddy (also known as Pegu) also split apart. On the center, the decline of the old Lavo Kingdom and its subjugation to the Khmer gave way to the emergence of the Kingdom of Sukhothai when Khmer started its decline too, and Sukhothai is emerging as the dominant Thai kingdom in the area. However, Ayodhya is already gestating the rise of another great kingdom, as King Ramathibodi, the founder of the Ayutthaya Kingdom is already poised to gain power in the region. On the east coast, the Kingdom of Đại Việt is under the orbit of the Yuán, with constant conflict with the southern Hindu kingdom of Champa.

Societies of Pops
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A region very rich in Societies of Pops, which will make it definitely an interesting area.

Dynasties
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The dynasty of the old Pagan Empire is still alive in Prome, with many other dynasties in the region having ties with it, while the different Thai dynasties also have ties among each other.

Locations
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Provinces
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Areas
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Unfortunately, currently the name of the sea area encroaches too much into the land (this will be fixed, don’t worry), but the blue area that gets underneath that name is Chao Phraya.

Terrain
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Tropical and jungle almost everywhere, with quite a bit of comparison between the southern flatlands and the northern mountainous areas.

Development
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Not as developed as the surrounding India or China, but the main centers of power (like Angkor, Pagan, and Sukhothai) are a bit more developed.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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A quite variety of cultures, although the southern areas haven’t had their minorities done yet so there will be even more variation there.

Languages
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As an addition from this week one, we have a new map to show with the languages. Keep in mind that this area hasn't had any language families or dialects done yet, so there is a bit of grouping.

Religions
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Again, keep in mind that minorities are not done, so there will be more variation added inside the Theravada block, as there has to be still quite a bit of Hinduism presence in Khmer (its conversion from Hinduism to Buddhism at that point was one of the causes of its decline), and quite a bit more of Satsana Phi among all the Tai peoples.

Raw Materials
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Quite a variation of resources, although dominated mainly by lumber and rice.

Markets
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The commerce is dominated by those countries benefiting from sea trade routes, but the emergence of a strong Ayutthaya Kingdom in the middle will for sure cause a change in the balance of powers.

Population
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Khmer is still the most populated, but other countries around don’t fall that far behind, especially when they manage to unify their areas a bit. There’s also a couple of locations appearing as 0 population that is definitely a bug that will have to be fixed.

That is all for this week. Join us next week when we set sail to take a look at the maritime part of South East Asia by taking a look at all the archipelago of Indonesia (including the Philippines). Hope to see you there.
 
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I prepared some questions:

1-Is Dai Viet an empire? If yes then why isn't the word empire on the map?
2- Is Dai Viet a vassal of Yuan or just a tributary? If it's just a tributaty then I hope you guys change the way that they are portrayed on the map otherwise Asia is gonna end up being very green.
3-Is there any unique mechanic or events regarding the Nam Tien in the game atm?
4-Are Mong Lem and Chiang Hung tributaries or direct vassals of Yuan or Dali?
5-Are there any events regarding the rise of Lan Xang, Malacca and Ayutthaya?
6-On the same note is there any event regarding the sack and decline of Angkor and of the Khmer Empire?
7-How many formable tags can the people of Burma restore/form, are Pagan, Ava, Konbaung and Myinsaing all different tags or just various dynasties of the same tag?
8-Can Sops. become tributaries or vassals of any country(even multiple ones at the same time)?
9-Are there any events regarding the fundation of the cities of Bangkok and Ayutthaya?
 
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xxTesa said:
I think we really need to change the color of the Yuan, there is really too much green in Asia, we see it in India, China, Indochina, not to mention Khmer. It is difficult to tell the difference between the tributaries and the independent countries which are almost the same color.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we're not happy with Yuan's current color either.
 
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And it should have been mentioned in the past that the Shan states' belief in Theravada Buddhism began after the 16th century, at least since Bayinnaung conquered them. Since Muang sao's faith is not Theravada, why should the Shan states be allowed to believe in it earlier?
 
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I prepared a big post for Malaya but since it's (correctly) categorized with Maritime South East Asia, it'll have to wait another week. :p

One thing I'm going to propose for Malaya is to represent that people lived on the coast and along rivers, with large tracts of rainforests unexplored until the 1880s, so it should look more like the Amazon or Siberia than modern Malaya.
To illustrate, here are the location maps for my two proposals, one with 42 locations and one with 31 locations.
malayalocations.png
malayaaltlocations.png
These are the historical routes to cross the peninsula:
malayaroute.png

(Source is Wheatley, The Golden Khersonese: Studies in the Historical Geography of the Malay Peninsula before A.D. 1500)

So naturally I'm going to propose adding more impassable land to the northern peninsula as well.
For example like this:
impassable.png

Oh and by the way, the Perlis locations seems to extend too far north? It shouldn't even be called Perlis in this time period, but that's for next week I guess.
 
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ArVass said:
I think Yuán, Khmer and Delhi sharing a very similar tone of light green is a very big problem, because it's hard to determine whose vassals are the intermediary states are.

For example, if I didn't already know whose vassals are the two Vietnamese polities were, I would have no way of telling based on the map if they are Yuán or Khmer tributaries.
Click to expand...
Yes, Yuan color is most definitely going to change.
 
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Looks good.

A bit of a general question: around Bangkok, there are six (almost seven) locations with over 100k population, for a total around a million.

Will more locations be added there? If not, how will you make sure the game balance is similar to regions with population-densities but way more locations, hence avoiding these huge locations at game start (exceptions like Paris notwithstanding)?
 
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This dev diary has finally convinced me that the current aproach of "darker colours at the borders and less saturated at the interior" is a mistake which makes the map look ugly. Tropical climate almost looks like a desert. I would urge for an aproach of colouring more similar to EU4 to be employed.

That being said i do wonder how the mandalas will be represented. Is it simply just nations wuith less overrall control? Can we create tributary webs that stretch through the entirety of SEA. Can we create IOs representing mandala empires?

Also, will angkor wat be its own unique building?
 
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matfer13 said:
I prepared some questions:

1-Is Dai Viet an empire? If yes then why isn't the word empire on the map?
2- Is Dai Viet a vassal of Yuan or just a tributary? If it's just a tributaty then I hope you guys change the way that they are portrayed on the map otherwise Asia is gonna end up being very green.
3-Is there any unique mechanic or events regarding the Nam Tien in the game atm?
4-Are Mong Lem and Chiang Hung tributaries or direct vassals of Yuan or Dali?
5-Are there any events regarding the rise of Lan Xang, Malacca and Ayutthaya?
6-On the same note is there any event regarding the sack and decline of Angkor and of the Khmer Empire?
7-How many formable tags can the people of Burma restore/form, are Pagan, Ava, Konbaung and Myinsaing all different tags or just various dynasties of the same tag?
8-Can Sops. become tributaries or vassals of any country(even multiple ones at the same time)?
9-Are there any events regarding the fundation of the cities of Bangkok and Ayutthaya?
Click to expand...
1. It currently doesn't have a specific rank refined (it defaults to a duchy but that's obviously not how it's going to be). The full name doesn't appear because of size.
2. They are a tributary
3. Dai Viet have unique content, but I can't go into detail on exactly what.
4. Of Yuan
5. For Ayutthaya yes, for the other two not right now afaik
6. There is some content for decline of Khmer, yes
7. They are currently dynasties
8. Yes (although a country can only have one overlord)
9. Yes
 
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