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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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I agree strongly with the sentiment, that French toponims, in the non-French releases of the game at least, should be restricted to only the Oïl lands, and that Òc, Arpitan and Breton lands should be named in their own languages; Gallo makes the situation in Brittany more peculiar, but it would nevertheless be a great waste and a shame, for this brilliant rendition of the French lands and the cultures therein, to be labelled and named only in French.
If that works in the same way as in EU4, I guess the name of location would depend on the main culture of the country owner of the location. So for Brittany, if the main culture of the country is Gallo it should be Gallo toponyms and if the main culture switchs to Breton, locations should be renamed with breton toponyms. And same logic applied for the locations in the Occitan langages areas.

I really liked this Dynamic naming of provinces in EU4, it felt very immersive as the campaign goes on. But I guess that implies a lot of works on dynamic toponyms, moreover if there is more cultural granularuty in PC than in EU4. If one goes for a very large conquest and/or colonisation with Breton as the main culture of your country, one could expect for Breton naming of every new location added to the country. This would be very interesting.

Location naming could also be dynamic in relation with either the control level or if there is are some policies of cultural integration vs cultural autonomie, but I am not sure that level complexity with the dynamic naming would have relevant results.
 
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I there! I had to make sure to write my reaction as a Frenchman, considering it's my first message there on the forum. Although I'm accustomed to Paradox GSG and am following Tinto stuff from the very beginning.

First, I wanted to thank you all in the team, with the whole research you've made, and the way you're depicting my country, at this very moment. As explained, it melts my heart to see how beautiful France is shown! There's a lot of details, and as a mapmaker myself, I noticed even some of the smallest (I see you, Sainte-Suzanne in the Maine region :D).

From my perspective, although I can only speak from myself, and with the years of mapmaking backing me (maybe I'll publish on other posts of the forum the maps I've made), this as a whole makes an accurate representation of the area.

The cultural languages, particularly, are breathtaking! As I've lately worked on the area of Aunis-Saintonge for purely historical research and curiosity. The fact you've splitted Saintongeais from Poitevin (which is often misbelieved as being the same culture, despite their proximity) shows the seriousness of your work.

I couldn't tell a lot about trade goods, as I've got my own vision of representing them, but that would be part of a specific topic (the one I should write and publish with my most recent works). But overall it looks fine, as much as I can tell.

Maybe some provinces don't look really "historical" but are made the way they are for gameplay reasons? Like, location of Mâcon, Burgundy, being part of Lyonnais province, while it could be part of Chalonnais province (I know what I'm talking about, as I'm a native of the country! #71 for the connoisseurs!). Or even the location of Angoulême being part of Poitiers province... mmh... I would have put it with Aunis-Saintonge as they're traditionally put together... or rather, split Angoumois into a couple of locations. Samely, Loudun location could instead be part of Poitiers province (it's been part of Anjou, but has always followed the cultural tradition of Poitou). It's even well represented culturally on the map you've provided.

Maybe the thing that bothers me the most is the way some provinces are depicted. Aunis, Saintonge, Angoumois, as I've said, since it's been simplified at the moment. For Aunis, I understand it encomprises the lands and towns attached to it when the province was created, but I would suggest halving it, in Aunis to the north, with towns of La Rochelle, Marans, Surgères (as well as the isle of Ré, if put in the same location), and to the south, as either Marennes, or later, Brouage, or a bit later, Rochefort, since it's been another trading pole as well, before becoming a royal arsenal - in Rochefort indeed. Also, the area of Aunis and Marennes are difficult when deciding which base trade good to pick, since it's always been a salt-producing area.

The 1/3 Western Brittany, in the same way, feels a bit off to me, because it seems a bit much simplified, according to me. But the time when I draw my map of the region is a bit old, and I've not worked on it recently. Or again, I thought Coutances, in western Normandy, would make an appearance, alongside Saint-Lô. Avranchin goes too much up to the north. Adding towns like Sarlat in Périgord, of replacing Montendre (in Saintonge) by Jonzac, adding the towns of Saint-Jean-d'Angély (Saintonge again), and of Cognac (splitting Angoulême), would be other advises from me... but anyway. These are just suggestions for making the map a bit more accurate in its current shape It's a work-in project as it's been specified, and I'm sure there will be plenty of time and people like me to help you with these kinds of corrections.

I finally wanted to apologize for not citing sources or bringing material proofs, as making maps is already time-consuming, and as I recognize, for my dishonor, that I'm not well organized (I do record links of interesting sources on my PC or on Internet bookmarks, but it's generally too specific, as I'm working on a more zoomed-in level, and again, I do lack organisation). So, I hope that first message is still interesting, serious and accurate enough, historically speaking, as I can't bring much sources right now - I've led research, it is true, on Wikipedia pages, but also a lot on many of the possible historical pages one can dig out.

If ever done so, thank you for reading me. I hope this comment will be useful for that marvellous game we're all waiting for. Thank you for developping it! And bringing history to another level. Augmented reality, we can say?!
I also felt than the Angoulême location looked pretty big and could be split ; and that Sarlat could be added (cutting from Bergerac and maybe Turenne and Périgueux ? I am not sure of the precise borders) as Sarlat had some importance in the HYW and is still considered as the main location of the Black Perigord.

Edit : I just add two maps of the division of Périgord from the wiki page of Périgord Noir if that can be of any use
 

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Traditionally, olive trees were considered unsuitable for oceanic climates. However, recent research suggests that with proper management and adaptation, olives can thrive even in these challenging conditions. Therefore, in the context of the Middle Ages, olives were likely restricted to the Mediterranean climate and, to some extent, continental climates.
 
Traditionally, olive trees were considered unsuitable for oceanic climates. However, recent research suggests that with proper management and adaptation, olives can thrive even in these challenging conditions. Therefore, in the context of the Middle Ages, olives were likely restricted to the Mediterranean climate and, to some extent, continental climates.
how is oceanic more challenging than continental climates? lol?
 
how is oceanic more challenging than continental climates? lol?
The discussion pertains to olive trees, which have evolved to endure dry conditions, rather than to the climates themselves. Excessive moisture can result in root rot and fungal diseases. Moreover, extended periods of wetness may disrupt the development of flowers and fruits.
 
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I would like to make a suggestion regarding Border Gore.

I believe later in the game or for nations that are no longer feudal, tribal or clan (if it exists), should automatically or have an easier way to get a claim on an enclave of different nation and even if it isn't totally an enclave or exclave. A semi enclave or a weird strip of land would be also subject to this, a possible way of doing this could be how nation tags go over mountains or wastelands, giving them an automatic claim to the land.
 
I wasnt sure if this was relevant to this map talk already. But its in modern day france so why not.

Ferrette -> Pfirt
Sarrebourg-> Saarburg
Saint Avold -> Sankt Avold
Bitche -> Bitsch
Strasbourg -> Strassburg
Haguenau -> Hagenau
(And maybe Belfort -> Beffert)

I cant see the rest but I suspect they have similar problems.
And maybe Mulhouse (Mülhausen) could be represented? Its the largest city in the region. Maybe rename Ferrette or Belfort to Mülhausen instead.

Mate, as a Belfortain, if they get rid of Belfort because of your post, I'm gonna purchase you with a spoon until the end of the world.

Btw, where are the Vosges? They were really important strategically and defined the border between Inner France and Outer France (Alsace) in the 18th century. It's only hills, which is weird as Vosges are mountains that were obstacles for armies for centuries.
 
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Have marshes disappeared altogether ? I think I remember from Tinto Map#1 that certain locations had marshes.
 
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Another great map in this series! I am especially happy to see the Pays de Gex and Evian as locations :) I lived in various places in the 'Arpitan' part of the map, and have some, mostly minor, feedback on them. I am not sure if you are looking for feedback on places outside the modern day French borders, but I will assume if it is on the map, it is open to feedback ;) . Let me know if I should repeat some of this in a Switzerland Tinto maps.

Major:

1) Geneva should be located at the lake Geneva (i.e. Nyon and Evian should not touch)
2) Locations of Neuchâtel and Delemont seem swapped. In the countries map and the locations map this seems like just a simple swap, but if you swap them, then in the cultures the wrong culture is assigned to each. So, after swapping the locations, also swap the cultures back.

Minor:
3) For the province below Bulle: I cannot read the name, but seems to correspond largely with Alpes Vaudois. Maybe use Aigle for this location? I suggest switching the trade good to Wine, and make an event for the salt Mines of Bex to switch the trade good to salt later in the game.
4) Consider renaming Yverdon-les-Bains location to Morges, or even splitting a Morges province from it.
5) Saanen could perhaps be a vassal of Savoy? It would switch allegiance to Bern early in the game.
6) Will there be some special modifier for the water springs of Evian? Before modern medicine these springs would provide essential minerals not in an everyday diet. Evian water, for example, was said to dissolve kidney stones.
7) Since you decided to add the principality of Orange (I am very happy that you managed to squeeze it in :) ), will a tag representing the 'Barony' of Breda be present in the lowlands region? This title was transferred to the House of Nassau (later Orange-Nassau) not too long after the game start. In fact, the current King of the Netherlands still holds the title of 'Baron van Breda'.

8) Not quite on the map, but Mulhouse seems to be on the wrong side of the Rhine river.

the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).

9) Completely understandable, but will there be something akin to a releasable tag in EU4, that would allow the player to release and play as Jersey/Guernsey?

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

10) Personal preference perhaps, but I suggest naming the provinces Artois and Anjou (and Lyonnais etc.). It gives a nice separation between the location of e.g. Arras vs the whole province of Artois.

maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to?

If you do decide to include them it would be only for a player-run campaign. In the hands of the AI these few pops should disappear quickly after the start of the game. It does add a little bit of flavor which is always nice, if it does not take too much time/personpower.

11) Instead would you consider spending time on adding the Waldensians? They would be more numerous in 1337 and would be subject to a crusade in 1487.

Thanks a lot for your excellent work! Looking forward to seeing the rest of Switzerland :)
 
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You're right! Sarlat is one of the main towns in Périgord, and what makes its difference from the others in the area, is they deliberately chose the French side during the HYW (after being briefly occupied by the English side). Even later, during the Religion wars, they chose to remain Catholic, instead of embracing Protestantism, unlike in Bergerac. Also, Sarlat did prosper earlier and perhaps longer than the others towns of Périgord (the area had known a lesser devastation during the HYW, so it could prosper easier after that). I've got a few maps of Perigord, and maybe this one can help too (although Périgord has some deep complexity I've never seen summarized yet ). Also, that would make a proper, 4-locations province of Périgord. So that instead, Agen location would join locations of Cahors, Montauban and Figeac in order to form the Agenais-Quercy province. That would be more accurate. :)

I can't tell much about Angoumois since I only drew sketches of it and am still working on corrections (it's part of the same file I'm using on my Aunis-Saintonge map, in order to represent a "Santonie" region), but clearly, the most noticeable locations there would be... Angoulême first... ah-ha! But also Cognac to its west, and Ruffec to its north. La Rochefoucauld wouldn't be a bad choice but I'm not sure if it was that much important in the region, by that time.
 

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I am not an expert on France, but is there any chance for a location of Hesdin? AFAIK, for much of late middle ages it was a small-ish exclave of Artois separated from what is St-Pol on the map shown.
 
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6) Will there be some special modifier for the water springs of Evian? Before modern medicine these springs would provide essential minerals not in an everyday diet. Evian water, for example, was said to dissolve kidney stones.
Oh that's a good idea! I added medicaments to Evian in my suggestion map, and also to other famous mineral water springs.
8) Not quite on the map, but Mulhouse seems to be on the wrong side of the Rhine river.
It could be Müllheim, which is on the right bank.
 
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I'm begging you to add Monaco, if not at release, at some point! Would one little location of that significance hurt so much?

Monaco was much bigger than it is today, encompassing neighbouring areas such as Menton, Beausoleil, Roquebrune, and more if I recall correctly, mainly to the east of modern day Monaco. These areas only left Monaco in the 1800s, so Monaco could be much larger than a just 2 sq km location and thus justify its existence. While this map is outside the scope of Project Caesar, it illustrates the size of Monaco and its influence on neighbouring towns that existed far before this.
 

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Of course, not every tiny location and polity can be put on the map, but the important ones should be.


and the Project Caesar already makes compromises between size and importance.

  • Some small statelets (City-states like Cologne or prince-Abbey of Prüm) of the HRE seem to be slightly oversized in the game.
  • The Mercator projection inflates the size of Europe or Japan with their many tags compared to tropical areas.

Other Paradox games have inflated the size of important locations.


Iwo Jima is 29.86 sq. km (roughly same size)

Gibraltar is only 6.8 sq. km (MUCH smaller)


Both are states in HoI4.


That’s due to their importance.

Monaco was important for multiple reasons:
  • Being a natural fortress.
  • Genoa as a thorn I their side and source of trouble for over 150 years
  • France as a minor ally in the HYW (Monaco set ships to sack Southampton and troops to fight at Cressy)
  • Milan, Savoy and Naples due to Monaco’s meeting into Italian affairs.
  • Spain, when being a Spanish protectorate in the late 16th-early 17th century, giving Spain a foothold on the coast near southern France.
  • other important (catholic) ruling families of Europe. The Grimaldi have intermarried with them historically.
Unlike Couto Misto, Monaco and the ruling Grimaldi family survives to this day.

the Tinto team has 2 options:
  • keep Monaco out and over-simplify the things
  • add Monaco as a visually oversized location. (Things like pop numbers, arable land, building slots etc etc. should be still kept accurate)
We believe the second option would make better gameplay and more in line with the design principles of the new game.
This was much better than said than by me. Monaco is a historically significant enough location to be present on the map. It lends itself to more interesting events and gameplay, as well as the possibility of modded content for this location without the need to alter the map to add the location.

I am of course biased as I have lived there, but it really is an interesting place with tons of history that fits the scope of Project Caesar, that should absolutely be present as a location in Project Caesar. I am happy to see support for Monaco here, despite its size!
 
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It looks so good! I love the advanced simulation aspect!

I hope that in terms of the style of the map, the ocean etc. it will look a bit like eu4, which really had a style that suited the period perfectly. It makes us want to travel, to go on adventure and discovery. I hope there will be that in this “Project caesar”.
 
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