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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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It looks great, my feedback though would be that: first English possessions in 1337 were very tiny around Bordeaux and perhaps would be more appropriate to hold fewer locations as their authority in the region had been eroded continuously over time, only really existing in Bordeaux and a bit of the coast down to bayonne. England should have claims over much of the south west of France though of course, and the lords in this region would often change sides when the 100 years war broke out but this would be hard to put in the game probably. The other thing I’d say is Bordeaux should be in the London market surely as Bordeaux supplied lots of goods like wine to England being a possession of the English crown, or at least if Bordeaux is part it’s own market England should be able to exercise a high degree of control over it
 
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Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.
I think the Black Death could play a vital role in this, as a lot of heirs died in that period, which eventually led to Phillip the Good (Bur) marrying the sole heir of Flanders: Margaret III of Flanders.

Maybe a watershed condition could be designed, where if Flanders has no male heir in the 14th century, an 'Iberian Wedding'-like event could occur, allowing for the Burgundian path to take hold? Perhaps this could then unlock the rest of Burgundy's focus/mission tree venturing forth in gradually acquiring the Low Countries, as it was something they did very purposefully.
 
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So if I recall correctly, around this time Navarre had gained (or was about to gain) some lands in France, specifically Longueville, Angouleme, and Mortain. How come that’s not represented on this map? The house of Evreux was in power about this time and held lands in exchange for Navarre giving up more important claims and lands in France .
 
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I know this is the France Tinto Maps, but given the great diversity of cultures in France, why was Castilian culture so prevalent in the Iberian Tinto Maps? Surely are non-Castilian, non-Muslim cultures in southern Iberia at this time?
Linguistically speaking it's accurate. Mozarabic was extinct by this time, replaced by the local varieties of the kingdoms that pushed south (largely Castile). EU4's Andalusian culture, besides the Arabophone culture of the Emirate of Granada, represents regional traditions and accent of Castillian, but not a distinct language in the same way that for instance Leonese or Aragonese were/are.
 
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1. Tricky question. Britanny was clearly more aligned with France after the marriage of Alix de Thouars to Pièrre de Dreux, in 1213. That resulted in the elevation to the peerage of France in 1297. Shall we consider it a fully independent country, or one that is considered, by that condition, submitted to the King of France? Tricky. We decided upon the option of considering it a vassal, but we're open to feedback on the matter.
2. There will be game rules allowing locations to change its name to different languages, yes.
3. That is not a possibility currently.
4. We'll take that into consideration (probably making those 'sparse' instead of 'woods'). Thanks!
Using this to refer to French cultures will there be methods to accelerate the French culture dominance? I believe that while there were notable hold outs dating up to US war of independence an apt player could highly accelerate it. Taking inspiration from the religious TT a few days ago maybe a unique cultural building that gives a large boost to culture converting speed?
Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.
Oof. While it definitely shouldn’t be railroaded definitely feel there should be ways to model the dominance of Burgandy in a few/multiple decades. Kinda brings me to the main point of there should be more early game scripts that lead to complete collapse of an empire instead of a mere 100% province war score peace deal akin to Otto v Mamluks in EU4.

Depending on how Tinto has missions implemented a Burgandy mission that gives it a very strong CB (for Low Countries specifically) in the “early” game feels like a decent balancing act.
 
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The map of France looks good, thanks for the dev diary.
 
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Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.
For me personally I don't mind some railroading although I'd prefer to just let the simulation run its course. What I do dislike is something like the current Burgundian Inheritance in EU4. It was fun and interesting at first, but got stale very quickly. It is "meta" to get the Burgundian Inheritance in every European play trough, even just to prevent a great power from getting it. I ended up modding the fertility penalty of Charles the Burgoyne (from -95% back up to -50%), just because I got so tired of it.

I think this is the most important consideration for railroading. Will it quickly get stale over multiple play troughs.
 
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Just to be clear, can France acquire the channel islands from England? It looks like they're English to start, but are part of the Cherbourg province?

Please please please let France be able to take the channel islands from perfidious Albion.
Do you have a fleet at hand?
 
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Normandy, Anjou, and Maine are appanages in a personal union under Prince Jean, heir of France, that's correct. We wanted to portray the granularity of his government over these territories until he became king.
So they can be incorporated into the royal domain once the inheritance happens? Also this is rather personal rant, why not have a duchy of Cornwall if that's the reason behind more historical simulation?
 
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I'm so confused with these maps that they keep changing. I don't know how to think about this as a Flemish person who sees Walloon culture on the map and not the Flemish or even the Dutch lol.

Flanders was also essentially independent of France. They fought against the French in the Hundred Years' War. The cities had a lot of power and even forced the French alingt duke out of Flanders several times. Because Flanders' most important cities were heavily dependent on textile production, England supplied much of the raw materials they needed.
If the Flemish Region were on the Antwerp Market or the Bruges Market, that would be better.
 
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Thinking about
Normandy, Anjou, and Maine are appanages in a personal union under Prince Jean, heir of France, that's correct. We wanted to portray the granularity of his government over these territories until he became king.
Is Wales an appanage of England under the Black Prince? Or are appanages French exclusive?
I don't think that we will be able to solve this matter, considering that France and England could not do so back in 1337...

Now seriously, we've considered the English possessions in France to be under England, as that's the closest approach to how they were governed daily.
If it were different, how would the game engine handle it? Basically, are vassals called into their overlord's wars automatically and does that mean that a vassal can be called into a war against their PU partner?
 
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