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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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about elevations maybe add more hills in the toulouse area and bretagne and normandy and alsace areas.
france isnt really flat flat there is lot of hills and prairies
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The Black prince is 6 years old at game start, I don't think he's and would only be given his first command in 1347 during the Crécy campaign when he was 16, but even then it was actually William de Bohun who was in charge of the army. So I think he's a bit young for an appanage all things considered.
Edward was created Prince of Wales in 1343, which is 6 years after the game starts. It's a little ahistoric I agree, but I would prefer Wales being something like an appanage than being represented as a vassal of England.
 
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Brittany as so much potential as a colonial and tall nation like portugal so i hope brittany will not be instant vasalize by france and be at least capable of some tall and colonial gameplay and why not be a celtic empire this would be so cool
 
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That cultural map :cool:

Thank you for updating your notion of culture, hopefully we'll see this level of cultural granularity in general (where it makes sense obviously).

This is going to be really good for roleplaying and replayability too. Great stuff!
 
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For provinces of "Verdun", "Nancy" and "Metz" :

I can suggest you :

Vedun => "Barrois", it's the name of this province anyway.
Nancy => In french "Lorraine" or in lorrain "Lourène"
Metz => in french " Lorraine Allemande" or moselle/rhine frankish "Dèitsch Lothréngen"

Edit :
Raw Goods:

In lorraine, we don't produce any olives, but !
Toul and Metz => change olives to wines (our vignobles are really old in this two province, "côte de Toul" and " Côte de Moselle")
Sarrebourg => olives to salt, ( Marsal, Vic and Moyenvic, near Sarrebourg produce salt since medieval era.
 
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I am also wondering how the 100 years war gonna be handled. And if we gonna have a chance to save Joan of Arc etc.
Tbh it was more a joke than anything else for me.

I wouldn't mind if there's some meme mechanic with a possible union with French king and Joan akin to Orleans sisterhood in eu4

But, in a normal playstyle I just guess it won't mention Joan, for the better.

Cause imo she wasn't the one who changed the course of the hyw, when she came it was already set that Charles and his generals would've won ultimately
 
Beautiful! One question though, is there a reason for the province of Cornouaille being so big? Compared to the rest of the map, the Breton lands seem a little less province-dense, and I feel like Cornouaille could be split into two provinces, one with the locations of Sant-Brieuc and Treguier, and the other with Brest and Quimper. But then again, I probably don't know the entire history of that region - so I'm merely asking, and do take this with a grain of salt.
 
If French cultures are represented in such a comprehensive way (which is awesome), I don't know why Iberia has so few cultures and blobs.

Asturleonese as a single culture could be two cultures: Asturian and Leonese. Mirandese can also be added in the border between Portugal and Castile/León

We can also have the Andalusian culture in Iberia. That is the Spanish-speaking inhabitants of southern Spain (who happen to have a particular identity and dialect of Spanish). In that sense, we would have an Andalusi culture (inside some Arab or Maghrebi culture group) and the Andalusian culture (inside the Iberian culture group).

Iberia could also have a Cantabrian culture (which some lingüists classify as a dialect of Spanish, even if it's mostly extinct today, but I'm sure it wasn't back in 1337).

Then there's also the Mozarabic culture, which were the Hispanic Christians living under Muslim rule, which could be a minority (and in some cases majority) in some locations in Granada and the Moroccan territories in Iberia.

It's kind of weird to see the HRE and France so fragmented, specially in terms of culture, and have Iberia pretty much unified, specially Castile.

If Occitans are split into their dialects, I'm sure Castilians can as well. Even Murcian and Extremaduran could be added.

Even if, sadly, some of these dialects will be extinct in the next couple of year in our timeline, back in 1337 the Castilian/Spanish language wasn't at all unified. The first grammar of a unified Castilian language was written in 1492 and the Real Academia de la Lengua, which standarised the language, was created in 1713. Even if King Alfonso X began using Castilian (mostly the variant from Toledo) as the court language during the 13th century, the reality of the language elsewhere, and in rural areas, was a series of dialects and dialect continuums, which have sadly slowly becoming extinct in the last 200 years and will eventually die in the 21st century.

(Fun fact: Some rural areas of Colombia (and perhaps elsewhere in Hispanic America) still have linguistic traits of such dialects, many colonists came from places such as León, Cantabria, Andalusia and Galicia and brought with them their own linguistic features, that were different from the standard Castilian of Toledo/Madrid)
You are depicting dialects as if they are seen within contemporary reality, very different from what was seven centuries ago.

For example, Andalusian dialect differentiation with the rest is mainly a consequence of time, for which there aren't any records until modernity. Same for Murcian and Extremaduran. For Murcian in fact it was influenced by the Catalan pops that lived there already in 1337, mixed with Castilians after way more time passed. There are some words in Murcian dialect that have a clear derivation from Catalan/Valencian.

For Asturleonese is the name of the language, it doesn't mean that Asturian, Leonese and Mirandese are different but then simulated as grouped together in the game, because there were no such languages separated because they were the same if named that way (if named Asturian, Leonese or Mirandese depending on the people and place, it's the same language at the end, that is why nowadays it is named/kwown as Asturleonese). And then this culture/language can be considered as a whole originated in the 9th or 10th Century in the kingdom of Asturias and then followed in the Kingdom of León to the South.

In summary, as the Reconquest slowly progressed, the languages and cultures that originated in the North, gradually advanced towards the reconquered lands to the South, in most of the cases displacing (or integrating/converting part of) the Muslim population to the remaining Muslim Iberian countries or to North Africa. Dialects of Castilian language were mainly the result of time passed and some mix (see Murcian). Way different in this respect about cultures from France, the Low Countries or Germany, to put some examples.
 
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Where did Limoges go?

Its current ruler is the heiress to Brittany, Joanna of Penthièvre, who this year marries Charles of Blois, the second son of the current count of Blois, Guy I.

Charles of Blois was one of the two pretenders to the Breton throne (through his wife's right) in the Breton War of Succession (1341-1365), being supported by his maternal uncle, the King of France, and antagonized by the English-supported claimant, John of Montfort.


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And the Lordship of Albret should be in the map too, they became very important in politics over time.
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By the way, I don't really think the southern lords should be portrayed as vassals, they are at HRE levels of independence, they have their own wars between each other and they changed sides at times between England and France, In fact, I would say all the non Capetian vassals are at HRE levels of independence, they are only kept alligned to France through marriages, but can and have opposed the king usually.
At least the HRE has the Imperial Diets to convene and create a general imperial policy, something France doesn't have without marriages and its big crownland.
 
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There are a few non-Castilian pops in southern Iberia; but 1337 is too soon to consider an 'Andalusian' identity (as a regional culture born from Castilian, not to be confused with the 'Andalusi' identity, which we consider the Muslim Iberian culture of al-Andalus). On the contrary, French regional identities were more diverse by that age, and the' uniformization' process started a century ago, with the expansion of royal powers and crown lands started by Philippe II Augustus.
I am quite interested in this.
The Iberian culture map in Project Caesar is very well made as the start date is 1337. However I'd like to ask, do you think there could be events for the mid (or late) game to develop potential Iberian cultures like the Andalusian one?
And besides, would it be feasible some event including 'Rroma' populations and some assimilation mechanics to finally develop an Iberian Calé/Caló culture?
Thank you very much @Pavía, and congrats on the impressive work you and your team are doing
 
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Thanks for the map!

A few details:
- agree with others on renaming provinces (Angers -> Anjou)
- Nantes should indeed be a port
- Guérande should probably be a Marsh
- I would have put Wine production in Angers rather than in Nantes, and Legumes in Nantes, but both are acceptable

(didn't find any sources for that sorry)
 
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Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.
I think overly railroading it to get a historical Burgundy would be going too far. Perhaps have a mechanism whereby the French kings are heavily encouraged to give out Apanages to their younger sons early on, but the reasons for doing so becoming much diminished after 1500. This could potentially be combined with apanages having incentives to seek marriage alliances with below Kingdom rank powers that are strategically interesting (including other apanages and of course the low countries), and some modifier that would make unions more likely in some way, e.g. AI ruler with RM to appanage has a -50% heir chance. This may increase the chance of one or two powerful apanages rising to prominence like Burgundy did and becoming independent regional if not great powers. Making it more dynamic rather than railroaded will also make it more interesting for the player as you do not know what power may rise from the French apanages. Of course the French crown should retain or get claims to any apanages that they can use later in the game to unify France.
 
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What a surprise! A good one! Didn't expect to stumble upon the new Tinto Maps while lurking the forum.
Just finished reading it, this is my feedback off-the-tongue with what i saw, may come back later with more – and better-based – thoughts on Baguetteland, although i'd like to use this opportunity to congratulate the team on the work of not only the game but also the feedback-following, i don't quite remember seeing anything like this for a game before. So very much thank you Tintopals :).

Seeing the political map, i have some questions concerning how the Navarre-France conundrum will be represented in-game, Évreux is a french vassal, the Count of Évreux is the King of Navarre, i assume Joan is the in-game ruler of Navarre (as she was queen in her rights) and the Évreux-Navarre PU is presented by a marriage relation between both (to be made PU on their son's accession), but i find rather jarring the absence of Joan's french lands in the map, and the fact that some of these are apparently being thrown under as "Évreux". When Joan gave up her rights to the french throne in 1329, she also gave up claims to the County of Champagne & Brie (which is accurately shown as french crownland), but in return got land in her own name as well, quoting wikipedia:

Screenshot_20240524_104344_Chrome.jpg

This is important because crucial to her reign in Navarre is the fact that both King and Queen of Navarre would most of the time be living in France (her husband showed up more in Navarre than herself, also) with Navarre itself being ruled by french stewards, she clearly showed preferrence to her french domains and simply reality isn't as well depicted if you have a Navarre with Joan as ruler, with the ruler of Évreux as consort, but no PU with a french tag for her lands there. The Angouleme lands are seemingly under the Évreux tag (border with Aquitaine), the same for the Longueville (northern coast) and Mortain (Normandy) – for Mortain even the borders aren't right apparently, they seem to be the Angevin-era borders, Joan's grant from her uncle seems to have included lands in the Côtentin peninsula, as can be seen from her son's – Charles II of Navarre – inheritance:
Screenshot_20240524_105810_Chrome.jpg

Notice how it's mentioned that his mother had received the Normandy lands.

Besides that, i wonder if you'll deal with the historical ongoing contract (That is, Joan has to give up her crown to her son if he reaches 21 years of age before she dies) between Crown and Estates, you've replied to a question saying that there will be an event dealing with the Valentinois, i assume the same will be true for Angouleme? (The french crown acquired it sometime before Joan's death, i didn't get how, but her son seemed pretty mad when the crown gave it to the la Cerdas, anyway), tl;dr: Where Angouleme tag for my gal Joan? Giving her french lands to the husband's tag is literally machism!

Anyway, about locations and provinces, a few suggestions on changing names:
- Tolosa should be San Sebastián, the town is noteworthy, yes, but before the second half of the 14th century, San Sebastián was the main port of Gipuzkoa, and Bilbao gives the name for the neighbouring location, so not naming the main port at game start seems odd, specially considering that later in the game's historical time period San Sebastián would also clear Tolosa in terms of importance.
- There is Oloron (a noteworthy center for Transpyreneean trade) and Pau, but no Orthez (slightly to the west of it), which is the actual capital of Béarn at the time, as the court transferred to Pau in 1464. I'm not actually demanding any specific change here, since i can't bother with tracing where exactly the three are in the map (as in comparing the real life map with the game one), but i do think that it would be strange for the actual capital to not be in the game at the release date. Also, i hope Mont-de-Marsan gets the deserved love! It was an actual city at game-start, it would be...a Let Down if one started the game with just a rural undeveloped location to show for it.
- On provinces, i absolutely think you should go for not-location names, it simply flows better, it's almost free immersion. Location Place in Place Province sounds BORING, Location Place in State Province sounds AWESOME, or something like that. Anyway, you get it! Provinces should have their own, province-y names!

A question: are we ever getting culture-accurate location names for Brittany? It would be so cool!

On cultures, i will corrobate a previous comment on the relying off language boundaries – Not that i disagree heavily with it, but i think that in France's case it can get a bit too much arbitrary, because the whole patois identity often was more microcosmic (at level 1 you speak the language of your village, at level 2 you identify with the people of the villages which you can properly understand). The thing is that, pointing a problem and not entertaining solutions isn't exactly the kind of thing i like to do, so i'm giving my two cents on it.

The Breton/Gallo differentiation is valid, as it was, a core part of Brittany's Late Medieval/Early Modern cultural zeitgeist was its division between Lower (Celtic) and Upper (Romance) Brittany, which was made already in the 14th century (between "Brittania gallicana" and "Brittania britonizans") as of John T. Koch (ed.), Celtic Culture: a historical encyclopedia, Volumes 1-5 (2006), p. 244. But i think the borders shown in the map are innacurate to the time, though, and represent a much more modern (i speak, 18th/19th century) state of things. This map can help us:
1280px-Dialectes_Breton-en.svg.png

It's a bit messy, but i'd say fairly accurate, anyway, look at the 1500 line there. Now consider that we are in 1337, and Upper Brittany (where it is the most urban and dense-populated) was very heavily affected by Black Death and 100 Years War shenanigans, we should be much closer to the 1200 line. That is, Redon should be predominantly Breton, Guérande should be something along the lines of 60/40 to Gallo, funnily enough, the north seems to be fairly accurate (although, if not the case, Gallo should be around 30-40% in Saint-Brieuc, and the majority of burgher pops).

But more importantly, it should be a bigger culture, it is, in fact, not simply "Romance Breton", it is a frontier culture generated during the period of the Marches of Neustria, and should extend further by this time: The area where it is minority under Poitevin should be dominant Gallo (with Poitevin minorities), and Avranches/Mortain both should have a sizable (~30%) minority. I'd also argue for Mayenne to be Gallo, because there's almost no isogloss between its eastern dialects and Mayennais, while Angevin and Mayennais were always considered separate patois, i understand that there's no reason for a single-location Mayennois culture, but i think it would be much more accurate if Mayennois was to be subsumed into Gallo rather than into Angevin, considering that, there should be slight Angevin minorities in Mayenne, and slight Gallo minorities in Laval. Also, burgher pops in Lower Brittany should have a significant Gallo component, as they were often "imported" during the founding of new towns.

There are some reasonable potential mergers, too. Poitevin and Saintongeais maybe, i think Franc Comtois should be subsumed under Bourguignon, mostly due to identitary evidence (as of, we know that during the game's time period, being "Burgundian" was a thing, and the Free County of Burgundy was obviously part of such identity), that song about Picards and Bourguignons comes to mind. Talking of Bourguignon, isn't that culture extending a bit too much to the north? I really don't know a thing about that, just asking because sometimes questions brings problems to light.

LAST THING! There should be Gascon (probably burgher?) pops on Tolosa/San Sebastian, since many towns on Gipuzkoa were founded by the settling in of Gascon populations from the more-urban region north of the Pyrenees, as can be seen here (it's in Spanish, sorry anglos). I also find it kinda strange that there are no significant basque minority in the province between Laredo and Bilbao (can't read it), since Castro de Urdiales was the border for majority Basque-speaking land by c. 1200, there should be some in Laredo, too, but i wouldn't expect them to appear on the map because too small of a minority.

Better men than me can talk about terrain, climate and goods, that's not my trade (not on this region, at least), but i do agree on including the Cathars remnants in the map! Also, where the Waldensians? I want them!

Again, thank you (incl. regular forum readers, this was a very long post lol) for your time! Also, for some reason i had to edit in 60% of my post because it was getting spam-flagged for no apparent reason, so well, that was frustrating.
 
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Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.

I liked the approach of MEIOU. Though it could definitely be improved. Use DHEs or a decision to give multiple paths for a new, more independent subject-type or even fight an outright war for integration or complete independence or the status quo.

Burgundy and the lowlands is the really tricky part. Too much railroading there would make it really boring. A cool goal imo would be some kind of Habsburg-like PU mechanic or buff from a mission tree down the track that would be hard to reach (AI wouldn't reach it most of the time, I think its fair to consider Burgundy's fast and short rise partly sucessive really good luck).

Some historically-inspired prerequisites: high urban economic development, lots of luxury goods and wine, a mercenary corps, good quality cavalry, complete de-facto independence, very high courtly/international prestige, maybe your dynasty in one or several other countries.
 
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