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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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I know that they are small, however considering they are seperate locations and there are other “one location minors”, I think for flavor and also just for hard starts it would be cool for at least the Channel Islands to become a vassal, if not Englands other processions in France. Additionally from my understanding the cathars still existed in some form till the late 1300s so having them and giving players an opportunity to play as that religion would be very cool.
 
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Flanders was also essentially independent of France. They fought against the French in the Hundred Years' War. The cities had a lot of power and even forced the French alingt duke out of Flanders several times. Because Flanders' most important cities were heavily dependent on textile production, England supplied much of the raw materials they needed.
If the Flemish Region were on the Antwerp Market or the Bruges Market, that would be better.

But at the start date the Count (not a Duke) was very pro-French indeed, so Flanders should start off as a vassal. The Hundred Years wars hasn't started yet, altough it will very soon. Only then should the Flemish cities (or even the County as a whole) rebel and join the English.

Definitely agree there should be a Market in Bruges at the start date though.
 
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Great map as always, and i'm glad that Lorrain is now a seperate culture from Burgundian along with the difference between the Moselle Franconian and the Rhineish (i don't know if i wrote that one down correctly).
Altough i do have some nitpicks about that area.
-The Vosges should definitively be represented as mountains, seperating Lorraine from Alsace.
-Some salt mines should be present in the southern part of modern day Moselle, north-east of Nancy, as there are records of them since the XII. century.
Otherwise, i think the map of Lorraine is relatively accurate. I'll leave my fellow Frenchmen give more infos about the rest of the country.
 
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So they can be incorporated into the royal domain once the inheritance happens? Also this is rather personal rant, why not have a duchy of Cornwall if that's the reason behind more historical simulation?
About the first question, yes. About the second question, @SaintDaveUK might be your person, as he made the English setup.
 
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Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.
If you ask me, it's too much of work for a such short-lived duchy.

I'd rather have ressources put on a ming and qing rise or an habsburg realm / Ottomans / muscovy.

Really anything but burgundy
 
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Yeah, we reviewed this week the tags between the Low Countries and France, and considered that after the Battle of Cassel of 1328, when Louis I was reinstated as the Count, its

But at the start date the Count (not a Duke) was very pro-French indeed, so Flanders should start off as a vassal. The Hundred Years wars hasn't started yet, altough it will very soon. Only then should the Flemish cities (or even the County as a whole) rebel and join the English.

Definitely agree there should be a Market in Bruges at the start date though.
I agree with you good sir in this!
 
I'm so confused with these maps that they keep changing. I don't know how to think about this as a Flemish person who sees Walloon culture on the map and not the Flemish or even the Dutch lol.

Flanders was also essentially independent of France. They fought against the French in the Hundred Years' War. The cities had a lot of power and even forced the French alingt duke out of Flanders several times. Because Flanders' most important cities were heavily dependent on textile production, England supplied much of the raw materials they needed.
If the Flemish Region were on the Antwerp Market or the Bruges Market, that would be better.
That Flanders was a vassal of France in 1337 doesn't mean that it will keep being after. ;)
 
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If French cultures are represented in such a comprehensive way (which is awesome), I don't know why Iberia has so few cultures and blobs.

Asturleonese as a single culture could be two cultures: Asturian and Leonese. Mirandese can also be added in the border between Portugal and Castile/León

We can also have the Andalusian culture in Iberia. That is the Spanish-speaking inhabitants of southern Spain (who happen to have a particular identity and dialect of Spanish). In that sense, we would have an Andalusi culture (inside some Arab or Maghrebi culture group) and the Andalusian culture (inside the Iberian culture group).

Iberia could also have a Cantabrian culture (which some lingüists classify as a dialect of Spanish, even if it's mostly extinct today, but I'm sure it wasn't back in 1337).

Then there's also the Mozarabic culture, which were the Hispanic Christians living under Muslim rule, which could be a minority (and in some cases majority) in some locations in Granada and the Moroccan territories in Iberia.

It's kind of weird to see the HRE and France so fragmented, specially in terms of culture, and have Iberia pretty much unified, specially Castile.

If Occitans are split into their dialects, I'm sure Castilians can as well. Even Murcian and Extremaduran could be added.

Even if, sadly, some of these dialects will be extinct in the next couple of year in our timeline, back in 1337 the Castilian/Spanish language wasn't at all unified. The first grammar of a unified Castilian language was written in 1492 and the Real Academia de la Lengua, which standarised the language, was created in 1713. Even if King Alfonso X began using Castilian (mostly the variant from Toledo) as the court language during the 13th century, the reality of the language elsewhere, and in rural areas, was a series of dialects and dialect continuums, which have sadly slowly becoming extinct in the last 200 years and will eventually die in the 21st century.

(Fun fact: Some rural areas of Colombia (and perhaps elsewhere in Hispanic America) still have linguistic traits of such dialects, many colonists came from places such as León, Cantabria, Andalusia and Galicia and brought with them their own linguistic features, that were different from the standard Castilian of Toledo/Madrid)
 
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My suggestion for vegetation:
Grs6scR.png

I filled it out based on this vegetation map I prepared.

Farmlands are based on:
Woods and forest locations are based on modern forest cover and research into what these forests looked like in the past. For example, Angouleme now has just a few small protected forests but it used to be one big woodland and parts of it were cleared over time.
The Landes have been mentioned, but I'm not sure if sparse is correct for it? Don't horse archers get a bonus on sparse vegetation? The Landes were closer to marshland than steppes, I think.

France at the time only had 20% forest cover by the way (30% today), and it struggled with shortages of wood.
On the other hand, it has the best farmland in Europe other than Ukraine (or rather, the largest amount of good farmland), which is how it could sustain such a large population throughout the game's timeframe.
Nontron is a forest province too, it's called "Périgord Vert" which means "Green Périgord" for obvious reasons. While I'm on the subject of Périgord, you have Périgord blanc "White Périgord" with Périgueux (for limestone), Périgord pourpre "Purple Périgord" with Bergerac (for wine) and finally Périgord noir "Black Périgord" with Sarlat (for very dark holm oak forests)
 
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The Channel Islands should not be directly ruled by the English crown in 1337. It's been apart of the English realm ever since 1066, but it was never part of the Kingdom of England, with it instead being made up of two autonomous Bailiwicks, Jersey and Guernsey; with Guernsey also having two autonomous fiefdoms, Alderney and Sark. This would be extremely hard to represent in game, but there are two main solutions; the first would be to keep the Channel islands as one location and have it be a vassal of the English, this would be the more moderate, but also inaccurate solution. The second, more radical solution would be to make Jersey and Guernsey their own locations and to have them both released as vassals to the English. The Isle of Mann is also under similar circumstances to the Channel Islands, so it should be a vassal in 1337 as well.
 
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Which ones?
I wasnt sure if this was relevant to this map talk already. But its in modern day france so why not.

Ferrette -> Pfirt
Sarrebourg-> Saarburg
Saint Avold -> Sankt Avold
Bitche -> Bitsch
Strasbourg -> Strassburg
Haguenau -> Hagenau
(And maybe Belfort -> Beffert)

I cant see the rest but I suspect they have similar problems.
And maybe Mulhouse (Mülhausen) could be represented? Its the largest city in the region. Maybe rename Ferrette or Belfort to Mülhausen instead.
 
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You do the Netherlands, Iberia, and France and then skip to the Baltic? Is there any particular reason why you don't do the British Isles next? It would have seemed a natural choice (at least to me, though admittedly I may be a little biased).
We're doing (and will keep doing) the European regions in a non-geographic order.
 
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You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't the Channel Islands at this point the last remaining part of the Duchy of Normandy and couldn't they be treated as such?
 
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View attachment 1137995
Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).
There were proposals about log scale or multicolour scale. I think it will look much better
 
I admittedly know nothing about 1337 France, but what is the logic for this weird horizontal 4 province state being a thing? Why not absorb it into the neighboring ones?

Provinces.png
 
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