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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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You're not really going to trade grapes across continents. The actual trade good is wine.
For the same reason, the trade good shouldn't be olives, but oil.
Maybe the solution, although probably unnecessary, would consist in setting grapes as almost zero ducat of value, to encourage producing wine. But again, maybe unnecessary.
I remember the game Zeus: Master of the Olympus portrayed the cultivation of wine grapes and olives, or their import, as well as winemaking and olive oil making. But it's rather on a local scope. :)
 
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Much later than I hoped, I have a limited proposal to make for Brittany. I do hope you can find room for several more locations: @Calliyop has made a proposal which I would love to see implemented, and which would still leave Brittany with a substantially lower location density (per sq. km; unsure about population) than, say, the Peloponnese. That said, if you have to add just one, I'd suggest it be Carhaix. It could take up roughly this space:
View attachment 1142427
If you do this but add no other locations in the region, then I'd also recommend extending Quimper a bit to the north, aligning Brest's borders with those of the historical Pays de Léon.

Carhaix is mentioned having "burghers" as early as 1210, as is shown as a town (and centre of, at the minimum, the inland region of Poher) on maps of medieval Brittany, including this one:
View attachment 1142576

Carhaix was also the seat of a ducal bailiwick (sénéchaussée), at least sporadically, from the late 12th century right up to the annexation of the duchy. Afterwards it was the seat of a royal court of justice.

As far as goods go: Carhaix was apparently a centre for goldsmiths and silversmiths in the late middle ages. But since Carhaix was quite a small town at this time, I'm guessing the location will be counted as rural if it's included, so I'll focus on raw goods. In the 16th century, cattle raised in the area were were supposedly highly prized and sought as far away as Normandy and Paris, and flax and hemp were grown and brought to nearby ports, so while I don't have sources on production closer to the game start date, both livestock and fiber crops are plausible choices. (I had a source which quoted a traveller from the 1790s mentioning that Carhaix had been famed for its wild game before the revolution, but I can't find that article anymore.)

Now, there are other towns not represented as locations which were at least as important as Carhaix at the time. If I choose Carhaix above any other, it's because it could be carved out of three fairly large locations, and because of the geography of the area. Carhaix lies in the Châteaulin Basin, between the Monts d'Arrée to the north and the Montagnes Noires to the south. To have this area split between several neighbouring flatland coastal locations makes things like troop movement feel a true to life. Even if these hills aren't deemed important enough to make for a Hill-terrain location, having the area be distinct from those around it will help a bit with immersion; besides, Carhaix was once a hub from which several Roman roads branched out, and many significant roads continued to pass through there in the middle ages and in early modern times.

My main sources for all my claims are Morphogenèse de la ville de Carhaix au Moyen Age by Régis Le Gall-Tanguy and Carhaix : des origines à nos jours originally published on the municipality's website. There are one or two other (academic) sources which I read but can't find now, I'll add them here if I manage to dig them up again.

Thanks for reading, I hope this all comes in handy!
How did I manage to miss your suggestions!?! Thanks for bringing them and for redirecting to the topic I've specifically created! I hope you'll enjoy a lot the whole map suggestions for France I'm eager to publish. Although I may create another, specific topic for that one, and ask people for bringing sources as I fear I won't be able to do all the work so quickly. :D
 
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Hello there!



I hope you're all in good shape, and that you still love MAPS!

First, I wanted to make sure there wasn't another post like this one published earlier. I re-read all of the feedback on the official topic called Tinto Maps #3 on France and gathered infos on which I wanna work, in order to propose other mapviews, since a map isn't only political or administrative.

Yet, the very map I worked on for the last weeks is over, and I wished to publish it, as it contains lots, I mean, LOTS of suggestions on the whole country. It focuses on locations/provinces/areas, with emphasis on movement realism between a location to another. That is why I also added a lot of impassable areas, enhancing Massif Central, Vosges, Morvan and Jura, as well as the Alps.


It may be considered as too many locations, I am aware of it. Some do like it, some others don't, as I've noticed it with my suggestions for Brittany (you can always read it here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...mple-of-map-correction.1682118/#post-29657077). But remember these are merely suggestions on what could be possible, without falling into a version too complex for nothing.

I failed gathering all the possible sources of information to support the new candidates, since this proposal contains a total of four hundred and seventy five locations. Yes, you've read it: 475 locations! That's... a lot. There could be some cuts here and there. But anyway, since it's become something complex, I'd like to ask for anyone of good will, wanting to help, to make some research about the new locations. As there is still research that has to be done on locations that were already implemented by Paradox Tinto. Alone, we go faster, together, we go farther... ;) So, again, sorry for not bringing sources on the table (at least I can post websites links now), but it demands a lot of time, which I already spent on making this whole map proposal. Feel free to help, to advise, to give your opinion on that. I hope you'll enjoy it!


Let's not waste time: the map, as promised.

France map suggestions V1.png


Given time and effort, I'll publish proposals on vegetation/terrain, cultures and raw goods, as I've made copies of the useful suggestions found in Tinto Maps #3. Again, if you wanna help with bringing sources, or even suggesting your own maps for vegetation, terrain and other layers, feel free to do so! I'd be relieved to be helped on this topic. Below is the link of the the folder I've uploaded, so that you can access to the core map file itself (if you know a bit how to work with Inksape), as well as the suggestions many have brought.



Thanks for reading me! Take care of yourself. And make la France great again! :D Today is a bright day, messieurs! En avant !
 
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Im not sure a 50% increase in locations is a good idea. More locations does not mean better gameplay or even the meta. Since population matters more. Let alone most of these provinces wouldnt even produce unique or new trade goods.

The work you put in is commendable and really interesting, but I don think this much location density is necessary or helpful. If we are talking 20-50 more locations to round out some errors and weird decisions from the first map thats fine. But nearly 500 locations is insane

edit: save your design for a mod if you want, but im not sure people going insane on locations is a good thing
 
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Im not sure a 50% increase in locations is a good idea. More locations does not mean better gameplay or even the meta. Since population matters more. Let alone most of these provinces wouldnt even produce unique or new trade goods.

The work you put in is commendable and really interesting, but I don think this much location density is necessary or helpful. If we are talking 20-50 more locations to round out some errors and weird decisions from the first map thats fine. But nearly 500 locations is insane

edit: save your design for a mod if you want, but im not sure people going insane on locations is a good thing
That's why it's a V1, and why I wanna reduce the whole thing to about 400 locations. :)
 
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Alright, here are my thoughts on the region names, as a Frenchman from Brittany, going roughly north to south by larger area and keeping mostly to the list of Ancien Régime provinces or natural regions of France. Most of these will be "change the name of the city to the name of the region around it":

Arras -> Artois [the area also includes French Flanders, but eh, Artois is good enough I guess]
Amiens -> Picardie
Guise -> Guise works but Vermandois would be better IMO

Rouen -> Caux, name of the "Pays" around Rouen
Alençon -> Being on such a large area, there is no good alternate name for it. Maybe Ouche, which is the area roughly in the center?
Caen -> No alternate name, the area is litterally "Plaine de Caen" in French. Caen is good
Cherbourg -> Either Cotentin (the better one, and the name of the rough area) or the name of one of its two constituent provinces: Avranchais or Coutançais.

Dreux -> Drouais
Paris -> Either keep it or Île de France, both work
Nemours -> Gâtinais? It's a fair bit larger, but Nemours was one of the capitals of Gâtinais
Meaux -> Brie
Soissons -> Soissonnais
Reims -> Rémois
Châlons-en-Champagne -> Champagne
Troyes -> It's also Champagne, so maybe keep Troyes
Chaumont -> Bassigny

Verdun -> Barrois
Metz -> Messin
Nancy -> No other possible name I think?

Lower Alsace -> no better name
Upper Alsace -> no better name

Cornouaille -> Basse-Bretagne
Vannes -> Vannetais
Rennes -> Rennais
Nantes -> Nantais

Angers -> Anjou
Mayenne -> no better name
Le Mans -> Maine
Blois -> Blésois maybe? Blois is fine as is
Tours -> Touraine
Orléans -> Orléanais
Berry -> no better name

Nevers -> Nivernais
Dijon -> Dijonnais
Chalon-sur-Saône -> Either Chalon (its name at the time) or Chalonnais

Amont, Milieu Aval -> I deeply hate these, but they are historical, so no better name.

Thouars -> Vendée
Saintes -> Saintonge
Poitiers -> Poitou (there is also Angoumois in there that in an ideal world would be split)
Aubusson -> Marche (and IIRC its main city should be Guéret, not Aubusson, but I'm not sure)
Limoges -> Limousin

Bourbon -> Either keep it or Bourbonnais, either is fine.
Clermont -> Auvergne? Not really sure
Aurillac -> Fine as is, from the Counts of Aurillac
Lyon -> Keep it, or Lyonnais, either is fine

Bresse -> no better name
Vienne -> Viennois or Bas-Dauphiné (better IMO)
Grenoble -> Haut-Dauphiné
Savoy -> no better name

Nice  -> probably keep as is, it wasn't in France at any point in this era anyways
Avignon -> Venaissin?
Aix-en-Provence -> Aix

Nîmes -> I thought for sure there was a better name but alas, couldn't find one
Viviers -> Vivarais
Narbonne -> Narbonnais
Toulouse -> no better name
Carcassonne -> No better name

Rouergue -> no better name
Quercy -> no better name
Périgord -> no better name
Bordeaux -> Bordelais

Muret -> Comminges
Auch -> Armagnac
Mont-de-Marsan -> Landes? May be too anachronistic
Dax -> no better name, as this was historically just part of Gascogne
Pau -> Béarn

Bayonne -> Labourd


EDIT: for the locations, many have [city]-sur-[river] (Chalon-sur-Saône for example). Most of these were added later and were only known by their first word (like Chalon). Northwest of Paris, there is also a pink location, unreadable but probabaly Conflans-Sainte-Honorine ? If I'm right, it was only called Conflans in this era, and was a fairly important city.
Apparently Landes (or Lannes, reflecting the Landas/Lanas dialectal split in Occitan/Gascon) has existed as a term since at least the 1250s. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sénéchaussée_des_Lannes
 
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Hello,

I hope it is not too late to post a suggestion here, but I just wanted to suggest little map changes around Savoy in order to make the locations and ownership setup more historically accurate:

The first thing is that in 1337, contrary to what is showed in Project Caesar, the clean current Savoyard region was still a feudal bordergore mess. It was from this time that Savoy territory began to be a consolidated bloc. The clean frontier between Savoy and Viennois/France didn't exists until 1355 with the treaty of Paris, following the selling of Dauphine to France and the end of the Dauphine/Savoyard wars and rivalry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_(1355)

Contrary to what is represented in the DD, in 1337, Viennois hold the barony of Faucigny (gained by inheritance at the end of the XIII century) and the count of Geneve hold Gex. Thats means that Savoy is in a bad shape territorially as they can hardly reach all their territories (Faucigny and Geneve split the northern Vaud from southern Proper Savoy, the Alps being the only route to keep the two together). Conquest is literally the only option for Savoy in 1337 if they want to get enough strength to survive until 1836.

Here what I suggest in term of locations redraw, in order to better represent the existing frontiers and setup in the region (taking also account of future historical frontiers):
SavoyLocations.jpg

(Frontiers are only suggestion based more or less to what the territories looks like on maps used as references)

1: Faucigny: this location should be owned by Viennois (and claimed by Savoy), redrawn in order to expand a little bit south to contain the Beaufortin, as it was owned by Viennois too

2: new location (Thonon): owned by Viennois too, part of the barony of Fauciny, but split from the (1) location in order to represent the border of the territory held by Bern when they invaded southern Lemanic coast (XVI century) (location also claimed by Savoy)

3: Evian location, owned by Savoy, with a southern border slightly redrawn in order to represent the territory held by Valaisian during the war with Bern and Geneva (XVI century, same event as previously mentioned)

4: Geneva city should be more spread on the coast of Lemenc and less expanded to the south to better represent the frontier of the Republic of Geneva (the frontier of the Geneva canton was actually created after Napoleonic wars by taking territories from neightbourg countries

5: redrawn Annecy location to better reflect the possession of the count of Geneve

6: Gex should be owned by Geneve (the in-game country) as it was conquered by Savoy only in 1353

7: maybe the addition of a location here (or maybe not as it will be too small and not 1337 historically relevant) to represent the part of the territory kept by Savoy following the annexation of Bresse, Bugey and Gex by France, kept in order to allow Spaniard troops to go into the Spanish owned Franche-Comté without entering France. Owned by Geneve in 1337

8: adapted Belley location, owned by Savoy

9: new location (Voiron) part of Viennois (the region) owned by Savoy in 1337: it seems that the true scale of the territories held by the counts of Savoy in Viennois is smaller than the in-game locations composing the region, but I think these territories had enough importance to be represented as a location in-game. Owned by Savoy in 1337 (and claimed by Viennois)

10: redrawn Trévoux location, owned by Viennois (and not by Savoy)

11: redrawn Bourg location, owned by Savoy

12: new location (Nantua ?), owned by a new country Thoire, which was a principality owned by a local dynasty of some importance

13: I also suggest to add a location here (Conflans): this place was a strategic key point as it was the footstep of the great alpine valleys leading to Italy from France. Important fortresses were built here (Montmelian, Charboniere ...) in order to keep armies invading Italy out. If fortress zone of control is kept from previous game, a location should be added here (with a fort ;) of course) in order to represent this importance. Owned by Savoy in 1337

and finally, a slight redrawing of the Grenoble location if the (9) location is added


If the selling of Dauphnie is represented in game, I suggest a similar event in order to simulate the treaty of Paris of 1355, where Savoy ceded the (9) location to France in order to gain the (1), (2) and (10) locations (if not conquered by player or AI before that).


As a footnote, in term of typography, the surrounding of Geneva sounds too mountainous for what it look like in reality (Annecy and current Evian location should be hilly imho), and maybe I finnaly suggest to make Vaud and Lower Wallis closer of Savoy and Bresse in term of Area (instead of Neuchatel and Friburg), as these territories were close in 1337, and a protestant Savoy shouldn't have much trouble to keep Vaud if the Reform spread to this region and make an uniform country from these territories (and maybe put Geneva location into Savoy province as the city is built in the end of a basin of which slopes are considered part of Savoy, and the dukes of Savoy wished to make the city their capital).

Maps used as reference:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Karte-Entwicklung-Savoyen-bis-1789.png
https://torpille.ch/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Territoriale-Entwicklung-CH.png
 
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Ok. So I just ended working on terrain types for France. Maybe there could be a couple of improvements here and there (I'm not entirely sure with Barrois' depiction on it), but I believe it's relevant enough. So here we go with the terrain map!

France map suggestions_terrain.png


In Massif Central, I thought it would be better to represent the three locations of Gévaudan as mountains, rather than plateau. I still ask myself if I should change it, however, given the photos we find on the Internet... really, Gévaudan feels like mountains.

Next, I should share my suggestions for vegetation. Stay tuned!
 
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That's why it's a V1, and why I wanna reduce the whole thing to about 400 locations. :)
Even though it might not be implemented in 1.0, it would surely come with some potential french rework several yrs later ;)
 
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Hello,

I hope it is not too late to post a suggestion here, but I just wanted to suggest little map changes around Savoy in order to make the locations and ownership setup more historically accurate:

The first thing is that in 1337, contrary to what is showed in Project Caesar, the clean current Savoyard region was still a feudal bordergore mess. It was from this time that Savoy territory began to be a consolidated bloc. The clean frontier between Savoy and Viennois/France didn't exists until 1355 with the treaty of Paris, following the selling of Dauphine to France and the end of the Dauphine/Savoyard wars and rivalry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_(1355)

Contrary to what is represented in the DD, in 1337, Viennois hold the barony of Faucigny (gained by inheritance at the end of the XIII century) and the count of Geneve hold Gex. Thats means that Savoy is in a bad shape territorially as they can hardly reach all their territories (Faucigny and Geneve split the northern Vaud from southern Proper Savoy, the Alps being the only route to keep the two together). Conquest is literally the only option for Savoy in 1337 if they want to get enough strength to survive until 1836.

Here what I suggest in term of locations redraw, in order to better represent the existing frontiers and setup in the region (taking also account of future historical frontiers):
View attachment 1148956
(Frontiers are only suggestion based more or less to what the territories looks like on maps used as references)

1: Faucigny: this location should be owned by Viennois (and claimed by Savoy), redrawn in order to expand a little bit south to contain the Beaufortin, as it was owned by Viennois too

2: new location (Thonon): owned by Viennois too, part of the barony of Fauciny, but split from the (1) location in order to represent the border of the territory held by Bern when they invaded southern Lemanic coast (XVI century) (location also claimed by Savoy)

3: Evian location, owned by Savoy, with a southern border slightly redrawn in order to represent the territory held by Valaisian during the war with Bern and Geneva (XVI century, same event as previously mentioned)

4: Geneva city should be more spread on the coast of Lemenc and less expanded to the south to better represent the frontier of the Republic of Geneva (the frontier of the Geneva canton was actually created after Napoleonic wars by taking territories from neightbourg countries

5: redrawn Annecy location to better reflect the possession of the count of Geneve

6: Gex should be owned by Geneve (the in-game country) as it was conquered by Savoy only in 1353

7: maybe the addition of a location here (or maybe not as it will be too small and not 1337 historically relevant) to represent the part of the territory kept by Savoy following the annexation of Bresse, Bugey and Gex by France, kept in order to allow Spaniard troops to go into the Spanish owned Franche-Comté without entering France. Owned by Geneve in 1337

8: adapted Belley location, owned by Savoy

9: new location (Voiron) part of Viennois (the region) owned by Savoy in 1337: it seems that the true scale of the territories held by the counts of Savoy in Viennois is smaller than the in-game locations composing the region, but I think these territories had enough importance to be represented as a location in-game. Owned by Savoy in 1337 (and claimed by Viennois)

10: redrawn Trévoux location, owned by Viennois (and not by Savoy)

11: redrawn Bourg location, owned by Savoy

12: new location (Nantua ?), owned by a new country Thoire, which was a principality owned by a local dynasty of some importance

13: I also suggest to add a location here (Conflans): this place was a strategic key point as it was the footstep of the great alpine valleys leading to Italy from France. Important fortresses were built here (Montmelian, Charboniere ...) in order to keep armies invading Italy out. If fortress zone of control is kept from previous game, a location should be added here (with a fort ;) of course) in order to represent this importance. Owned by Savoy in 1337

and finally, a slight redrawing of the Grenoble location if the (9) location is added


If the selling of Dauphnie is represented in game, I suggest a similar event in order to simulate the treaty of Paris of 1355, where Savoy ceded the (9) location to France in order to gain the (1), (2) and (10) locations (if not conquered by player or AI before that).


As a footnote, in term of typography, the surrounding of Geneva sounds too mountainous for what it look like in reality (Annecy and current Evian location should be hilly imho), and maybe I finnaly suggest to make Vaud and Lower Wallis closer of Savoy and Bresse in term of Area (instead of Neuchatel and Friburg), as these territories were close in 1337, and a protestant Savoy shouldn't have much trouble to keep Vaud if the Reform spread to this region and make an uniform country from these territories (and maybe put Geneva location into Savoy province as the city is built in the end of a basin of which slopes are considered part of Savoy, and the dukes of Savoy wished to make the city their capital).

Maps used as reference:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Karte-Entwicklung-Savoyen-bis-1789.png
https://torpille.ch/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Territoriale-Entwicklung-CH.png
I believe to have read your post on the original Tinto Maps #3, but it's good to read it here too. I'll take a close look at your suggestions! Although I hesitate mixing Thonon with Evian, for instance, since it's a bit too many locations... or else, I'll try to find evidence of Évian relevance in that time. A lot of very good ideas! Thanks! :D
 
Hello there!



I hope you're all in good shape, and that you still love MAPS!

First, I wanted to make sure there wasn't another post like this one published earlier. I re-read all of the feedback on the official topic called Tinto Maps #3 on France and gathered infos on which I wanna work, in order to propose other mapviews, since a map isn't only political or administrative.

Yet, the very map I worked on for the last weeks is over, and I wished to publish it, as it contains lots, I mean, LOTS of suggestions on the whole country. It focuses on locations/provinces/areas, with emphasis on movement realism between a location to another. That is why I also added a lot of impassable areas, enhancing Massif Central, Vosges, Morvan and Jura, as well as the Alps.


It may be considered as too many locations, I am aware of it. Some do like it, some others don't, as I've noticed it with my suggestions for Brittany (you can always read it here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...mple-of-map-correction.1682118/#post-29657077). But remember these are merely suggestions on what could be possible, without falling into a version too complex for nothing.

I failed gathering all the possible sources of information to support the new candidates, since this proposal contains a total of four hundred and seventy five locations. Yes, you've read it: 475 locations! That's... a lot. There could be some cuts here and there. But anyway, since it's become something complex, I'd like to ask for anyone of good will, wanting to help, to make some research about the new locations. As there is still research that has to be done on locations that were already implemented by Paradox Tinto. Alone, we go faster, together, we go farther... ;) So, again, sorry for not bringing sources on the table (at least I can post websites links now), but it demands a lot of time, which I already spent on making this whole map proposal. Feel free to help, to advise, to give your opinion on that. I hope you'll enjoy it!


Let's not waste time: the map, as promised.

View attachment 1148918

Given time and effort, I'll publish proposals on vegetation/terrain, cultures and raw goods, as I've made copies of the useful suggestions found in Tinto Maps #3. Again, if you wanna help with bringing sources, or even suggesting your own maps for vegetation, terrain and other layers, feel free to do so! I'd be relieved to be helped on this topic. Below is the link of the the folder I've uploaded, so that you can access to the core map file itself (if you know a bit how to work with Inksape), as well as the suggestions many have brought.



Thanks for reading me! Take care of yourself. And make la France great again! :D Today is a bright day, messieurs! En avant !
Hi, thanks for the incredible work, that's a lot to process !
Juste a quick suggestions on the location north of Saint-Germain, it is I suppose the Vexin Français ?
For the location name :
- Cergy-Pontoise feels anachronistic as it is the name if the planned city built in the 1970's around Cergy and Pontoise, which were distinct cities until then.
- Pontoise may be a better candidate than Magny as Pontoise was the "capital" of the Vexin Français and was granted the city status in 1188 and had some good economixc dynamics at the start of the game, until the start of the 100 years War.
 
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Hello there!



I hope you're all in good shape, and that you still love MAPS!

First, I wanted to make sure there wasn't another post like this one published earlier. I re-read all of the feedback on the official topic called Tinto Maps #3 on France and gathered infos on which I wanna work, in order to propose other mapviews, since a map isn't only political or administrative.

Yet, the very map I worked on for the last weeks is over, and I wished to publish it, as it contains lots, I mean, LOTS of suggestions on the whole country. It focuses on locations/provinces/areas, with emphasis on movement realism between a location to another. That is why I also added a lot of impassable areas, enhancing Massif Central, Vosges, Morvan and Jura, as well as the Alps.


It may be considered as too many locations, I am aware of it. Some do like it, some others don't, as I've noticed it with my suggestions for Brittany (you can always read it here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...mple-of-map-correction.1682118/#post-29657077). But remember these are merely suggestions on what could be possible, without falling into a version too complex for nothing.

I failed gathering all the possible sources of information to support the new candidates, since this proposal contains a total of four hundred and seventy five locations. Yes, you've read it: 475 locations! That's... a lot. There could be some cuts here and there. But anyway, since it's become something complex, I'd like to ask for anyone of good will, wanting to help, to make some research about the new locations. As there is still research that has to be done on locations that were already implemented by Paradox Tinto. Alone, we go faster, together, we go farther... ;) So, again, sorry for not bringing sources on the table (at least I can post websites links now), but it demands a lot of time, which I already spent on making this whole map proposal. Feel free to help, to advise, to give your opinion on that. I hope you'll enjoy it!


Let's not waste time: the map, as promised.

View attachment 1148918

Given time and effort, I'll publish proposals on vegetation/terrain, cultures and raw goods, as I've made copies of the useful suggestions found in Tinto Maps #3. Again, if you wanna help with bringing sources, or even suggesting your own maps for vegetation, terrain and other layers, feel free to do so! I'd be relieved to be helped on this topic. Below is the link of the the folder I've uploaded, so that you can access to the core map file itself (if you know a bit how to work with Inksape), as well as the suggestions many have brought.



Thanks for reading me! Take care of yourself. And make la France great again! :D Today is a bright day, messieurs! En avant !

Great modification.
For the 2 Barrois, the real names are :
Barrois Royal -> Barrois Mouvant
Barrois Ducal -> Barrois Non-mouvant
 
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Hi, thanks for the incredible work, that's a lot to process !
Juste a quick suggestions on the location north of Saint-Germain, it is I suppose the Vexin Français ?
For the location name :
- Cergy-Pontoise feels anachronistic as it is the name if the planned city built in the 1970's around Cergy and Pontoise, which were distinct cities until then.
- Pontoise may be a better candidate than Magny as Pontoise was the "capital" of the Vexin Français and was granted the city status in 1188 and had some good economixc dynamics at the start of the game, until the start of the 100 years War.
Hey, thank you for your support! Indeed, it's a lot to process... I'm not counting my hours aha! :p

Exactly. Saint-Germain is the location meant to represent Saint-Germain-en-Laye, to the northeast is a chunk of Paris location, and just to the north is, effectively, Vexin français. You're making a point! Cergy-Pontoise is a ifuh4zloFH96PeHF, I mean, modern creation. Thanks for alerting me on this error! And Pontoise, as you said, is more relevant than Magny, for the time period (both had always been strategic as checkpoints, on the road between Paris and Normandy, but Pontoise prosperred longer and has almost, always been the local capital, if I'm not mistaken!). :D
 
Great modification.
For the 2 Barrois, the real names are :
Barrois Royal -> Barrois Mouvant
Barrois Ducal -> Barrois Non-mouvant
True. I've used the rare naming, because I believed they would less confuse the player. What would be ideal is giving the choice to display either the historical names, or some simplification? Just like the name kingdom of Naples is used, instead of its official, historical name: Kingdom of Sicily below (the strait of) Messina; or its counterpart, the kingdom of (proper) Sicily, whose official name was: Kingdom of Sicily beyond (the strait of) Messina. A poll on which names people would prefer for the two Barrois would be great!

I'm gonna make one just below, real quick.
 
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Actually, I didn't notice the topic I made has been transfered here. So that answers where is the best place, until the official map review, for these suggestions! Thank your dear devs.

After some tiring sessions of work, I managed to create my map suggestions for Vegetation. It's based on the original Tinto mapwork, on infos one can find on the net (eeeer... yeah, that doesn't sound too professional...!), as well as the suggestions posted here.

I notably used the link below, when deciding if I had to put woods or not. Not easy to do. But step-by-step, we're all gonna find a solution! I'll even post three interesting links (God, I'm so relieved to be able to share them now! :D):






Before you shout at me... yes! I do support marshes terrain represented under the vegetation layer! It's obvious to me. And if I'm wrong, and that marshes should still be part of terrain type (which I understand as topography), then let's talk about it.

The thing is, when thinking about vegetation, we only think about what's on the surface, and not about terrain composition, vegetation networks and roots system depending on the kind of vegetal, as well as the huge microfauna meant to live under our feet. So maybe I'm the one biased here for marshes, only put on vegetation layer. :)


And now, for the map result:


France map suggestions_vegetation.png


There are some territorial names placed as indicators for the support of marshes representation in France. Except I forgot to write those of Landes / Landes de Gascogne, but before the forest planted by man, the soil consisted of marshes.

I wonder, by the way, how will locations like the coastal ones will behave with secured ports? Not only for France, but taking this example, the western winds of the Atlantic are harsh, which explains why there are not so many ports on the western, Atlantic side of French coasts, and why essentially, no merchant, no army came from the sea to disembark, for instance, on the coast of Landes area. To be clear, one of the problems EU4 had, when playing as France, is the player can build shipyards in any coastal province (can't say location since it wasn't used back then). While I believe ports should even more be key placements due to, somehow, their rarity (especially for trading ports and military ports, not fishing ones). So... I wonder if my question has already been asked, but since I've not seen it anywhere, I prefer to share it here. I'm sure you'll read it.

Next... well, do I really need to create a map for cultures? Since the original one is very impressive and accurate. Except maybe for Maine, but Maine has always been a transition zone, just like we see a continuation of the western tongues, from Gallo to "Francien" (français / French, the language originally used in Île-de-France... the area where people were called French initially).

Anyway. If a cultural mapmode suggestions is considered relevant, I'll work on it (though I won't have a lot to change to that!). It's very late. Thanks again for reading me! Trying my best. Good night, and see ya! ;)
 
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First, I want to say, beautiful map you got there, you put a lot of work in it, that's for sure !

I would have one small details fixed, however, as you fused Bearn and Bigorre for the province ; at the time, the Bearnese and Bigourdan were somewhat of mortal ennemies, they invaded each other pretty much every twenty years, and try to rob the county of the other (well, county for Bigorre, Viscounty for Béarn).
Plus, right at the time of the game, Béarn is independant, probably the independest (that not a word, I know) of the french vassal, whereas Bigorre is under a Personnal Union with the king of France. So they probably need to be apart.

Plus, if I can bore a little bit more of people with the story of Bigorre, let me just say that it could be great to have the province, with the death of the last countess, forty years before the game start, the King of France, the King of Navarra and the King of England all claimed the small throne of the county, so that could spark some interesting event for the two other power to try and reclaim the county, as a bridgehead to conquer the rest of France ! Plus, as I said, during the Hundred Years War, Tarbes began to be very important as a trade node for the region, to link Bayonne and Toulouse.

That's all for me, I seriously hope that your work will be recognized !
 
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First, I want to say, beautiful map you got there, you put a lot of work in it, that's for sure !

I would have one small details fixed, however, as you fused Bearn and Bigorre for the province ; at the time, the Bearnese and Bigourdan were somewhat of mortal ennemies, they invaded each other pretty much every twenty years, and try to rob the county of the other (well, county for Bigorre, Viscounty for Béarn).
Plus, right at the time of the game, Béarn is independant, probably the independest (that not a word, I know) of the french vassal, whereas Bigorre is under a Personnal Union with the king of France. So they probably need to be apart.

Plus, if I can bore a little bit more of people with the story of Bigorre, let me just say that it could be great to have the province, with the death of the last countess, forty years before the game start, the King of France, the King of Navarra and the King of England all claimed the small throne of the county, so that could spark some interesting event for the two other power to try and reclaim the county, as a bridgehead to conquer the rest of France ! Plus, as I said, during the Hundred Years War, Tarbes began to be very important as a trade node for the region, to link Bayonne and Toulouse.

That's all for me, I seriously hope that your work will be recognized !
Your post is of great help! Thank you, I'm gonna modify the map then.
I don't really know what's the devs' rule for the number of locations in a province, I've noticed it was ranged between 3 to 6, 7 to the max. But apparently there are a couple of locations, paired by two, which constitute a province ingame. So I'll apply this kind of exception here. ;)

The startdate and first years of gameplay, by the way, will be interesting, playing as Béarn, with the famous Gaston Fébus! (thanks to @perry7484 who reminded me of him) If I'm correct, he wanted to make Béarn independant, as well as the local people considered the kingdom of France far away, and so, assurely foreign. Maybe that could be interesting to see Béarn independant throughout the whole timesframe, and play tall? (I know, it's always difficult to restrain ourselves from waging war and grabbing other pieces of land...!)

Corrected as it had to be!
Capture d'écran 2024-06-17 171053.png

Also, I really like the word independest! But when one claims his land to be, or become independant, he should try not to shout too loudly, as did the famous Perceval de Galles... aha that will be all for the private joke! :p
"PAYS DE GALLES INDÉPENDAAAANT!"

Again, let's bring all the possible knowledge to Tinto Team! (without being too complex aha, for gameplay reasons ^^)
 
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