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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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[*]Why is Monaco missing? You’ve added Andorra, but Monaco was arguably more important at the Startdate (and afterwards). The starting ruler had good connections to both France and Naples. Monaco won independence from Genoa just a few years earlier, but was reconquered 20 years later. That should provide some dynamic action in the area.
Monaco (24 sq km prior to 1848) is slightly smaller than Couto Misto (26 sq km prior to being divided by Portugal and Spain). @Pavía previously mentioned that Couto Misto is too small to be added as a separate location, so the same applies to Monaco.

Andorra is 468 sq km large.
 
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The provinces in France seem less numerous than the ones in Iberia? This seems like behavior deserving of the guillotine!

Edit : did a proper count of the provinces, as you should check facts before lobbing people heads off *ahem robespierre*, and the province density per square km is roughly equal between france and the iberian peninsula - you live to see another day
 
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I know this is the France Tinto Maps, but given the great diversity of cultures in France, why was Castilian culture so prevalent in the Iberian Tinto Maps? Surely are non-Castilian, non-Muslim cultures in southern Iberia at this time?

because that's how it was
The cultural map is a linguistic map. In the north of Castile, as in the south, Spanish was spoken (the Christian Andalusians, not the Muslim Andalusians, have a VERY different dialect from the north but 100% intelligible, it is the same language) while France was a melting pot of languages... (I don't know the degree of intelligibility between a Norman and a Parisian at that time, the truth is I don't know if those languages were already formed but to give you an idea what we call "French" today was spoken by only 8% of the population in times of Napoleon).
All my life I believed that in Germany they spoke "German" and that dialects were dialects, until I realized that there a dialect is a language and that in Germany at least 25 languages are spoken and there are dialect continuums.
 
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Monaco (24 sq km prior to 1848) is slightly smaller than Couto Misto (26 sq km prior to being divided by Portugal and Spain). @Pavía previously mentioned that Couto Misto is too small to be added as a separate location, so the same applies to Monaco.

Andorra is 468 sq km large.

Basing whether or not cities should exist on their geographical size is weird. Hugely important cities with distinctive characteristics like Venice as going to be misrepresented because they didn't meet some arbitrary sq. km measurement.
 
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The idea of watching all those duchies disappear into the big blue blob, one at a time, is giving me waves of dopamine.
 
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Super specific feedback (i am from that region) but since you're worried about location names being too long, Boulogne-sur-mer could probably be named simply "Boulogne", as that distinction is mostly made in recent times for administrativve purposes to differentiate it from Boulogne-Billancourt (which was only formed in 1330) so you could make the name visible.
I also have a problem with that province being called Artois (though that's definitely better than just Arras), considering the the Boulonnais region is included in it and not in Amiens but I understand the constraints.
The culture map is also quite nice, but if the langues d'oc are separated, shouldn't the Arpitan culture be divided between Lyonnais, dauphinois, savoyard, vaudois, etc?
Good work otherwise!!
 
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I would love a separate DD related to how the climate, vegetation and terrain systems tie together and are different compared to more usual system of terrain only. It seems very cool
 
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From what I quickly found there should be few hundred/dozens cathars left in southern france and northern Italy in 1337, but they would live in very rural places and be quite secretive about their practices. I do wonder if it will be possilbe to revive a tiny minority religion like this though? It definitely opens up interesting alt scenarios if content for it is developed, maybe through some sort of event chain
 
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By the way, as Tinto Map 2.5, I have a few comments about southern France cultures and their potential links south of the Pyrenees. I note today's map does have a gascon minority in Pamplona, which is pretty spot on with Pamplone having a french quarter (Burgos de Pamplona). But not only was Pamplona

Esta documentación conservada en el Archivo General de Navarra, redactada en gascón, abarca más de siglo y medio, desde 1305 a 1479 y comprende 365 documentos. Todos ellos se refieren a la administración de la Terra de Navarre de ça Portz, como se cita en los textos. El 73% de los mismos fue redactado por notarios bajo-navarros de las villas de San Juan de Pie de Puerto, Garris, Saint-Palais, Ostabat y Labastide-Clairance, sin olvidar otras localidades, como Bayona, Pau, Oloron, Orthez, Bagnéres-de-Bigore, etc. La Navarra Peninsular está también representada en un 17% por notarios de Pamplona, Sangüesa, Estella, Olite, Tafalla etc.

I'd mainly argue the blue stripes need to extend a bit. At least the Tolosa location should also have a gascon minority:

En Guipúzcoa los gascones dejaron huellas de su presencia en la toponimia y antroponimia y, sobre todo, en la documentación. En esta lengua está firmado el poder que en 1328 otorgaba el preboste de San Sebastián a sus representantes para firmar un tratado de paz con Bayona. Igualmente en esta lengua están escritas las sentencias de concordia entre Hendaya y Fuenterrabia de 1498 y 1518. Más aún, un documento donostiarra de 1624 informa que la lengua gascona “dura y se habla al presente vulgarmente en la villa”.

La gasconización medieval occidental del reino de Navarra

Estella and Jaca may also have a bit of Gascon around 1337, although I'm not completely sure about the dating for thos two.

I'm also a bit unsure about that gascon/Languedocien frontier. At the start date, Foix and Bearn were in a Personal Union. But does that merit a gascon minority in Foix (which I think is usually grouped as more Occitania that Gascony)?
 
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And, in another unrelated topic, is there a burgundian inheritance mechanic in Project Caesar? How would that even work with the game starting before the Valois Burgundy branch starts its rule?
 
Nice map ! Lots of nice detail and great suggestions already being made !

Might aswell add a minor nitpick : the Quimper province seems quite large and probably be divided in two with Quimperlé being a new province.
Especially since Quimperlé was an important stronghold during the war of breton succession (which I assume will be represented in game) that switched hands a couple of times and was the setting of a battle in april 1342.
 
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Locations:
View attachment 1137982
An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Pourquoi nous blâmer ? ces nom sont génial ! Les anglophones n'ont car faire des effort : ) / Why blame us? These names are awesome! English speakers don't have to make an effort :)
 
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