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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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Hi Pavía
Thank you for all the details and the historical accuracy !
About the Abbeville province (representing the real life county of Ponthieu):

- Is it really going to be a direct possession of England in 1337 ? Since the title of count of Ponthieu belonged directly to Edward III like the the title of duke of Aquitaine it wasn't properly part of the kingdom of England. Furthermore, this is the reason why the county was also confiscated by Philipppe VI on the 24th of mai 1337 at the same time as the duchy of "Aquitaine" (ie. Guyenne).

- About the raw good in the Abbeville province, fish wasn't really the major base good in this period of history. Instead Abbeville knew a fast population growth during the last 100 years due to the salt production and trade from the nearby city of "Rue" (within the province).
This salt production combined with the trade of woad was one of the key reason why Abbeville became member of the "Seventeen cities Hanseatic league" in 1270, turning it in term as a wool drapery producer like Amiens, Lille and Reims. "La Hanse des dix-sept villes", as was its name in french, was a flemish/picard/"champagnese" counterpart of the London/Bruggian hanseatic league wich was essentially doing the same type of draperies trade but focused towards Champagne, Brie and Paris.
The province at this time grew to be one of the first major trade ports in the north of France (even before Calais wich only became an english staple port in 1363, being mainly focused toward fortifications instead of trade before !)

----> Wool or salt would be, for those reasons, better trade goods for this province of Abbeville (Amiens and Lille would be quite interesting for the production of wool too, being even more populated and having the same related history with the hanseatic league but I don't know if both would work for balance purpose)

Thank you for all your work, can't wait for the release !!

Edit* : would be great if the province could be renamed as Ponthieu since it is its official name, the city in Picard is also known as « Adville »



Source for the 17 cities Hanseatic league :
"Les XVII villes, une hanse vouée au grand commerce de la draperie", Carolus-Barré, Louis. Comptes rendus des séances de l'Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres Année 1965
Source for the Ponthieu county history :
Many books from my home city (Abbeville in case you had a doubt :p), or even (not professionnal I admit) the Wikipedia pages : "Histoire d'Abbeville" and "Ponthieu"
 
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Hello. What languages this game will have?
I hope more languages, there is gonna be much much text, and remeber: most legend games are well translanted to many languages.
If you have no budget for this, ask community and make its easy to community to translate game (or use AI?)
 
A made a quick search among my saved links, these are the ones I could gather at the moment:
Ah, so I think this is just for the 14th century, before the Ore Mountain Berggeschrey and the Saiger process.
For examle, we know that the Schwaz mine in Tyrol produced around 1000kg of silver in 1456, but after adoption of the Saiger process it went up to 14800kg in 1487 (which would be 50% more than the yearly output of Hungary in the 14th century according to one of those sources).

So that's only specifically for the start of the game, which can be represented by having these locations employ a lot of people in their silver/gold rgos, while other locations that didn't have their big silver rush yet don't have an expanded rgo at all.
Like the silver location I suggested for Alsace (to bring it back to the topic of the thread), it wouldn't have a lot of peasants working in it.
 
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Love it, thanks for all the work !

As for the provinces names, I guess the choice is not always easy between the provincial/regional name and the location name, but you have to set a fixed convention for all the provinces I would go for the provincial/regional name, which feels more immersive ans flavourfull.

If you continue to use both provincial/regional names and province capital names on a case-by-case basis, there are a few provinces for which I feel much confortable with thé provincial name :
- Anjou rather than Angers
- Touraine rather than Tours
- Limousin rather than Limoges
- Béarn rather than Pau
- Provence rather than Aix-en-Provence

I guess for some provinces like Lyon or Bordeaux the name of the provinces capital feels ok, Lyonnais or Bordelais would be ok too, but Pays Bordelais ans Pays Lyonnais would be too much words for the same info on the map.
 
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Will there be an event to change the trade good in Lyon from Olives to Silk?

In 1536, Francis I granted Lyon the privilege of weaving silk, silver and gold thread and the industry quickly grew over the years to become an important economic activity for the city as the fashions of the Court of Versailles were exported to all the other European courts. In 1850 (After the game ends but still), silk was 75% of the city's economy.
I would like that, but silk, like beer, doesn't grow on a silk tree. It's woven in workshops, which are buildings.

By the way, how would these kinds of industries be represented in-game? Not only the Lyon silk, but also the Netherlands cloth, the already discussed Belgian beer, and countless others through the world.
It can't be a change of RGO, since again there is no silk tree (and I don't think there are silk worms in 14th century France.)
Forcing the player to build workshops in Lyon would be incredibly frustrating. Especially given that the city could be destroyed by war or plague before 1536, essentially forcing the player to build an useless building.
An event to build cheaper/more productive workshops in Lyon would be the best way I can think of, but having such an event for every location (I'm sure many could have one or more)* would turn to spam quickly, especially if you see them every game.
Similarly, a special building a la CK3 (Lyon silk factories, twice as big as normal factories, cost 1.75 times the normal price) wouldn't feel special anymore if every other location has one. Special buildings, imo, are better left for truly exceptional wonders like Notre-Dame.
Not having anything, finally, kinda feels like a disservice to how important those industries were to the economy back then.


*If you are wondering how many provinces could have such a modifier, you can find one literally the next province over - the Beaujolais vignoble. And if cheese is a trade good, then like half of France is eligible.
 
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one thing that i find surprising is just how much olives Lorraine seems to grow. is this meant to represent some other oily crops, like rapeseed?
I make a suggestion page 12 about province and raw goods.
We don't produce olives in Lorraine, not the good weather.
For 2 of the 3 olives, historicaly it's vineyards ( Metz and Toul), the other (sarrebourg) is a land of salt mines.
 
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Feel free to skim this article for silver information: https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/436044/bomeconpapers_8_w.pdf

It focused on 1493+, but has references to older information.

Some excerpts:

Germany:
Since 1493 Germany has produced one-half billion ounces or 3 per cent of the world's silver, more than any other European country. Table 25 and Figure 13 give the German production since 1493. During the 108-year period, 1493 to 1600, Germany produced 50,000,- 000 ounces of silver, or almost 7 per cent of the world total. Production declined until in the 20-year period, 1621 to 1640, only 4,000,000ounces was produced. From that time on the production increased until the maximum of 31,000,000 ounces for any 5-year period was reached in 1891 to 1895. This increase was not at all regular, as can be clearly seen in Figure 13. Since 1895 German production has declined to a low point of 19,000,000 ounces (1921 to 1925) and recovered to the 5,000,000-a-year mark for 1926 and 1927.

The Saxon Erzgebirge, the most important silver region in the Old World, has been worked since the tenth century. The mining methods and metallurgical practice developed by the ingenious men of this region have spread throughout the world. in 1702 the School of Mines at Freiburg, Saxony, was established. This school soon became the leading institution of its kind in the world and continues a leader in mining and geological learning. In 1710 the metallurgical works of Freiburg were consolidated. In 1790 barrel amalgamation was introduced at these works, followed by the Augustin process of handling silver ores in 1843, which was in turn super-seded by the Ziervogel process in 1848. The Freiburg district is credited with 169,000,000 ounces of silver produced between 1163and 1896.The Harz Mountains district was discovered or rediscovered in1520, and its silver production since that time has been second only to that of the Saxon Erzgebirge. In the Harz area silver is derived from the lead-silver mines of Clausthal and St. Andreasberg and the copper mines of Mansfeld and Rammelsberg. Cologne and Coblenz in Rhenish Prussia produce silver-lead and silver-lead-zinc ores. The zinc-lead-silver area of Upper Silesia was an important contributor to German silver prodúction until at the close of the World War it was included in the territory ceded to Poland and has since become the principal source of silver production in Poland.

Austria-Hungary:
During the 108-year period 1493 to 1600 Austria-Hungary ranked fourth among the silver producers of the world; but the output of Peru and of Mexico, which ranked second and third, respectively, exceeded the Austrian production of 88,000,000 ounces by only a few million ounces each. Only Bolivia, with a production of 355,000,000 ounces, had greatly exceeded this European rival. The Austrian production was 12 per cent of the world total. With the opening of the seventeenth century there was a sharp drop in the Austrian pro- duction, which reached a low point between 1621 and 1660, a period during which the yearly average was a quarter million ounces. Following this there was a period of steady increase, which culminated with an average annual production of nearly a million ounces in the decade 1801 to 1810. For the next 30 years there was a recession to a total output of 6,000,000 ounces in the 10-year period 1831 to1840. Then followed a period of slow increase to a maximum of 11,000,000 ounces for the 5-year period 1891 to 1895. From 1896on there was a gradual decline, until the treaty of Versaffles terminated the status of Austria-Hungary as an empire and also ended its long record as an important European silver producer. The new Austria lost most of its silver mines to Czechoslovakia, Poland, and Yugo-slavia, and Hungary lost all its silver mines to these same countries and Rumania.

Before the partition of the dual monarchy following the World War the principal silver areas of this country were the Bohemia or Pribram and the northern Hungary or Schemnitz and Kremnitz, now all in Czechoslovakia, and the eastern Hungary or Transylvania districts, now in Rumania. The Bohemian mines have been worked for several hundred years-the Kaurzim district has recorded pro- ducjion since 1283 A. D. The mines of Schenmitz and Kremnitz, in northern Hungary, have been producing silver since the thirteenth century. Nagy Banya, Abrudbanya, and Banat of Transylvania have histories antedating the discovery of America. At present the relatively unimportant Kitzbuhel and Rohrerbuchel districts of western Austria are the principal sources of Austrian silver.
 
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Is there a reason Wine is a raw good? I would suggest changing it to Grapes, a food good that can be processed in Wineries/Monasteries or somesuch. Everything looking great btw!
 
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Is there a reason Wine is a raw good? I would suggest changing it to Grapes, a food good that can be processed in Wineries/Monasteries or somesuch. Everything looking great btw!
You're not really going to trade grapes across continents. The actual trade good is wine.
For the same reason, the trade good shouldn't be olives, but oil.
 
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Can we Brazilians make a thread about the Brazil (and in my case Southern Brazil) for the future Tinto Maps and Tinto Talks? We would love to contribute and express our opinions about the current map (show in the last Tinto Talks).

And thank you very much for being so open to the fans!
You are certainly welcome to make a thread like that and I'm sure other Brazilians will join you discussing the topic.

I would just advise you to write at the beginning that you will reiterate key takeaways from that thread once Tinto Maps get to South America - so that @Pavía and his team know all this input won't get lost.
 
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These maps are as beautiful as always!

My personal pet peeve is that the Geneva location doesn’t actually cover the location of Geneva, or touch the Lac Léman (Lake Geneva) at all for that matter
 
Good to see the Lowlands populations have been made more logical and in accordance with France/Iberia.

For Burgundy railroad: there should be a logical way to peacefully unite the low countries, which should happen more often than not. Whether that's done locally or by Bavaria, Mallorca or Burgundy shouldn't really matter.

Are the Jersey and Guernsey one location? Under what name? Are they the smallest location?

As someone memed, Cornwall and Cornouaille are the same word. Probably not the best idea to have both?

For the colours: vassals of Aragon and England are very close, seems optimisable?

Also, as someone earlier said, with the reactivity a bit strange that the mixup between Basel and Neufchâteau hasn't been corrected yet?
 
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Is there a reason Wine is a raw good? I would suggest changing it to Grapes, a food good that can be processed in Wineries/Monasteries or somesuch. Everything looking great btw!
I imagine at that time wine was made with locally grown grappes and that the grappes were grown specifically for local wine production, not to be trade as a fruit.
I am not a specialist, my opinion is that it would not feel realistic to import grappes from your local market or even an other market to produce wine in a location not producing grappes. But maybe I am wrong !
 
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As for the province names, I'd definitely go for the "adjectival" form, using the names of historic provinces (or regions of provinces) when possibly.

As follows:

Paris - Île-de-France or Pays-de-France
Amiens - Picardy (or Amiénois)
Arras - Artois
Soissons - Soissonais
Guise - Probably fine but I'd consider Thierache
Meaux - Brie
Reims - Rémois
Chalons-en-Champagne - Champagne Propre
Troyes - Troiesin
Chaumont - Bassigny
Dijon - Dijonnais/Burgundy
Nevers - Nivernais
Chalons-sur-Saone - Chalonnais
Lyon - Lyonnais
Vienne - Viennois/Bas-Dauphiné
Grenoble - Grésivaudan/Haut-Dauphiné
Nice - Way too big, I'd cut it down to just the historic county.
Aix-en-Provence - Provence
Avignon - Venaissin
Viviers - Vivarais
Nimes - Nîmois/Bas-Languedoc
Narbonne - Narbonnais
Toulouse - Haut-Languedoc
Carcassonne - Carcassonnais
Muret - Comminges
Pau - Béarn
Bayonne - Tricky! Perhaps Upper Navarre or Labourd.
Auch - Armagnac
Mont-de-Marsan - Marsan
Dax - tricky... Dacquois, Buch, Albret could all work but maybe just Landes.
Bordeaux - Bordelais
Limoges - Limousin

Aubusson - La Marche
Saintes - Saintonge (would include Angouleme here too!)
Poitiers - Haut-Poitou
Thouars - Bas-Poitou
Angers - Anjou
Tours - Touraine
Orléans - Orléanais
Just correcting myself here - the area around Dax is the Aguais, not the Dacquais. Regardless I'd probably call this province "Landes" anyway. Additionally, I'd include Labrit in it too.

As for other areas:

Nemours - Gatinais
Verdun - Barrois
Metz - Historically Lorraine was divided into three bailiwicks, the northernmost was the "German Bailiwick". I'd call this province "German Lorraine".
Nancy - Keep the name, or rename to Vosges or French Lorraine.
Cherbourg - Cotentin
Caen - Bessin
Alencon - was a duchy but this region is much wider - Lieuvin or Evrecin might be better.
Rouen - Could go with an EU4 classic and call it Caux?
Dreux - Keep or expand into Le Mans and rename "Perche".
Mayenne - Bas-Maine/Lower Maine
Le Mans - Haut-Maine/Upper Maine
 
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