Tinto Maps #26 - 15th of November 2024 - Indonesia

[SupBros]

there is no such thing as Australia. it doesnt exist

Imagine the Oceania Tinto Maps gets posted and all the maps are upside-down

 

[ica2322]

Well, as native Minangnese, i would say you have to separate it into different languages from Malay. It's not mutually intelligible, both ethnic become understand each other due to proximity only (a lot of Minang in Kampar and Pekanbaru, and Negeri Sembilan), and it creates some dialect continuum in the bilingual area.

If it's not possible to make it separate language, at least make Minang as Malay dialect in the next update.

 

[Catsley]

Honestly if you guys do go for the split of spices you can easily represent them by breaking up into 3 groups: Seed spices (fennel, coriander, cumin etc.) would be more common, bark spices (cinammon and cassia) spread them across southern India and Indonesia, and fruit spices (black pepper, long pepper, & cardamom) which would be rare and highly sought after.

Cloves & Saffron can be their own thing with a very high base price range (similar to cloves in EU4) and the cloves would be found in the far moluccas and Coromandel coast and drive gameplay for the spice trade routes.

Similarly Vanilla, Chile peppers and Cocoa can be their own thing and drive colonization of the new World.

EDIT: Saffron could be in a very few locations of persia, kashmir valley, andalusia and so on...

I like this idea, but I think there's a good case for grouping slightly differently. First of all, pepper is the spice of all spices and Europeans named many other things after it for a reason. Melegueta peppers, chili peppers, etc. were all named that way because the 'spiciness/piquant quality/pungency' of pepper was the thing that was highly sought after, and people in the period categorised them together as a result.

So, if we think about how the game mechanics work in terms of class demand for particular goods, it would make more sense to bundle 'Piquant Spices' together. The elite want pepper, but they will take melegueta or chilis in its place. It's just a shame we can't have different qualities attached to different locations.

What you have labelled seed spices could be called that, or we could also have a category for common, relatively easy to grow spices with a wide distribution. Call it 'Common Spices', say.

Finally, we could have a good/category that represents the rare, high grade spices that are highly specific in their distribution. Cloves, nutmeg, cinnamon, saffron etc. These could be Rare Aromatics.

With these three categories I think you could have a pretty functional representation within the market dynamics. Pepper being its own beast, with its imitators attempting to cash in on that specific demand (Piquant Spices). A relatively widespread distribution of every day spices (Common Spices) without diminishing the demand for the rarer stuff. A few special locations producing the very rare and therefore highly valuable spices that were the lifeblood of the spice trade, excluding King Pepper (Rare Aromatics/Spices).

Edit: worth adding that I think this scheme would best reflect how at least Europeans grouped these spices in the period. Cloves, nutmeg, cinammon, etc. are fairly interchangeable as aromatic demonstrations of your capacity to serve rare and exotic food to your guests. Fennel just isn't going to cut it in the same way though!

 

[LordThanatos]

When I have access to fruit spices in india, why should I go to west africa or mexico? The rationale beyond the whole discussion is about the uneven geographical distribution of spices, hence the geographical differentiation. A solution might be to simply give a bunch of historically important spices their geographical distribution, while keeping the less important ones in the broad category of spices. The developers would choose how many individual spices to represent to get a balanced and historically sound gameplay.

When I first asked this question in the anatolian tinto maps, they explicitly told me it would be better to address this on the Indonesia tinto maps, so it is not off topic at all.

The answer is easy: competition, just like it was historically. The reason a European state would trade with Africa for Grains of Paradise is to get a cheaper alternative to the Indian peppers being traded through the Arab world (It's the same good under the @Flower_Marlin system). The reason you'd go to America is to try and find a new route to Indian spices to sell at lower prices than your competitors. (And discover Chili Pepper and all the American crops, gold, furs, tobacco and other goods which are just as enticing to trade back to Europe in the process - along with climates perfect for cash crops such as sugar)

Just one example case. With a regionally split spice system, there's no reason that Grains of Paradise (An "African spice") would compete with black pepper (An "Indian Spice") or long pepper (An "Indonesian Spice") That completely removes the entire historical reason that the Grain Coast was a valuable territory. This is actually a benefit that this grouping has even over having all the spices as separate goods.

A North African or Iberian power having the market access to Grains of Paradise then incentivizes other powers to try and find better routes to those same Indian and Indonesian peppers to try and get their own source of spice and get a cut of the profits, or compete for market control of West Africa.

it will still retain a generality of spice, but also will have flavour to it.

The gameplay reason is exactly the same, Europe should buy spices from around the world at gigantic prices. Split by region will force them to trade with every region of the world to satisfy their needs

None of the categories of the Flower_Marlin spice system are European (Edit - Correction: Seed spice is largely European, the other two have no European spices), so a geographic system has no benefit over it. If I recall correctly, the only spice producing locations we saw in Europe seemed likely to be saffron, which is explicitly separate in the system and only in a few select locations such as Andalusia or Greece. If you wanted to compete with Spain for Saffron under this system, you'd need to race them to colonize or trade with saffron producing nations such as Iran, thus driving demand for colonial or trade ventures naturally. A regional spice system would not be able to relay that the spice in Andalusia is the same one growing in Iran.

Edit: I should add, if you play a country that does have access to one of the spices, you're still incentivized to try and control other locations which produce a spice that fulfills that same market niche - and not just because doing so gives you more quantity. Not controlling them means having to share the market with other powers that get that control. Muslim traders kept the source of the nutmeg they traded a secret and later the Dutch had a constant battle to keep nutmeg from coming under other colonial powers which would replant it elsewhere (The British eventually managed to grow it in Sri Lanka and other colonies). Monopoly and breaking monopolies were arguably some of, if not the largest forces driving exploration and are a great incentive for play.

 

[Caracus]

I demand trial by galley. Come fight me in this natural looking arena spot!

 

[ibvfteh]

The answer is easy: competition, just like it was historically. The reason a European state would trade with Africa for Grains of Paradise is to get a cheaper alternative to the Indian peppers being traded through the Muslim world (It's the same good under the flower_marlin system). The reason you'd go to America is to try and find a new route to Indian spices to sell at lower prices than your competitors. (And discover Chili Pepper and all the American crops, gold, furs and other goods which are just as enticing to trade back to Europe in the process)

Just one example case. With a regionally split spice system, there's no reason that Grains of Paradise (An "African spice") Would compete with black or long pepper (An "Indian Spice") That completely removes the entire historical reason that the Grain Coast was a valuable territory.


None of the categories of the flower_marlin spice system are European, so a geographic system has no benefit over it. If I recall correctly, the only spice we saw in Europe was likely to be Saffron, which is explicitly separate in the system and only in a few select locations such as Andalusia or Greece. If you wanted to compete with Spain for Saffron under this system, you'd need to race them to colonize or trade with saffron producing nations, thus driving demand for colonial ventures naturally. A regional spice system would not be able to relay that the spice in Andalusia is the same one growing in Iran.

you have converted me. Now I'm in with the idea of Flower_Marlin (@Flower_Marlin , you should make a separate thread also tbh)

 

[aantia]

I'm surprised the orang asli are an SoP. I didn't think they ever had a unified identity, or ever formed a coalition to fight other groups.
You'd kind of expect them to have an endonym if they had, rather than just using the Malay word for aborigines.

 

[otaman1]

Krakatoa/Tambora related events?

 

[Pondar]

Why are there so few Societies of Pops? There are many of them in the interior of Borneo, the rest of the islands are inhabited by pygmy populations. Or is it because most of them are hunter-gatherers?

 

[ingenieux]

That's actually a very interesting suggestion, let's see what we can do about it.

There was a whole thread about that topic https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ices-could-be-implemented-and-useful.1693213/

 

[Kvesir]

Maybe building based countries instead of estates?

Sufi orders as building-based countries that help spread Islam is an excellent idea! We would have around 10 of such "countries".

 

[Herrebrugh]

Shouldn’t there be more spices?

View attachment 1216617

Nice meme, though 'mi' is more the Middle Dutch spelling; according to my intuition, and in the Geïntegreerde taalbank this is confirmed: 'mi' in the Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal is only used in fragments from the first half of the sixteenth century (or 1550's). It would more likely be 'my' or 'mij'.

It'd also be 'ghij sult', not 'sal'. Saying 'jij zal' is Modern (post-1800) Dutch (though I wouldn't be too surprised if it was used before that).

 

[FleetingRain]

To color them they have to control the majority of locations surrounding the wasteland, in this case they don't.

Considering wastelands are inside provinces now, shouldn't it be the majority of locations in their province instead? Or the majority of locations in their province surrounding it, if you wanna be perfectly accurate.

 

[CapnMunch]

Papua language map will go crazy

 

[FleetingRain]

Where is the Orangutan society of pops?

Not paying taxes, that's for sure

 

[purplephoton]

Papua language map will go crazy

Inb4 they make it all one culture
"Yeah guys, we're behind schedule and our effort is better spent on more important regions, so we'll just let you tell us what it should look like; for now it's just Papuan as a placeholder."

 

[purplephoton]

Where is the Orangutan society of pops?

They rejected population censuses and returned to monke.

 

[Aquilegia]

Does tree cover and population growth have a connection? (and can jungle/forest be chopped down to cropland). Because my main concern is: Can Java support that population despite being almost only jungle?

Is there some modifier/mechanic that gives Java more arable land/potential population than for instance Borneo?

I'm also curious where Java's population stats comes from, did it not experience growth from game start till 1815 (4.5 mil in 1815 according to Raffles' census)?

 

[Alilolo]

The court language of Aceh and Pasai should be Malay, european explorers only noted a noticeable local accent when speaking Malay to a king who belonged to the newer Bugis Dynasty in Aceh hundreds of years later

 

[Paulatim]

The answer is easy: competition, just like it was historically. The reason a European state would trade with Africa for Grains of Paradise is to get a cheaper alternative to the Indian peppers being traded through the Arab world (It's the same good under the @Flower_Marlin system). The reason you'd go to America is to try and find a new route to Indian spices to sell at lower prices than your competitors. (And discover Chili Pepper and all the American crops, gold, furs, tobacco and other goods which are just as enticing to trade back to Europe in the process - along with climates perfect for cash crops such as sugar)

Just one example case. With a regionally split spice system, there's no reason that Grains of Paradise (An "African spice") would compete with black pepper (An "Indian Spice") or long pepper (An "Indonesian Spice") That completely removes the entire historical reason that the Grain Coast was a valuable territory. This is actually a benefit that this grouping has even over having all the spices as separate goods.

A North African or Iberian power having the market access to Grains of Paradise then incentivizes other powers to try and find better routes to those same Indian and Indonesian peppers to try and get their own source of spice and get a cut of the profits, or compete for market control of West Africa.


None of the categories of the Flower_Marlin spice system are European, so a geographic system has no benefit over it. If I recall correctly, the only spice producing locations we saw in Europe seemed likely to be saffron, which is explicitly separate in the system and only in a few select locations such as Andalusia or Greece. If you wanted to compete with Spain for Saffron under this system, you'd need to race them to colonize or trade with saffron producing nations such as Iran, thus driving demand for colonial or trade ventures naturally. A regional spice system would not be able to relay that the spice in Andalusia is the same one growing in Iran.

Edit: I should add, if you play a country that does have access to one of the spices, you're still incentivized to try and control other locations which produce a spice that fulfills that same market niche - and not just because doing so gives you more quantity. Not controlling them means having to share the market with other powers that get that control. Muslim traders kept the source of the nutmeg they traded a secret and later the Dutch had a constant battle to keep nutmeg from coming under other colonial powers which would replant it elsewhere (The British eventually managed to grow it in Sri Lanka and other colonies). Monopoly and breaking monopolies were arguably some of, if not the largest forces driving exploration and are a great incentive for play.

Regional refers to the broad origin of the spice, not its localization. If zanzibar starts producing cloves, it would produce moluccan spices nonetheless. Generally it might be possible to categorize spices in different ways, like "peppers", "sweeteners", "antibacterial" and so on, even though it becomes pedantic and lacks immersion IMHO.