Tinto Maps #26 - 15th of November 2024 - Indonesia

[Adx97]

Is there a way to form Malacca Sultanate?

 

[crowdemon]

Nice work, thanks for showing the region.

 

[ArVass]

They violate their rules all the time, I guess that they show wip maps and tinto talks are not the main focus of the dev group, leaving to inconsistencies.

Yeah, which is why I keep bringing attention to it (as I did in many previous TMs)

 

[Arga_Akhmada]

@Roger Corominas

Hello, as an Indonesian, specifically a native Javanese from Java, I appreciate the effort put into the map, thanks a lot. But let me evaluate its historical accuracy.

I have researched quite a lot about my nation's history, based on some valid historical manuscripts. So I will enumerate some key takes I think are important, I would really appreciate if these would be considered officially:

- Tegal has always been part of the Javanese cultural sphere and was never under the Sundanese realm. It is historically significant to associate Tegal with Majapahit as early as 1337. Two key sources support the delineation of Majapahit's western borders. The Letter of Bhujangga Manik identifies Barebes (modern-day Brebes Regency) as the border, the writer was Sundanese and he put it as a Javanese territory, it corresponds to the area referred to as Tegal on the map. Additionally, Tomé Pires' Suma Oriental mentions that the border of Java extended to Cirebon further west. However, this likely reflects a later period, during the late Majapahit era in the 15th century. This distinction is crucial when considering the Islamization of Java as, the Kingdom of Sunda implemented a strict coastal entry ban on Muslims, a policy aimed at preventing the kind of widespread Islamization that occurred in Majapahit-controlled Java. By the late 1400s to early 1500s, Tegal and Cirebon had already become Islamized Javanese regions, clearly separate from Sunda.

- The term Malayu (not Melayu, which reflects a later Malay pronunciation) originally referred to the island of Sumatra, as evidenced in the Nagarakretagama. The name Sumatra itself is derived from the Samudra Pasai realm, a later designation. On this map, Melayu here should more accurately represented as Jambi, which was the first territory identified as a Majapahit tributary within Malayu (evidently the largest archaeological site in Sumatra is in Jambi). Dharmasraya, arguably the most important province in Melayu, is notably absent from the map; it should be located slightly inland from Jambi. The map also inaccurately includes Siguntur, which was not a significant entity at the time (or even culturally correct). The region now known as West Sumatra was historically referred to as Manangkabwa. The polity of Aru should be depicted as a unified entity, as Pannai did not exist as a separate region. Similarly, Aceh, as it is known today, did not yet exist; the dominant power in that area was Samudra Pasai. Other territories, such as Tamiang and Lamuri, were separately enumerated as Majapahit provinces.

- Island of Lombok's polity was called Gurun. Its provinces are Sukun, Taliwang, Dompo, Sapi, Sanghyang Api, Bhima. It was possible that Gurun also controlled other islands outside Lombok, most notably Dompo in Sumbawa. The possible reconstruction was that Gurun was a kingdom that controlled these areas east of Bali, centered in Lombok, then they were defeated in an invasion under commander Nala so the entire area fell under Majapahit.

- For a provinces mapmode, the primary source should be the Nagarakretagama, which provides a list of royal titles corresponding to Majapahit provinces. One of the most glaring inaccuracies is the designation of "Trowulan" as a province. Trowulan is a modern Javanese corruption of "Antarawulan," which referred to a district on the outskirts of the Majapahit capital, not a a region on its own.

The provinces could be more accurately represented as follows:

• The "Province of Trowulan" area in the map should be renamed Singasari or Tumapel, corresponding to the present-day Malang area.
• The "Province of Surabaya" should be renamed Kahuripan/Janggala, as Surabaya was a small domain within Kahuripan/Janggala during this period.
• A new province named "Majapahit" (it was the name of the capital city) should be added to encompass the areas around the capital (today's Mojokerto).
• The "Province of Pajang" in this map should be made into "Kadiri", centered in Daha (modern Kediri city)
• Pajang therefore should be made its own province to the northwest of Kadiri, corresponding to today's Surakarta and entirely inland like Majapahit.
• Mataram roughly corresponds to Yogyakarta province today
• The easternmost province should be its own named Blambangan, which borders Singasari/Tumapel in the west and Bali in the east.
• Madura should be its own province.
• Demak did not exist in 1337; instead, Paguhan could represent the western border, located inland near the boundaries with Mataram and Pajang.
• Lasem and Tuban should also be included as significant provinces.

I think that's what I can say to be the more important input from me @Roger Corominas I hope the team can receive this input to improve the historical accuracy. I highly suggest reading Nagarakertagama translation by Prof. Pigeaud, it is extremely helpful in helping to understand this region of around this time (written in 1365 by a Majapahit courtier).

 

[jinggachingu]

First of all the Iban did not have that massive distribution back then, they only spread out in the 1700s-1800s.
View attachment 1216577

Kepercayaan: Throughout Indonesia and before recently across all of Southeast Asia there was an organic blend of various schools of Hinduism and Buddhism that melted into local indigenous belief systems. It is a somewhat similar situation to what happened in China, but there was even less differentiation between the different religious systems. Thus western Indonesia and Malaya should be dominated by a religion called Kepercayaan with rural areas and eastern Indonesia following their indigenous religions fully. It is also likely that throughout mainland Southeast Asia at this point there were likely still many who weren’t fully converted to Theravada Buddhism so you could justify having minorities scattered throughout mainland Southeast Asia, especially in remote and low control areas, but I don’t have any information about locations for them so I’d understand their exclusion. Yet for gameplay, it would allow for more varied possibilities as players can try to stamp Kepercayaan out (as happened historically) or try to revive them. You could justify giving them mechanics similar to what I or others proposed for the mahayana/sanjiao/whatever blob in the China Tinto Maps, but you could also justify having them function in a unique way mechanically as well. Representing buddhism, indigenous religions and hinduism separately builds a religious conflict into the game that I don’t think existed historically outside royal courts and patronage. Kepercayaan means belief in Indonesian and is already used by the government as a catchall name for religions that aren't christianity or islam and are descendants of this blended religious landscape. It's an anachronistic name, yes, but I know of no alternative.

Edit: You could call the Minangkabau religion: Adat.

I would not call the Minangkabau religion "Adat" because it means "Traditions" and it is a widely used word everywhere in Indonesia.

I will not use Kepercayaan at all because it is a modern term used by the Traditionalists which has a lot of political connotation. I don't think using anachronism is necessary when there are already local religions that somewhat cover that. Even if you want to use it to represent "syncretism", you should use "Aliran Kepercayaan" instead of just "Kepercayaan" because "Kepercayaan" = Faith, while "Aliran Kepercayaan" = Way of Faith. "Aliran Kepercayaan" is how the traditionalists describe themselves anyway.

There are two major groups of "religions" you can use in Java instead of "Aliran Kepercayaan": Sunda Wiwitan and Kejawen.

Sunda Wiwitan is the monotheistic (not animist) native religion of the Sundanese people that is still in practice today despite not being approved by the government. Still, these people technically don't violate the constitution since the Indonesian constitution approves (only) monotheistic religions.

Kejawen is technically not a single religion. In fact, it is not even a religion at all. It is how the people refer to sets of mystic practices in Java, which are widely varied from one block of the island to the next. If you really want to group a religion in Java, you should use Kejawen because this is more widely used nowadays and how the Javanese people describe this "religion" in modern time as well, while Aliran Kepercayaan has a lot more political connotation it.

Now, Hindu and Buddhism, I know the game itself has its own limitations, so I am saying this just as food for thought instead of "change this!". Technically you are correct to make Javanese Hindu in a sense, that everyone in Indonesia should be Hinduist because Hindu culture persists in the archipelago and only recently getting pushed back by a certain group of religion (you know who you are). I need to also note that many people also practice Buddhism in Java in tandem with Hinduism because, well, as I said, everyone is technically Hinduist, and even later after the people converted to Islam, they were technically still a Hinduist

Specifically for Buddhism, what I want to note, is that a lot of practices in Indonesia, religion-wise, not just for Buddhism, often incorporate local mystic practices which made every religion that ever existed there, except Christianity, different than their counterpart in the rest of the world by how much the religion incorporate local traditions. So for Buddhism, I'd suggest differentiating the Buddhism practiced there other than "Mahayana" (Using Vajrayana also works if you want to differentiate Tibetan Buddhism, though it is not exactly representative of Indonesian Buddhism, or Buddhism in general).

 

[jinggachingu]

“But Indonesia did have organized religions, Hinduism and Buddhism! But while that satisfies criterion 1, were Hinduism and Buddhism really a fundamental part of pre-Islamic Indonesian society? Would your average Indonesian peasant been a 'Hindu' or a 'Buddhist'? The little evidence we have suggests no. In all of Indonesia, Hinduism and Buddhism had the greatest impact in Java. But even in Java in the 14th century during the Majapahit empire, which was the height of Hindu Javanese civilization,1


Similarly, while the Indian caste system was known in Java, it "seems to have had no validity in actual life."2 Hindu dietary laws also had little impact on what commoners ate. One 14th-century Javanese poem contrasts the Hindu rules for food with what people actually ate (Nagarakertagama 89:5 and 90:1):3

....

Outside Java, people were even less attached to Indian religions. For example, one Sumatran king (Adityavarman) encouraged Buddhism in the mid-14th century. But once he dies, "nothing more is heard of Buddhism." Adityavarman's "demonic form of Buddhism" involving "rites of human sacrifice, the drinking of blood and the rattling of human bones in ecstatic dances" might actually have scared any potential converts out of the religion!5 And in many places in Indonesia there just weren't any Buddhism and Hinduism in the first place.

So when most Southeast Asians converted to Islam, they weren't converting from Hinduism to Islam, which we know from India didn't happen that much. The vast majority of Indonesians were converting from animism to Islam, which we know can happen much more easily. This animist heritage, more so than Indian religions, would be what shaped initial perceptions of Islam in Southeast Asia.”

This is absolutely not true, and I say this as a Muslim who lives in the most conservative region in Indonesia.

It is common knowledge that Islam was spread in Java by Wali Songo (the Nine Walis) by incorporating local HINDU traditions and oratory culture into Islamic traditions. That was how Islam rapidly spread among the Peasants, and why you could see Hinduist tradition in Indonesia pre-2015 (it's not a specific date because there is no scholarly article yet about it because Academicians here tend to not do research that will put Islam in a bad sight, but the pushback against Islam-Hinduist traditions was only begun recently). Even in Sumatra, Indonesian Peasants are absolutely Hinduist and if you came to Aceh, the most Islamicized region in Indonesia, you could still see Hinduist traditions and cultures incorporated as Islamic traditions, surprisingly, even more than Java despite Aceh being known to be more conservative and traditional. I will say that regions like Borneo and Sulawesi, have a lot more influence from the local culture, at least from what I saw in the media, I don't know for sure because I haven't been to those places.

And as for "dietary laws", the notion itself already started on the wrong foot, assuming that Hinduist is the same everywhere or that it dictates a golden rule that every practitioner has to adhere to the way Western religions do. Even Buddhism here, despite practicing Mahayana, is different than Mahayana in India or China, because it incorporates local esoteric practices.

"Currently Hinduism and Buddhism seem way to monolithic in the religious map mode, the makeup should be a lot like Mali with a common animist population ruled over by Hindu/Buddhist elites. (Nobles/Merchants)"

That being said, I do somewhat agree with this.

The people practiced Hinduism, Buddhism, and local religions in tandem, and even after Islam came, it did not change until modern days (or the Hinduist culture wouldn't exist to this day, and only getting pushback RECENTLY. It will be a misrepresentation no matter what they do if they keep the Western ways of "religion".

That's why I suggest, Sumatra, having a Hinduist/Muslim/Local religious population ruled by Buddhist elites, Javanese with Kejawen in Java ruled by Hinduist elites while Sunda has Sunda Wiwitan ruled by Hinduist Elites as well.

Also, Aceh should've been majority Islamized by this point. I know technically academicians and scholarly articles said Islam wasn't even there by this time, but my counter-arguments, the oratory traditions actually suggest staunch refusal against later Majapahit invasion because the people were already islamized at this point and they don't want a Hindu overlord (I know technically Oratory tradition cannot be used for indicating "a specific dates", but the oratory tradition specifically mentioned before Majapahit invasion which was around 1350s).

 

[EmoPro]

Why is Orang Asli and other several Society of Pops also exist as a majority culture in the same provinces they exist as SOP?
Does this make them behave like a migratory tribe that will exist in the background when they get culture converted into Malay?

 

[Edd212]

Islam was spread in Java by Wali Songo (the Nine Walis)

Speaking of which, I would really like to see the Wali Songa represented in historical events that spread Islam to Indonesia.

 

[Phet1945]

I think ligor city aka modern day Nakorn Sri Thammarat and Pattani (One was capital of Ligor and another was capital of Langkasuka) need to be natural harbor by default because both of them are prosper from maritime trade since Sukhothai Era which make both of them end up being such a rich city for a long time that make them try to rebel against Siam a lot specifically for pattani that become malacca alternative after ligor lose Malacca to Portugal accidentally in the reign of Ramathibodi II.

 

[pansitkanton]

In general, a lot of states are too large, other examples including Ma-i and Sanmalan.

In fact, there is no convincing evidence that Ma-i historically existed.

The historicity of Madya-as is also disputed which was raised in an old EU4 thread (which I cannot link as the site tags my action as spam-like). This seemed to have been pieced together from ethnogenesis myths of the Akeanon (10 Bornean Datus) and of the Hiligaynon/Capiznon/Kinaray-a (Hinilawod).

I was hoping that these areas (including the Waray of Samar and Leyte) could have instead been society of pops / unlanded tags. Or since they did have structured societies but are not as unified as say Tondo, they could be countries named after the major ethnic groups of the Visayas.

 

[Banda_connoisseur]

I'm writing my master's thesis on the Banda Islands in the early 17th century so I wanted to expand a bit on previous comments regarding Banda.

Why Banda Should be a Location:

Prior to the 19th century the Banda Islands were the only location on earth where the spice nutmeg was found. Throughout the 14th century it became not only a cosmopolitan location with Arab, Javanese, and Chinese traders showing up in increasing numbers, but a trade emporium for the southern Malukus as well.
Documentary evidence for trade contact with the Chinese emerges in the mid-14th century, though archaeological finds of 12th-century Song Dynasty trade goods suggest contact might have happened a bit earlier (the role of indirect trade with China remains poorly understood for the period). Regardless, by the 14th century, Chinese, Javanese, and Arab traders start showing up in droves, to the point of turning the island of Neira into something of an ethnic exclave. The Majapahit empire also seems to have had some influence at its height here according to Javanese sources.



Due to this historical position I strongly feel that the Banda Islands deserve their own in-game location.


What would a Banda Islands location look like?

1. Population
   We do not have a clear picture of the population numbers for the early 14th century. Inferences from 16th-century Portuguese and Dutch estimates suggest a population numbering in the thousands. I would guess 6-8.000 is probably in the right ballpark, especially considering influxes of foreign traders for the 16th century.
   
   As a side-note, the population for the Malukus in general and Ambon in particular seems quite on the low side to me. I'm way less knowledgeable in this area though.
2. Development
   Banda's glory days as a centre of trade are still ahead, and it was never very developed beyond the village level to begin with. Low development (though higher than neighbouring Seram) would be the way to go.
3. Raw materials
   It goes without saying that the trade good for Banda would be spices.
4. Terrain, Vegetation, Climate
   Banda is known to have pretty hilly terrain, and was covered with forests. As such 'hills' would probably make the most sense, as would 'tropical' and ' jungle'.
5. Culture, Language, Religion
   In 1337 the Bandanese were not yet as cosmopolitan as they would become a century later. Including them in the Seramese/Timorese culture/language/religion groups is the most logical option.
6. Harbour
   The island of Neira possessed a protected natural harbour which could accomodate dozens of ships. While it's no Singapore or Manila I feel that it should have at least some representation.
7. Government type
   This one is tricky. Contemporary Chinese and Javanese sources are silent on Bandanese societal organisation. Later Dutch and Portuguese sources mention aristocratic elites (the orang kaya) organised in two sets of village alliances. Based on archaeological findings Lape suggests a division based on one group assimilating new foreign characteristics (Malay culture, Islam, trade with Java) versus the other one keeping to the old ways (non-Islamic religion, native culture, trade with China). At no point prior to the conquest/genocide by the Dutch in 1621 does there seem to have been an overarching entity controlling all the islands.
   
   Considering you elected not to add any polities for the rest of the Malukus, having no government at all might be the most sensible (if unsatisfying) option.

Sources:
Lape, Peter. "Contact and conflict in the Banda Islands, Eastern Indonesia 11th–17th centuries", Brown University, 2000.
Lape, Peter. "Political dynamics and religious change in the late pre-colonial Banda Islands, Eastern Indonesia", World Archaeology 32, no. 1 (2010): 138-155.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

Why are there so few Societies of Pops? There are many of them in the interior of Borneo, the rest of the islands are inhabited by pygmy populations. Or is it because most of them are hunter-gatherers?

That's actually a great question. Is it possible for a Pop to live on a location owned by a country, not be part of an SoP, but still not actually be part of that country?

 

[ArVass]

That's actually a great question. Is it possible for a Pop to live on a location owned by a country, not be part of an SoP, but still not actually be part of that country?

The closest thing to this seems Tribal pops. They just don't do anything and basically cannot be interacted with any meaningful ways it seems

 

[Pondar]

The closest thing to this seems Tribal pops. They just don't do anything and basically cannot be interacted with any meaningful ways it seems

It seems that Johan mentioned that hunter-gatherers are implemented in this way.

 

[Paulatim]

I'm writing my master's thesis on the Banda Islands in the early 17th century so I wanted to expand a bit on previous comments regarding Banda.

Why Banda Should be a Location:

View attachment 1217191
Prior to the 19th century the Banda Islands were the only location on earth where the spice nutmeg was found. Throughout the 14th century it became not only a cosmopolitan location with Arab, Javanese, and Chinese traders showing up in increasing numbers, but a trade emporium for the southern Malukus as well.
Documentary evidence for trade contact with the Chinese emerges in the mid-14th century, though archaeological finds of 12th-century Song Dynasty trade goods suggest contact might have happened a bit earlier (the role of indirect trade with China remains poorly understood for the period). Regardless, by the 14th century, Chinese, Javanese, and Arab traders start showing up in droves, to the point of turning the island of Neira into something of an ethnic exclave. The Majapahit empire also seems to have had some influence at its height here according to Javanese sources.



Due to this historical position I strongly feel that the Banda Islands deserve their own in-game location.


What would a Banda Islands location look like?

1. Population
   We do not have a clear picture of the population numbers for the early 14th century. Inferences from 16th-century Portuguese and Dutch estimates suggest a population numbering in the thousands. I would guess 6-8.000 is probably in the right ballpark, especially considering influxes of foreign traders for the 16th century.
   
   As a side-note, the population for the Malukus in general and Ambon in particular seems quite on the low side to me. I'm way less knowledgeable in this area though.
2. Development
   Banda's glory days as a centre of trade are still ahead, and it was never very developed beyond the village level to begin with. Low development (though higher than neighbouring Seram) would be the way to go.
3. Raw materials
   It goes without saying that the trade good for Banda would be spices.
4. Terrain, Vegetation, Climate
   Banda is known to have pretty hilly terrain, and was covered with forests. As such 'hills' would probably make the most sense, as would 'tropical' and ' jungle'.
5. Culture, Language, Religion
   In 1337 the Bandanese were not yet as cosmopolitan as they would become a century later. Including them in the Seramese/Timorese culture/language/religion groups is the most logical option.
6. Harbour
   The island of Neira possessed a protected natural harbour which could accomodate dozens of ships. While it's no Singapore or Manila I feel that it should have at least some representation.
7. Government type
   This one is tricky. Contemporary Chinese and Javanese sources are silent on Bandanese societal organisation. Later Dutch and Portuguese sources mention aristocratic elites (the orang kaya) organised in two sets of village alliances. Based on archaeological findings Lape suggests a division based on one group assimilating new foreign characteristics (Malay culture, Islam, trade with Java) versus the other one keeping to the old ways (non-Islamic religion, native culture, trade with China). At no point prior to the conquest/genocide by the Dutch in 1621 does there seem to have been an overarching entity controlling all the islands.
   
   Considering you elected not to add any polities for the rest of the Malukus, having no government at all might be the most sensible (if unsatisfying) option.

Sources:
Lape, Peter. "Contact and conflict in the Banda Islands, Eastern Indonesia 11th–17th centuries", Brown University, 2000.
Lape, Peter. "Political dynamics and religious change in the late pre-colonial Banda Islands, Eastern Indonesia", World Archaeology 32, no. 1 (2010): 138-155.

The size of the islands as a whole would definitely fit as a location. I think that IF they choose to rework the spice raw good, they should also add this location as well.

I am wondering though, what would stop ternate from making a sprawling colonial empire using the wealth of controlling the market of origin of nutmeg and cloves? Would pop limitations be enough? Besides, given the huge spread of control via sea, I would assume that such wealth could be in principle obtained and secured by the winner of the western Indonesia power struggle, especially using Javanese population.

 

[ljanitor]

are you far enough in development to do testplays? I love amount of detail you are putting into every region, however, all added tags in later patches of EU4 resulted in ahistorical colonization outcomes - in the endgame, every empty province was colonized (including ones hardly reachable even in late 19th century), while places, that should have been colonized as first ones, remained under control of their original countries (like aztecs, mayans and indonesian tags), or we would end up with continent spanning african empire and so on. So while I like all those countries you are putting there, I also hope we will see more realistic endgame.

 

[Apukispay]

Don’t put away your boats yet though, as next week we will continue our seafaring adventures and take a look at Oceania. See you there.

We will see Antartica before they show us the Americas

 

[ArVass]

We will see Antartica before they show us the Americas

I'm pretty sure Antarctica isn't actually in the game

 

[King_Potat]

I'm pretty sure Antarctica isn't actually in the game

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, my precious idea of colonizing King George Island and then getting an army of penguins to do a WC is ruined.

 

[guinea prince]

"South China Coast" all the way to the Philippines and Indonesia sure is doing some heavy lifting.