Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries
Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Previous dev diary Next dev diary
Show only dev responses

Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).

Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
  • 208Love
  • 164Like
  • 5
  • 4
Reactions:
Sort by date Sort by reaction score
Hi everyone! Hope that you're all ok and the week has started well for you?

The Cardinal of the Holy Map has returned with a brand new map, as to give, again, helpful suggestions.
This time I'm bringing raw materials on the table! Yeah. That's the good news! The sad one is, I could have worked only on the area of Brittany.
As you may see it by reading this post, I've put a lot of time doing research and trying to support locations candidates and other informations with the most possible sources, without going too mad (or is it too late? :rolleyes:).

So, let me present the works I've made for this:
Suggestions for Brittany

Province : Léon

Saint-Renan / Brest : warport in the Middle Ages, trading port, remarkable castle, but not a town yet. Nearby, to the west, Saint-Renan is a trading town, more inhabited, considered the center of the area. It becomes the capital of a sénéchaussée (equivalent to a bailiwick) by 1340, with civil, military and judicial authority. The town develops well until Brest becomes the main location. That one earns the status of town by 1593 ; becomes a true military (and trading) port in 1631 with the creation of its arsenal; Brest is heavily fortified by Vauban in 1683.

Raw material : Fish. Would assurely produce naval supplies later (though not a raw material).
Suggestion: Best to set Saint-Renan as capital location, until the mid-1600’s, then Brest. Or call it Saint-Renan-Brest / Saint-Renan & Brest.

Sources :https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63cfa6edb1fba3.00223062/2015_12.pdf
https://www.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63d03052041a79.60630219/1992_04.pdf
https://www.expotem.fr/2016/10/histoire-de-saint-renan/

-----
Landerneau : One of the most important towns of Léon (capital of the county/viscounty). Trade location more important than Brest in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, due to its port and to its obligatory place of passage for land traffic. Lesser castle compared to Brest’s one, although Landerneau had not only its own castle, but also two other ones, protecting it on its sides, those of Joyeuse-Garde and La Roche-Maurice. Famous for its linen textiles (crées), certainly a fertile area, but also famous for the quality of its cut stone (used for many of its buildings during the 17th century) : can be quoted the stone of Logonna and the stone of Kersanton. The town goes on prospering in Project Caesar’s timeframe.

Raw material: Linen would fit in, but stone is more interesting, as linen can be used in the next location.
Suggestion : Set Landerneau with farmlands vegetation type (Léon is known for its fertile lands), but with Stone as raw material, and not fiber crops for linen.

Sources : https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k3340145b/f11.item.texteImage

Or here, for more readability : http://excerpts.numilog.com/books/9782402536943.pdf

(the issue is only the first 20 pages are freely readable)
https://laforest.bzh/histoire/chateau-de-joyeuse-garde/

-----

Saint-Pol-de-Léon : Seat of the bishopric of Léon, important historical town of the area. The city was prosperous in the 1200’s. Its cathedral has been built between years 1230 and 1539 (gothic, norman-inspired style). Generally, in the 1400’s and 1500’s, towns of Léon enrich themselves with such buildings of fine architecture, demonstrating their wealth, though the city was partly burnt during the War of the Breton Succession. Its trade port reaches its peak in the 1400’s. The area is famous for the creation of linen textiles, the famous crées.

Raw material : A common mistake is considering Saint-Pol is famous for its legumes : actually, it is, but only for our modern era (20th and 21th centuries). In Project Caesar, the culture of linen, used for fine linen textiles, as historically, would be more adequate.
Suggestion : set raw material as fiber crops ; to help reflecting Léon fertile lands, set vegetation type to farmlands.

Sources : Not as excellent as the previous ones, but still, better to quote them :
https://www.terresceltes.net/bretagne/saint-pol-de-leon-capitale-historique-leon
http://www.infobretagne.com/saint-pol-de-leon.htm
http://www.infobretagne.com/saint-pol-de-leon-cathedrale.htm
http://roscoff-quotidien.chez-alice.fr/minihy-histoire.pdf

A picture showing the textiles, cloth making areas of Brittany:

manufacture_toile_e.jpg


This other one displaying the castles network in Léon, in the Middle Ages:
Capture d'écran 2024-06-18 170307.png






Province : Trégor


Morlaix : The location was a town of strategic, military importance in the Middle Ages, fortified by a castle. Developped its maritime trade since the 13th century. It already produced linen textiles in that time, and also relied on fishery. After the English occupation in Brittany, during the 14th, Morlaix prospered throughout the 15th. By the end of the century, it counted 4 to 5K inhabitants; however it became vulnerable, due to both its prosperity and military dismantling (after the French-Breton War). Was a tax center (because of growing trade). Burnt and pillaged in 1522, took time to recover. Becomes again an important military place in the end of the 16th, for a short time (the cost is too high to maintain defences, falling in ruins in the 17th). The town still prospers as the first trading port of local linen textiles, essentially coming from nearby Léon. Morlaix becomes the second main corsair town of Brittany in the 18th (the first one being Saint-Malo).

Raw material: Could be fish, linen, hemp, cereals. So either Fish or Fiber crops?
Suggestion: Morlaix set with a castle; fiber crops for raw materials, but fish is relevant too (equal importance for both since the 13th or 14th century).

Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63cfc74366a6f9.22366619/2002_01.pdf
https://www.persee.fr/doc/bec_0373-6237_1985_num_143_1_450376_t1_0209_0000₂

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5789163j/f48.item.r=Carantec.langFR
http://www.le-chiffon-rouge-morlaix...la-naissance-de-la-ville-a-la-revolution.html
http://www.infobretagne.com/morlaix-temps-anciens.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/morlaix-historique.htm
http://www.infobretagne.com/morlaix-armateurs-corsaires.htm
http://www.le-chiffon-rouge-morlaix...la-naissance-de-la-ville-a-la-revolution.html

-----

Tréguier : Seat of the Bishopric of Trégor. Port city of low trading / fishing importance. Essentially a spiritual, cultural and artistic center. Earns the status of town in 1412. The cathedral, made in gothic, breton-style, is erected between 1339 and 1435 (achieved in 1479). There was a ducal sénéchal (bailiff) in Trégor province, since 1219, based in Tréguier between 1260 and 1467. It becomes the seat of the royal sénéchaussée of Lannion, up until 1576 (transfered then to Lannion, but still quoting Tréguier honorarily). A printing house is created in 1485 (one of the very first in Brittany → the Catholicon, the first Breton-French-Latin dictionary, is printed there in 1499). Despite its port, it saw a limited economic growth. The town is pillaged several times during the era covered by Project Caesar (Hundred Years War, French Wars of Religion). The town loses its bishopric title with the French Revolution, in 1789.

Raw material: Like in Morlaix, Trégor is known for its legumes for several decades nowadays. Though I have not seen any noticeable raw material in the sources, legumes could be applied on the location, because of its lack of economic development (couldn’t be livestock as this was more lucrative).
Suggestion: Legumes as raw material, since Fish production, or Livestock here wasn’t much important in the Middle Ages and later.

Sources : http://www.infobretagne.com/treguier.htm
https://ville-treguier.fr/decouvrir-treguier/histoire.html
https://bibliotheque.idbe.bzh/data/cle_73/Histoire_Municipale_de_TrAguier_.pdf

And probably the most interesting souce, demography : https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0399-0826_1976_num_83_3_2823

Of which I've taken this very, interesting screenshot:

Capture d'écran 2024-06-19 193822.png






Province : Cornouaille

Châteaulin (instead of Crozon) : Strategic, defensive location, in the Middle Ages. Set in a crossroads. Initially a burgh, protected by a castle, merged in the 13th (or 15th century?) with neighbouring locations to become known as Châteaulin. Known for its salmon fisheries (ensuring local prosperity up until the early 19th) and slate quarries. The first bridge dates back from the 13th century. The castle is burnt in 1373, never rebuilt, instead used as a local quarry. The location is the center of a sénéchaussée in 1552, with a strong judicial activity.
The area is still a defensive location, on Crozon’ peninsula (coastal defenses are built under the royal architect Vauban in the 17th), to help defending the port of Brest → Crozon is quite populated, probably since the Middle Ages, but is not a land crossroads due to its geography.


Raw material: Fish, or stone, because of the local slate quarries (as important as the salmon fisheries, apparently after the Middle Ages).
Suggestion: Crozon, to the west, can be used as the port location, while Châteaulin can be set as the main location.

Sources : https://www.chateaulin.fr/histoire/du-5e-au-14e-siecle

https://www.chateaulin.fr/histoire/du-15e-au-17e-siecle
https://www.chateaulin.fr/histoire/18e-siecle
http://www.infobretagne.com/chateaulin.htm
https://www.bretagne-decouverte.com/chateaulin-ville-finistere/

-----

Carhaix : Strategic, defensive location, with a castle in the Middle Ages (built in the 13th?). Is the capital of the viscounty of Poher. Quite an important religious development in the same era. In the 15th, it loses its strategic relevance to become a market town. A hospital is built in 1478. Becomes a royal seat / sénéchaussée, for administration and justice, in 1565 (or before, in the same century) until the French Revolution. Known for its livestock, horses and game, in the 17th and 18th century (livestock, and perhaps horses, were certainly the town’s base economy for several centuries, maybe up to the Middle Ages). Textile and leather activity in the 17th an 18th (maybe before too?).

Raw material : Livestock, or even horses

Sources : Jean-Baptiste Ogée → http://marikavel.org/bretagne/carhaix/ogee.htm
https://hal.science/file/index/doci...enese_de_la_ville_de_Carhaix_au_Moyen_Age.pdf

https://books.openedition.org/editionscnrs/47027?lang=fr

http://www.infobretagne.com/carhaix-plouguer.htm

https://www.ville-carhaix.bzh/accueil_carhaix/decouvrir_carhaix/histoire
https://www.ville-carhaix.bzh/accueil_carhaix/decouvrir_carhaix/patrimoine

-----

Quimper : Capital of the province of (continental) Cornouaille, seat of a bishopric, then a political and religious center. Closed by walls in the middle of the 13th. Its cathedral has been built between the 13th and the 15th centuries. Four hospital establishments are present in the 15th. The towns counts 4.5K inhabitants in the middle of the 15th, and 9K inhabitants by the end of the 17th. Famous for its faience made since the early 18th century. Fish production, as well as port activities, become prominent only in the 19th and later.

Raw material: From the 14th to the 16th, Quimper’s economy relies on breeding, agriculture, fishing, but also on sheets, wool, hemp, linen, silk, parchments, hides. The religious/cultural center also attracts a few artists.
Suggestion: Set Livestock as the local raw material; to allow for some flexibility, set Horses to Carhaix.

Sources: https://www.quimper.bzh/382-le-bas-moyen-age-entre-pouvoir-episcopal-et-pouvoir-ducal.htm
https://www.quimper.bzh/384-la-renaissance-et-les-temps-modernes-quimper-sous-la-contre-reforme.htm
https://rbkistorbzh.wordpress.com/2021/05/31/les-fortifications-de-quimper-au-moyen-age/
https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1947_num_54_1_1850

http://www.infobretagne.com/quimper.htm
https://www.quimper.bzh/373-histoire-de-la-ville.htm
https://www.terresceltes.net/bretagne/quimper-capitale-de-cornouaille
https://musee-breton.finistere.fr/fr/le-palais-episcopal

-----

Quimperlé : Is an abbey town (of which the abbey is wealthy). May have had a castle, had walls in the Middle Ages. Relatively important port in the Middle Ages, perhaps also later. Seat of a ducal sénéchaussée since the 15th, becoming a royal sénéchaussée in 1665. The walls were demolished around the year 1680. 3K inhabitants in 1780.

Raw material: Fish. Could also be cereals since they were exported from the port.
Suggestions: add a town wall (also: local defenses can help reflecting the fortified town of Concarneau, to the west). Set Fish, or either cereals (sturdy grains? Wheat?) as raw material, since there are already three fish producing locations in western Brittany.

Sources : https://books.openedition.org/pup/3850?lang=fr
http://www.infobretagne.com/quimperle.htm

https://hal.univ-brest.fr/hal-01560276/document

http://marikavel.org/bretagne/quimperle/accueil.htm

Not the best transition ever made (ah-ha!), but I found this map for an ecclesiastical point of view!
1500img-1(1).jpg






Province : Penthièvre


After several research, I abandoned the idea of making Paimpol a location, which wasn’t much important until the later 18th. I made research about Châtelaudren too, capital of Goëlo, but it wasn’t as important as the nearby city of Saint-Brieuc.


Saint-Brieuc: Seat of a bishopric, important religious and cultural center. The town had no walls. A tower/castle (La Tour de Cesson), built in the 14th, was meant to protect it, but was destroyed in the late 16th. Its cathedral, built between the 13th and the 15th century, had been quickly fortified in the 14th. Saint-Brieuc and its western surroundings were usually considered as western Penthièvre (with Goëlo), while Lamballe was the seat of the eastern part. Was the center of a ducal, later royal sénéchaussée, at least since the early 15th.


Raw material : The lands are not fertile, and the economy seems to be focused on maritime trade (sale of textiles, sheets) and fishing (notably with cod fishing near Newfoundland).

Suggestion : Set Fish as raw material. Divide alpha vanilla Saint-Brieuc location into Saint-Brieuc (west) and Lamballe (east).


Sources : https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Histoire_de_la_ville_de_Saint-Brieuc/2

https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Histoire_de_la_ville_de_Saint-Brieuc/3

https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Histoire_de_la_ville_de_Saint-Brieuc/4

https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Histoire_de_la_ville_de_Saint-Brieuc/5

https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Histoire_de_la_ville_de_Saint-Brieuc/6
Page 29 and more : https://bibliotheque.idbe.bzh/data/cle_/Histoire_de_Saint_Brieuc_.pdf
https://bibliotheque.idbe.bzh/data/cle_110/Saint_Brieuc_Histoire_condensAe_.pdf

http://www.infobretagne.com/saint-brieuc.htm

-----

Lamballe : Initially a monastery. Strategic location, strongly defended by a castle (11th century to 1420), and the town is protected by walls. Was the capital of the duchy of Penthièvre (1034-1420). Center of a large jurisdiction. Large agricultural center too (grains and livestock). Important burgh in the Middle Ages, known to be a city of merchants and artisans (textile industry since the 13th). Seat of a sénéchaussée throughout all the 13th century, and later. Lamballe’s prosperity is halted with the siege (and capture) led by the ducal forces in 1420, seeing both its castle and its walls greatly dismantled. The town and its surroundings are devastated but the local economy stays dynamic. Lamballe is alternatively governed by the dukes of Brittany and by its traditional lords in the course of the 15th. Probably 2K inhabitants by the end of the century. Quite important religious activities too, despite not being the seat of a bishopric (still, it can be considered a religious center). The defenses are modereately rebuilt in the 15th and 16th, but definitely razed in 1626. The town stays quiye an important economic center after that.

Raw materials : Fiber crops (linen/hemp were used there for textiles, as well as wool). Otherwise, livestock (lots of tanneries and parchment making), or else, wheat. Both Fiber crops and Livestock would really fit in.

Suggestions : Make Lamballe a location, with a castle, town walls, set with Livestock as raw material (or Fiber crops if there are too many Livestock locations nearby).


Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63d236f6ddf000.24226078/2003_03.pdf



https://bibliotheque.idbe.bzh/data/cle_174/lamballe__dix__siacles__d__histoire.pdf

http://www.infobretagne.com/lamballe.htm

https://www.lamballe-armor.bzh/accueil-lamballe-armor/decouvrir/histoire/6000-ans-dhistoire

-----

Rohan / Loudéac : Rohan is the initial capital of the viscounts / counts of Porhoët / Rohan, the center of their possessions. Was a burgh protected by a castle, but it seems the local lords prefered surrounding locations (essentially Pontivy and Josselin), which were better defended. The castle of Rohan we know far more is the one built in Pontivy, so we can wonder what happened to the initial castle in the burgh of Rohan, or if it really was a castle (could be town walls?).

Loudéac is a town in the Middle Ages, great trade center in the heart of Brittany. Reknown for its linen textiles in the 16th and 17th centuries. Its forest contained hundreds of horses which enriched the lords of Rohan. The area, since at least the mid 15th (very probably even before) was filled with iron mines and forges.

Raw material: either Horses, or Iron (the latter would be better to represent goods diversity, as it probably constituted the main local economy). Could be lead, nonetheless not for start date in 1337, rather in the 17th century.
Suggestion: Give the location name: Loudéac, with Woods type of vegetation, and Iron as raw material.

Sources : https://journals.openedition.org/abpo/4947
http://marikavel.org/bretagne/loudeac/accueil.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/rohan.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/loudeac.htm

https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1938_num_45_1_1776

What I read about lead mines → http://www.infobretagne.com/mines-plomb-bretagne.htm

https://journals.openedition.org/abpo/4947

https://archive.wikiwix.com/cache/i...te.htm#federation=archive.wikiwix.com&tab=url

-----

Josselin : A castle is built there in the early 11th, giving birth to a burgh (seems it had the status of town). The castle and the town are razed in the years 1168-1171 by king Henry II, but get rebuilt in the following years (late 12th). Three fortified gates as well as a fortified enclosure are erected (the gates are only destroyed in 1780). Notable religious center. Josselin becomes part of the viscounty of Rohan in 1407. Its current castle is built in the late 14th, up to the early 16th. From the 15th to the 18th, the town and its area prosper due to the making of its linen sheets, taneries and fairs. The castle is partly dismantled in the early 17th, abandoned by the Rohan in the 18th.


Raw material : Fiber crops for linen, as it was used for textiles.

Suggestions : Could have a castle, but the famous one dates back to the late 14th.

Sources : https://journals.openedition.org/ccm/5426

http://www.infobretagne.com/josselin.htm

https://www.patrimoine-histoire.fr/P_Bretagne/Josselin/Josselin-Chateau.htm

https://www.terresceltes.net/bretagne/josselin

http://monumentshistoriques.free.fr/chateaux/josselin/josselin.html
Interesting source of the successive castles → http://www.infobretagne.com/josselin-chateau-rohan-histoire.htm

Another interesting source, for the whole center of Brittany : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63d1864e7eb047.72243529/2005_19.pdf







Province : Vannetais



Pontivy : Protected by a castle in the 12th century. Becomes quite an important crossroads. The town grows in the 13th and also gets protected by walls. In the early or mid-13th, Pontivy is the main political and military center of Rohan viscounty. Early 14th : is the seat of a high jurisdiction (probably a sénéchaussée). The current castle is built in the 15th and 16th. The town is prosperous due to textiles, leather and wheat trade.


Raw material : Wheat could show more materials diversity in the area, and reflect Pontivy central power of the Rohan with the need of stockpiling food. Could also be livestock for leather making, which seemed to be the main economic activity, with textiles making.
Suggestion : set either Livestock, or Wheat, as Raw material.


Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/5f46c8e109c4a0.57631791/2010_02.pdf

https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63d019cec2d350.19393700/2010_03.pdf
http://www.infobretagne.com/pontivy.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/rohan-chateau-origine-histoire.htm

https://www.jplours.fr/pontivy.htm

-----

Hennebont-Lorient : Hennebont is a strategic location in the Middle Ages. Town built in the mid-13th, fortified with walls. Quite a religious center, and quite an economic center due to its port. Suffers from several sieges in the 14th. Center of a sénéchaussée until the French Revolution. The economy is focused on maritime and agricultural trade until the 18th.

The city of Lorient is founded in the mid to late 17th, being chosen as the new center of French East India Company (instead of Le Havre). Becomes the seat of the French Royal Navy, being since then an arsenal, warport, trade port and warehouse for the Eastern trade. About 6K inhabitants around the year 1700, 14K in the year 1738.


Raw material : Wheat.

Suggestion: Add a location of Hennebont (which seems to be the main political location throughout the centuries, despite the great relevance of Lorient).

Sources about Hennebont: http://www.infobretagne.com/hennebont.htm

From page 27 → https://bibliotheque.idbe.bzh/data/cle_121/Hennebont_Ses_Origines_Son_Histoire_Religieuse_.pdf

https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63cfc73de07b11.92835806/1955_05.pdf

https://www.hennebont.net/elementor-102/

http://marikavel.com/bretagne/hennebont/histoire.htm
Sources about Lorient : https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1939_num_46_1_1788

http://www.infobretagne.com/lorient.htm

https://bibliotheque.idbe.bzh/data/cle_120/Histoire_de_Lorient_au_17e_siAcle_.pdf

-----

Vannes : One of the main historical cities of Brittany, seat of a Bishopric. Protected by large, strong walls. Seat of a sénéchaussée in the Middle Ages and later. Monetary workshop created in the mid 13th. Major trade center in the area. Court city and main chamber of accounts of Brittany in the late 14th and in the 15th. Its cathedral is (re)built between the 13th and 16th. Seat of Brittany’s Parliament (15th to mid 16th). 5K inhabitants in the late Middle Ages.


Raw material : Wheat/grains, fish, meat and textiles were quite important for the local economy.
Suggestion : Use Wheat as raw material, although Fish or Livestock would be good too.

An extract of one of the sources I've found:

Capture d'écran 2024-06-24 044616.png

It explains that since the 14th, salt from Guérand, wine from the river Loire, Poitou and Charente (the author means the two departments of Charente-maritime and Charente, which are the historical provinces of Aunis, Saintonge, Angoumois), wool and iron from Spain, fish from the ocean... and exports cereals, meat and textiles.
Sources : http://www.infobretagne.com/vannes.htm

https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1921_num_35_1_1545?q=histoire vannes
The file where I found the economical text above: https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0399-0826_1975_num_82_3_2778

About the near town of Auray → https://www.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/5f466964f167b9.87004321/2000_01.pdf

-----

Redon : Seat of an abbey since the Middle Ages, an important religious center. The town is fortified with walls in the 14th-15th. Seat of high jurisdiction (since when?). Trade and port town. Salt store (certainly for the nearby salt marshes in Guérande, and the area of Brière).

Raw material: Wine (cultivated since the 9th century). Could also be wheat, meat (livestock), or spices. Horses may have been set by Tinto Team locally because of the existence of a sturd farm, owned by the abbey (but nothing confirms it was a big part in the economy). Spices would be… spicy if added there!

Sources : http://www.infobretagne.com/redon.htm

https://journals.openedition.org/abpo/3516

https://www.cairn.info/revue-histoire-urbaine-2017-1-page-133.htm







Province : Pays Malouin



Saint-Malo : Seat of its own bishopric since 1145. The town, placed on an easy to defend, strategic rock, is fortified by a wall in the 12th. Its cathedral has been built between the 12th and the 18th century. The place is often coveted by the dukes of Brittany since the early 13th. Owned by the French Crown in the late 14th, becoming a free port, attached to the duchy of Brittany in 1424. Becomes one of the most important ports of Brittany in the 15th, serving as a naval base for many maritime expeditions, and center of explorers, shipowners, privateers. Briefly the home of an independant republic. Constantly strenghened throughout its history (notably under Vauban, 17th). One of the main slave ports in France.

Raw materials: Fish (cod fishing around the Newfoundland, later after the start date). Could also be linen and hemp used for making textiles, in the area going from Saint-Malo, down to Dinan.


Sources : https://ler.letras.up.pt/uploads/ficheiros/12306.pdf

http://www.infobretagne.com/saint-malo.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/saint-malo-histoire.htm

http://www.juste-a-temps.fr/saintmalo/histoire/index.php?p=_cite.htm

-----

Dol: Seat of monastery and a bishopric, important religious activity. Strategic location leading from Brittany to Normandy. The town is fortified with walls in the late 13th. Grain market in the 12th century and later. Its cathedral is built between the 13th and 15th centuries. Important cultural center.

Raw material: Wheat. Could also be wine as it was cultivated in the area since the 12th.

As the following picture/resume shows it, Dol is,in the Middle Ages a large pilgrimage center on Brittany's Tour, a step on the road to Mont Saint-Michel, and both a grain and livestock market.

Capture d'écran 2024-06-24 052746.png


Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63d42264bf2656.72306572/2001_01.pdf

http://www.infobretagne.com/dol-de-bretagne.htm

https://www.persee.fr/doc/rhef_0300-9505_1992_num_78_201_1075

https://dol-de-bretagne.fr/13/une-histoire-de-plus-de-1500-ans

https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1905_num_21_4_1232

-----

Ploërmel : The town is fortified in the 12th century. A notable religious and important trade center. The Estates of Brittany took place sixteen times there, essentially from the 15th to the 17th. Seat of a sénéchaussée since the 13th. Had an hospital since the Middle Ages. Was several times used as residency for the dukes of Brittany. Later, center of a tribunal, of prisons.

Raw material: Couldn’t find much sources, but somewhere, I read the dukes liked hunting in the area, which may have been one of the reasons why Ploërmel was a location they often came to. The sénéchaussée was one of the largest of Brittany. So Wild Game could make sense.
Suggestion: make Ploërmel a location of woods type for vegetation, with Wild Game for raw material.

Sources : http://www.infobretagne.com/ploermel.htm







Province : Rennais



Rennes : Seat of a Bishopric. One of the main cities of Brittany. Strategic and fortified location in the Middle Ages, well defended by walls and by a castle (created in the 13th, dismantled in 1409). Large religious and economic center, with a cathedral built in the 12th, rebuilt between the 16th and the 18th. A hospital is built in 1340. The city is considerably extended through the 15th, with new fortifications. Seat of a sénéchaussée in 1337 and before, up until the Revolution. Seat of the Parliament of Brittany (which is built all along the 17th century). Around 12K inhabitants in the 15th century.

Raw material : Could be Wheat, Fiber crops (cloth industry develops in the 15th), Livestock (due to leather making) or Wine. But it seems Wheat/grains and leather industry were the most prominent part of the economy.

Suggestion : Set Wheat as the local raw material.

I've found this picture depicting the city of Rennes and its extensions in the 15th:

carte-de-rennes-intra-muros-au-15eme-siecle.jpg

Or this one, if you prefer something more historical (the map is a copy of another one apparently made around the year 1665):
Nouvelle-Ville-Rennes-928x1024 (1665).jpg


Sources : https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1968_num_75_2_2468
https://books.openedition.org/pur/122463?lang=fr
https://books.openedition.org/pur/127335?lang=fr
https://multimedia.inrap.fr/atlas/R...ications-medievales-et-les-Portes-Mordelaises
https://multimedia.inrap.fr/atlas/Rennes/syntheses/periodes-chronologiques/p-21136-Le-Moyen-Age.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/rennes.htm

-----

Fougères : Strategic town, on a crossroads, on the frontier of the duchy. Protected by a castle, built in the 12th century, and by walls. Quite an important religious center. Heavy fortifications built in the 16th. Seat of a tribunal (late Middle Ages? Early Renaissance ?), seat of a high jurisdiction. Stays catholic during the religious wars.

Raw material : Could be Fiber crops since the economy was mainly based on cloth making in the 15th and 16th. There was also a leather industry, as well as dyes industry.

Suggestion: Set Fiber crops as raw material.

Sources : https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1912_num_28_3_4176_t1_0423_0000_1
https://excerpts.numilog.com/books/9782307002734.pdf

http://www.infobretagne.com/fougeres.htm

https://www.bretagneweb.com/histoires/fougeres-histoire.htm

-----

Vitré : Strategic town, on a crossroads, also on the frontier of Brittany. Protected by a castle built in the 11th, rebuilt from the 13th to the 15th (maybe one of the strongest castles in the area), along with walls. Seat of the oldest and the widest baronny of Britanny. Seat of high jurisdiction. Unlike Fougères, which stayed catholic, Vitré was a stronghold for the Huguenots.

Raw material: Fiber crops since the town prospered due to hemp and linen based textiles. Vitré is also famous for its black shale (but it didn’t have the same weigh in local economy).

Sources : https://journals.openedition.org/abpo/2337

http://www.infobretagne.com/vitre.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/vitre-ville-seigneurs.htm




Province : Nantais



Guérande: Important economic town, protected by a wall in the 14th/15th. Trade and economy based on salt and wine. Notable religious center too. Important location for maritime trade in the Middle Ages, less in the 17th and later.

Raw material : the marsh area called Brière is known for its salt marshes. So, salt, indeed.

Sources : http://www.infobretagne.com/guerande.htm

http://marikavel.org/bretagne/guerande/histoire-ogee.htm

https://books.openedition.org/pur/17237?lang=fr

-----

Nantes : Seat of a bishopric. Was already one of the main cities of Brittany in the Middle Ages, with powerful economy, trade, large population. Protected by strong walls. Its cathedral was built from the 15th to the 19th century. Seat of the first breton university in 1460. Famous for its castle, the dukes’ residency. Its first printing house is created in 1493. One of the main ports on the Atlantic coast, major slave port in the early modern era.

Raw material: Wine making was concentrated around the areas of Ancenis (east of Nantes) and Vertou (across the Loire). The suggestion of location for Nantes (with the shape I made) didn’t really include wine. Cereals/Wheat seems more appropriate, despite much of this ressource came from other regions through the river Loire, and from the area of Vannes.
Suggestion: set Wheat for raw material.

Sources : https://shs.hal.science/halshs-00441755/file/Le_mauvais_vignoble_nantais.pdf

https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/5f46bc8b403654.28801373/2014_02.pdf

-----

Châteaubriant : Town on a strategic location (March of Brittany), with a castle in the 14th. Wide baronny. Industrious town.


Raw material: the town and the area of La Mée produced cereals, meat/livestock and wild game related goods, linen, hemp (for textiles) and wood. The countryside has several forests around it, so it could be interesting to reflect that and set Lumber as the local ressource. As for Iron, it seems it was present in the forest of Juigné and maybe in other places. For what I understand, Lumber was more prominent.
Suggestion: Set Châteaubriant as Woods for vegetation type, Lumber as raw material. Or else, let Iron there.

Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63d07fb1174215.10713712/1989_02.pdf
http://www.infobretagne.com/chateaubriant.htm

http://marikavel.org/bretagne/chateaubriant/histoire.htm

-----

Ancenis : Another strategic town (on the road between Nantes and Angers). Seat of a large baronny, protected by a castle.

Raw material : Iron was exploited in the north of the location, around Riaillé. Wood was also notable in the area. Wine was also exploited.
Suggestion : Set Iron as local raw ressource (or eventually set Iron for Châteaubriant, Lumber for Ancenis).

Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63cfbb5aa03407.21331239/1999_02.pdf
https://www.arra-ancenis.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Revue2002-17-BBoquien2-p.78-88.pdf

http://www.infobretagne.com/ancenis.htm

-----

Machecoul : Fortified town, seat of a baronny (though initially, it was Rezé, then Pornic, in the 14th), on a strategic location. Seat of an abbey.

Raw material : Can be Sturdy grains (rye and oats), but also Livestock. Since the area is watery, with several marshes (and often flooded lands throughout history), Livestock would do a great job at representing the local economy.
Suggestion : Set the location as Marshes for vegetation, and Livestock for raw material.


Sources : https://www.cairn.info/revue-histoire-et-societes-rurales-2016-1-page-69.htm
http://www.infobretagne.com/machecoul.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/histoire-machecoul.htm

-----

Clisson : Castle built in the 13th. Its owners were an important noble family with many holdings in others parts of France.

Raw material: The area is known as Vignoble (Nantais) which means Vineyard, so it would be rather logical to set wine as the local raw material.
Suggestion: Clisson is probably the location for which I found the least informations. Two solutions here: set Clisson as its own location, albeit sources are scarce. It could also reflect the seat of Clisson’ family. Or else, maybe merge Machecoul and Clisson, centered on the former, with Wine for raw material. Personally I’d prefer the first solution, but it depends on how many locations there may be for the whole region of France, and the area of Brittany.

Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/5f46467554c444.80958758/2004_02.pdf
https://www.persee.fr/doc/bulmo_0007-473x_2014_num_172_2_10354

http://www.infobretagne.com/clisson.htm

A map showing nowadays appellations (official certificates) for wines made in Pays Nantais, which helps at understanding its producing areas:
Carte-des-rgions-viticoles-du-Pays-nantais-et-de-Vendee-C-M.CRIVELLARO.jpg



----------------------------------------------


Phew! That was a lot. I also want to share some pictures found in some of these sources, which are quite interesting. Most of them are maps, some others are extracts from long texts.

Finally, I can post the different layers of the map I'm working on, hoping the various suggestions made are plausible and will be useful for Tinto devs.

Let's begin with Topography: nothing changed from a previous post I made. I'll repost it in a thumbnail if ever you want to see it again, but nothing new.

Brittany_topography.png

Next, vegetation: I made some changes, adapting the wood-covered areas to something more connected to raw materials and, I hope, more realistic.

Brittany_vegetationfixed.png


Thinking about marshes again, I may want to convert to Paradox true faith... not that I consider marshes more relevant for topography than for vegetation, but instead to better represent some areas. As a mapmaker having worked on the provinces of Aunis and Saintonge, which I know well now, I fear how actually Aunis will be represented ingame: should it depict marshes, especially for the famous Marais Poitevin? Sure. But as Aunis is historically known for its fertile plains (producing lots of grains and wine, along with salt, which were the 3 top-tier raw materials locally), should it also depict farmlands? Indeed! So... the best compromise here would be to represent both for Aunis. Especially since terrain types, vegetation, have an influence on population density ingame (for the little we know at the moment).

Sorry, just some mapmakers thoughts! :D

Next, the correction I made for cultures:

Brittany_culturesfixed.png


The locations map, corrected too, as I've been suggested for instance to represent Châteaulin instead of Crozon, or the necessity of depicting Lamballe, and not Paimpol:

Brittany_locationsfixed.png


The provinces also are more historical this way, but it can always be simplified if considered necessary. There could also be a province of Porhoët, but that would be reaching madness, as several areas are often historically part of different, wider geographic zones.

And finally, the resume made for raw materials (aka trade goods!):

Brittany_rawmaterials.png


Pretty diversified, isn't it?



That will be all for today! Next time will be on my corrections for Normandy' suggestions (and local suggestions for raw materials). Don't expect it before a week... or two! It varies on the progress I make. By then, France feedback will be posted by @Pavía or one of his fellow workers. I'm eager to discover it! As well as to read your thoughts, reactions, suggestions. Stay tuned gentlemen, and let's keep helping Tinto Team as much as we can, so that Europa Uni... I mean, Project Caesar (oof, I almost lost 2 points of diplo rep :oops:) will become the best Grand Strategy Game! Now, where did I put this bottle from Clisson?


See you guys. :D
 
  • 6Like
  • 4Love
  • 4
Reactions:
Metroidkirby said:
Well, yes.

Congratulations, you discovered the Achilles heel of my big evil plan to remove Granville from the very top secret Project Caesar.

On a more serious note, why didn't you add a 'Mont-Saint-Michel/Pontorson' location? If it would have been out of place in EUIV, it's relevant for the Hundred years war. After seeing your map it feels like an easy choice you didn't make. I think you put a lot of thoughs into this so I'm kinda curious.
Click to expand...
Maybe simply because I need to focus my research on Normandy this time. :) You're right, Avranchin province could be split into three locations, and Pontorson could do the trick. Although the situation of Mont Saint-Michel is a bit more complex in that time (on a religious point of view, for instance, it belonged to the deanery of Genêts, to the other side of the bay. Don't ask me how I know it! Ok ok, put down that gun. I've planned a remake of my old map of Normandy, so I had to discover how Cotentin and Avranchin were divided. Alas, I fear I won't be able to work on this too soon!

For the little showcase (it's really, early alpha :D)

Capture d'écran 2024-06-25 211852.png

You'll note that the red circled area is today part of La Manche department, but is historically part of Bessin area (river Vire setting the frontier with Cotentin).
I can thank the website called Wikimanche which helps grabbing informations about these old deaneries, sergeantries and elections. You can always take a look here!

Wikimanche

En 2023, Wikimanche a accueilli 846 660 visiteurs (+ 8,41 %), qui ont lu 2 142 456 pages (+ 12,64 %). C'est la meilleure audience de Wikimanche depuis sa création en mai 2007.
www.wikimanche.fr www.wikimanche.fr

I'll consider Pontorson when working on Normandy, then!
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Pavía said:
Normandy, Anjou, and Maine are appanages in a personal union under Prince Jean, heir of France, that's correct. We wanted to portray the granularity of his government over these territories until he became king.
Click to expand...

I want to stress that I am not a historian, and you might have better knowledge of the situation than I do, or are choosing to make some alterations so keep France split up for gameplay purposes, which is also fine.

My understanding is that Maine was not under Jean. While Anjou and Normandy were indeed ruled by Jean II, Maine remained in the royal domain until 1339.

More importantly, in some quotes, Pavia has expressed that as a ruler ascends to the throne, the appanages are subsumed into the France crown lands. This would be the case for Normandy, Anjou and Maine for example, when after Jean dies, they would return to the royal domain. This is problematic, as although these were subsumed into the crown lands, they were later given back out to second sons and the like. To be clear, they were indeed integrated into the royal domain, but rulers chose to give them back out again.

- Anjou and Maine was given to the second son of Jean II, Louis I
- Normandy was given to the first son, Charles I, who himself gives it to his youngest son a year after he ascends to the throne

Counts and dukes of Anjou - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Counts and dukes of Maine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_ducs_de_Normandie (some of those pages are in french, but just scroll down to the list of dukes)

There should be a mechanic that incentives players to "de-centralise" to give out appanages sometimes. This would be realistic and would make the path towards centralisation more interesting and not just a constant gradual increase of centralisation. The independence of these appanages should be scale down as time passes (eg duchy of Alencon was given out in the XVI century, but at that point is was not a political entity, just a cash cow for someones heir).
 

Attachments

  • 1719416301603.png
    1719416301603.png
    1,6 MB · Views: 0
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Pavía said:
As I've mentioned in a couple of other threads, we're currently working on the feedback of Tinto Maps for the French region. The location density will be similar to Iberia, and less than the Low Countries and Italy. A sneak peek of this is the former location of Paris, which was a bit big (as it was portraying Île-de-France), and now is a bit more subdivided:

View attachment 1150888

PS: It's WAD that Paris is now isolated from the rest of the world...

:p
Click to expand...
Huge love seeing these key cities and their surrounding areas be represented as the city + surrounding areas.
 
Calliyop said:
Hi everyone! Hope that you're all ok and the week has started well for you?

The Cardinal of the Holy Map has returned with a brand new map, as to give, again, helpful suggestions.
This time I'm bringing raw materials on the table! Yeah. That's the good news! The sad one is, I could have worked only on the area of Brittany.
As you may see it by reading this post, I've put a lot of time doing research and trying to support locations candidates and other informations with the most possible sources, without going too mad (or is it too late? :rolleyes:).

So, let me present the works I've made for this:
Suggestions for Brittany

Province : Léon

Saint-Renan / Brest : warport in the Middle Ages, trading port, remarkable castle, but not a town yet. Nearby, to the west, Saint-Renan is a trading town, more inhabited, considered the center of the area. It becomes the capital of a sénéchaussée (equivalent to a bailiwick) by 1340, with civil, military and judicial authority. The town develops well until Brest becomes the main location. That one earns the status of town by 1593 ; becomes a true military (and trading) port in 1631 with the creation of its arsenal; Brest is heavily fortified by Vauban in 1683.

Raw material : Fish. Would assurely produce naval supplies later (though not a raw material).
Suggestion: Best to set Saint-Renan as capital location, until the mid-1600’s, then Brest. Or call it Saint-Renan-Brest / Saint-Renan & Brest.

Sources :https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63cfa6edb1fba3.00223062/2015_12.pdf
https://www.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63d03052041a79.60630219/1992_04.pdf
https://www.expotem.fr/2016/10/histoire-de-saint-renan/

-----
Landerneau : One of the most important towns of Léon (capital of the county/viscounty). Trade location more important than Brest in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, due to its port and to its obligatory place of passage for land traffic. Lesser castle compared to Brest’s one, although Landerneau had not only its own castle, but also two other ones, protecting it on its sides, those of Joyeuse-Garde and La Roche-Maurice. Famous for its linen textiles (crées), certainly a fertile area, but also famous for the quality of its cut stone (used for many of its buildings during the 17th century) : can be quoted the stone of Logonna and the stone of Kersanton. The town goes on prospering in Project Caesar’s timeframe.

Raw material: Linen would fit in, but stone is more interesting, as linen can be used in the next location.
Suggestion : Set Landerneau with farmlands vegetation type (Léon is known for its fertile lands), but with Stone as raw material, and not fiber crops for linen.

Sources : https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k3340145b/f11.item.texteImage

Or here, for more readability : http://excerpts.numilog.com/books/9782402536943.pdf

(the issue is only the first 20 pages are freely readable)
https://laforest.bzh/histoire/chateau-de-joyeuse-garde/

-----

Saint-Pol-de-Léon : Seat of the bishopric of Léon, important historical town of the area. The city was prosperous in the 1200’s. Its cathedral has been built between years 1230 and 1539 (gothic, norman-inspired style). Generally, in the 1400’s and 1500’s, towns of Léon enrich themselves with such buildings of fine architecture, demonstrating their wealth, though the city was partly burnt during the War of the Breton Succession. Its trade port reaches its peak in the 1400’s. The area is famous for the creation of linen textiles, the famous crées.

Raw material : A common mistake is considering Saint-Pol is famous for its legumes : actually, it is, but only for our modern era (20th and 21th centuries). In Project Caesar, the culture of linen, used for fine linen textiles, as historically, would be more adequate.
Suggestion : set raw material as fiber crops ; to help reflecting Léon fertile lands, set vegetation type to farmlands.

Sources : Not as excellent as the previous ones, but still, better to quote them :
https://www.terresceltes.net/bretagne/saint-pol-de-leon-capitale-historique-leon
http://www.infobretagne.com/saint-pol-de-leon.htm
http://www.infobretagne.com/saint-pol-de-leon-cathedrale.htm
http://roscoff-quotidien.chez-alice.fr/minihy-histoire.pdf

A picture showing the textiles, cloth making areas of Brittany:

View attachment 1153464

This other one displaying the castles network in Léon, in the Middle Ages:
View attachment 1153465





Province : Trégor


Morlaix : The location was a town of strategic, military importance in the Middle Ages, fortified by a castle. Developped its maritime trade since the 13th century. It already produced linen textiles in that time, and also relied on fishery. After the English occupation in Brittany, during the 14th, Morlaix prospered throughout the 15th. By the end of the century, it counted 4 to 5K inhabitants; however it became vulnerable, due to both its prosperity and military dismantling (after the French-Breton War). Was a tax center (because of growing trade). Burnt and pillaged in 1522, took time to recover. Becomes again an important military place in the end of the 16th, for a short time (the cost is too high to maintain defences, falling in ruins in the 17th). The town still prospers as the first trading port of local linen textiles, essentially coming from nearby Léon. Morlaix becomes the second main corsair town of Brittany in the 18th (the first one being Saint-Malo).

Raw material: Could be fish, linen, hemp, cereals. So either Fish or Fiber crops?
Suggestion: Morlaix set with a castle; fiber crops for raw materials, but fish is relevant too (equal importance for both since the 13th or 14th century).

Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63cfc74366a6f9.22366619/2002_01.pdf
https://www.persee.fr/doc/bec_0373-6237_1985_num_143_1_450376_t1_0209_0000₂

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5789163j/f48.item.r=Carantec.langFR
http://www.le-chiffon-rouge-morlaix...la-naissance-de-la-ville-a-la-revolution.html
http://www.infobretagne.com/morlaix-temps-anciens.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/morlaix-historique.htm
http://www.infobretagne.com/morlaix-armateurs-corsaires.htm
http://www.le-chiffon-rouge-morlaix...la-naissance-de-la-ville-a-la-revolution.html

-----

Tréguier : Seat of the Bishopric of Trégor. Port city of low trading / fishing importance. Essentially a spiritual, cultural and artistic center. Earns the status of town in 1412. The cathedral, made in gothic, breton-style, is erected between 1339 and 1435 (achieved in 1479). There was a ducal sénéchal (bailiff) in Trégor province, since 1219, based in Tréguier between 1260 and 1467. It becomes the seat of the royal sénéchaussée of Lannion, up until 1576 (transfered then to Lannion, but still quoting Tréguier honorarily). A printing house is created in 1485 (one of the very first in Brittany → the Catholicon, the first Breton-French-Latin dictionary, is printed there in 1499). Despite its port, it saw a limited economic growth. The town is pillaged several times during the era covered by Project Caesar (Hundred Years War, French Wars of Religion). The town loses its bishopric title with the French Revolution, in 1789.

Raw material: Like in Morlaix, Trégor is known for its legumes for several decades nowadays. Though I have not seen any noticeable raw material in the sources, legumes could be applied on the location, because of its lack of economic development (couldn’t be livestock as this was more lucrative).
Suggestion: Legumes as raw material, since Fish production, or Livestock here wasn’t much important in the Middle Ages and later.

Sources : http://www.infobretagne.com/treguier.htm
https://ville-treguier.fr/decouvrir-treguier/histoire.html
https://bibliotheque.idbe.bzh/data/cle_73/Histoire_Municipale_de_TrAguier_.pdf

And probably the most interesting souce, demography : https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0399-0826_1976_num_83_3_2823

Of which I've taken this very, interesting screenshot:

View attachment 1153466





Province : Cornouaille

Châteaulin (instead of Crozon) : Strategic, defensive location, in the Middle Ages. Set in a crossroads. Initially a burgh, protected by a castle, merged in the 13th (or 15th century?) with neighbouring locations to become known as Châteaulin. Known for its salmon fisheries (ensuring local prosperity up until the early 19th) and slate quarries. The first bridge dates back from the 13th century. The castle is burnt in 1373, never rebuilt, instead used as a local quarry. The location is the center of a sénéchaussée in 1552, with a strong judicial activity.
The area is still a defensive location, on Crozon’ peninsula (coastal defenses are built under the royal architect Vauban in the 17th), to help defending the port of Brest → Crozon is quite populated, probably since the Middle Ages, but is not a land crossroads due to its geography.


Raw material: Fish, or stone, because of the local slate quarries (as important as the salmon fisheries, apparently after the Middle Ages).
Suggestion: Crozon, to the west, can be used as the port location, while Châteaulin can be set as the main location.

Sources : https://www.chateaulin.fr/histoire/du-5e-au-14e-siecle

https://www.chateaulin.fr/histoire/du-15e-au-17e-siecle
https://www.chateaulin.fr/histoire/18e-siecle
http://www.infobretagne.com/chateaulin.htm
https://www.bretagne-decouverte.com/chateaulin-ville-finistere/

-----

Carhaix : Strategic, defensive location, with a castle in the Middle Ages (built in the 13th?). Is the capital of the viscounty of Poher. Quite an important religious development in the same era. In the 15th, it loses its strategic relevance to become a market town. A hospital is built in 1478. Becomes a royal seat / sénéchaussée, for administration and justice, in 1565 (or before, in the same century) until the French Revolution. Known for its livestock, horses and game, in the 17th and 18th century (livestock, and perhaps horses, were certainly the town’s base economy for several centuries, maybe up to the Middle Ages). Textile and leather activity in the 17th an 18th (maybe before too?).

Raw material : Livestock, or even horses

Sources : Jean-Baptiste Ogée → http://marikavel.org/bretagne/carhaix/ogee.htm
https://hal.science/file/index/doci...enese_de_la_ville_de_Carhaix_au_Moyen_Age.pdf

https://books.openedition.org/editionscnrs/47027?lang=fr

http://www.infobretagne.com/carhaix-plouguer.htm

https://www.ville-carhaix.bzh/accueil_carhaix/decouvrir_carhaix/histoire
https://www.ville-carhaix.bzh/accueil_carhaix/decouvrir_carhaix/patrimoine

-----

Quimper : Capital of the province of (continental) Cornouaille, seat of a bishopric, then a political and religious center. Closed by walls in the middle of the 13th. Its cathedral has been built between the 13th and the 15th centuries. Four hospital establishments are present in the 15th. The towns counts 4.5K inhabitants in the middle of the 15th, and 9K inhabitants by the end of the 17th. Famous for its faience made since the early 18th century. Fish production, as well as port activities, become prominent only in the 19th and later.

Raw material: From the 14th to the 16th, Quimper’s economy relies on breeding, agriculture, fishing, but also on sheets, wool, hemp, linen, silk, parchments, hides. The religious/cultural center also attracts a few artists.
Suggestion: Set Livestock as the local raw material; to allow for some flexibility, set Horses to Carhaix.

Sources: https://www.quimper.bzh/382-le-bas-moyen-age-entre-pouvoir-episcopal-et-pouvoir-ducal.htm
https://www.quimper.bzh/384-la-renaissance-et-les-temps-modernes-quimper-sous-la-contre-reforme.htm
https://rbkistorbzh.wordpress.com/2021/05/31/les-fortifications-de-quimper-au-moyen-age/
https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1947_num_54_1_1850

http://www.infobretagne.com/quimper.htm
https://www.quimper.bzh/373-histoire-de-la-ville.htm
https://www.terresceltes.net/bretagne/quimper-capitale-de-cornouaille
https://musee-breton.finistere.fr/fr/le-palais-episcopal

-----

Quimperlé : Is an abbey town (of which the abbey is wealthy). May have had a castle, had walls in the Middle Ages. Relatively important port in the Middle Ages, perhaps also later. Seat of a ducal sénéchaussée since the 15th, becoming a royal sénéchaussée in 1665. The walls were demolished around the year 1680. 3K inhabitants in 1780.

Raw material: Fish. Could also be cereals since they were exported from the port.
Suggestions: add a town wall (also: local defenses can help reflecting the fortified town of Concarneau, to the west). Set Fish, or either cereals (sturdy grains? Wheat?) as raw material, since there are already three fish producing locations in western Brittany.

Sources : https://books.openedition.org/pup/3850?lang=fr
http://www.infobretagne.com/quimperle.htm

https://hal.univ-brest.fr/hal-01560276/document

http://marikavel.org/bretagne/quimperle/accueil.htm

Not the best transition ever made (ah-ha!), but I found this map for an ecclesiastical point of view!
View attachment 1153467





Province : Penthièvre


After several research, I abandoned the idea of making Paimpol a location, which wasn’t much important until the later 18th. I made research about Châtelaudren too, capital of Goëlo, but it wasn’t as important as the nearby city of Saint-Brieuc.


Saint-Brieuc: Seat of a bishopric, important religious and cultural center. The town had no walls. A tower/castle (La Tour de Cesson), built in the 14th, was meant to protect it, but was destroyed in the late 16th. Its cathedral, built between the 13th and the 15th century, had been quickly fortified in the 14th. Saint-Brieuc and its western surroundings were usually considered as western Penthièvre (with Goëlo), while Lamballe was the seat of the eastern part. Was the center of a ducal, later royal sénéchaussée, at least since the early 15th.


Raw material : The lands are not fertile, and the economy seems to be focused on maritime trade (sale of textiles, sheets) and fishing (notably with cod fishing near Newfoundland).

Suggestion : Set Fish as raw material. Divide alpha vanilla Saint-Brieuc location into Saint-Brieuc (west) and Lamballe (east).


Sources : https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Histoire_de_la_ville_de_Saint-Brieuc/2

https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Histoire_de_la_ville_de_Saint-Brieuc/3

https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Histoire_de_la_ville_de_Saint-Brieuc/4

https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Histoire_de_la_ville_de_Saint-Brieuc/5

https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Histoire_de_la_ville_de_Saint-Brieuc/6
Page 29 and more : https://bibliotheque.idbe.bzh/data/cle_/Histoire_de_Saint_Brieuc_.pdf
https://bibliotheque.idbe.bzh/data/cle_110/Saint_Brieuc_Histoire_condensAe_.pdf

http://www.infobretagne.com/saint-brieuc.htm

-----

Lamballe : Initially a monastery. Strategic location, strongly defended by a castle (11th century to 1420), and the town is protected by walls. Was the capital of the duchy of Penthièvre (1034-1420). Center of a large jurisdiction. Large agricultural center too (grains and livestock). Important burgh in the Middle Ages, known to be a city of merchants and artisans (textile industry since the 13th). Seat of a sénéchaussée throughout all the 13th century, and later. Lamballe’s prosperity is halted with the siege (and capture) led by the ducal forces in 1420, seeing both its castle and its walls greatly dismantled. The town and its surroundings are devastated but the local economy stays dynamic. Lamballe is alternatively governed by the dukes of Brittany and by its traditional lords in the course of the 15th. Probably 2K inhabitants by the end of the century. Quite important religious activities too, despite not being the seat of a bishopric (still, it can be considered a religious center). The defenses are modereately rebuilt in the 15th and 16th, but definitely razed in 1626. The town stays quiye an important economic center after that.

Raw materials : Fiber crops (linen/hemp were used there for textiles, as well as wool). Otherwise, livestock (lots of tanneries and parchment making), or else, wheat. Both Fiber crops and Livestock would really fit in.

Suggestions : Make Lamballe a location, with a castle, town walls, set with Livestock as raw material (or Fiber crops if there are too many Livestock locations nearby).


Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63d236f6ddf000.24226078/2003_03.pdf



https://bibliotheque.idbe.bzh/data/cle_174/lamballe__dix__siacles__d__histoire.pdf

http://www.infobretagne.com/lamballe.htm

https://www.lamballe-armor.bzh/accueil-lamballe-armor/decouvrir/histoire/6000-ans-dhistoire

-----

Rohan / Loudéac : Rohan is the initial capital of the viscounts / counts of Porhoët / Rohan, the center of their possessions. Was a burgh protected by a castle, but it seems the local lords prefered surrounding locations (essentially Pontivy and Josselin), which were better defended. The castle of Rohan we know far more is the one built in Pontivy, so we can wonder what happened to the initial castle in the burgh of Rohan, or if it really was a castle (could be town walls?).

Loudéac is a town in the Middle Ages, great trade center in the heart of Brittany. Reknown for its linen textiles in the 16th and 17th centuries. Its forest contained hundreds of horses which enriched the lords of Rohan. The area, since at least the mid 15th (very probably even before) was filled with iron mines and forges.

Raw material: either Horses, or Iron (the latter would be better to represent goods diversity, as it probably constituted the main local economy). Could be lead, nonetheless not for start date in 1337, rather in the 17th century.
Suggestion: Give the location name: Loudéac, with Woods type of vegetation, and Iron as raw material.

Sources : https://journals.openedition.org/abpo/4947
http://marikavel.org/bretagne/loudeac/accueil.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/rohan.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/loudeac.htm

https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1938_num_45_1_1776

What I read about lead mines → http://www.infobretagne.com/mines-plomb-bretagne.htm

https://journals.openedition.org/abpo/4947

https://archive.wikiwix.com/cache/index2.php?url=http://www.infobretagne.com/rohan-chef-lieu-vicomte.htm#federation=archive.wikiwix.com&tab=url

-----

Josselin : A castle is built there in the early 11th, giving birth to a burgh (seems it had the status of town). The castle and the town are razed in the years 1168-1171 by king Henry II, but get rebuilt in the following years (late 12th). Three fortified gates as well as a fortified enclosure are erected (the gates are only destroyed in 1780). Notable religious center. Josselin becomes part of the viscounty of Rohan in 1407. Its current castle is built in the late 14th, up to the early 16th. From the 15th to the 18th, the town and its area prosper due to the making of its linen sheets, taneries and fairs. The castle is partly dismantled in the early 17th, abandoned by the Rohan in the 18th.


Raw material : Fiber crops for linen, as it was used for textiles.

Suggestions : Could have a castle, but the famous one dates back to the late 14th.

Sources : https://journals.openedition.org/ccm/5426

http://www.infobretagne.com/josselin.htm

https://www.patrimoine-histoire.fr/P_Bretagne/Josselin/Josselin-Chateau.htm

https://www.terresceltes.net/bretagne/josselin

http://monumentshistoriques.free.fr/chateaux/josselin/josselin.html
Interesting source of the successive castles → http://www.infobretagne.com/josselin-chateau-rohan-histoire.htm

Another interesting source, for the whole center of Brittany : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63d1864e7eb047.72243529/2005_19.pdf







Province : Vannetais



Pontivy : Protected by a castle in the 12th century. Becomes quite an important crossroads. The town grows in the 13th and also gets protected by walls. In the early or mid-13th, Pontivy is the main political and military center of Rohan viscounty. Early 14th : is the seat of a high jurisdiction (probably a sénéchaussée). The current castle is built in the 15th and 16th. The town is prosperous due to textiles, leather and wheat trade.


Raw material : Wheat could show more materials diversity in the area, and reflect Pontivy central power of the Rohan with the need of stockpiling food. Could also be livestock for leather making, which seemed to be the main economic activity, with textiles making.
Suggestion : set either Livestock, or Wheat, as Raw material.


Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/5f46c8e109c4a0.57631791/2010_02.pdf

https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63d019cec2d350.19393700/2010_03.pdf
http://www.infobretagne.com/pontivy.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/rohan-chateau-origine-histoire.htm

https://www.jplours.fr/pontivy.htm

-----

Hennebont-Lorient : Hennebont is a strategic location in the Middle Ages. Town built in the mid-13th, fortified with walls. Quite a religious center, and quite an economic center due to its port. Suffers from several sieges in the 14th. Center of a sénéchaussée until the French Revolution. The economy is focused on maritime and agricultural trade until the 18th.

The city of Lorient is founded in the mid to late 17th, being chosen as the new center of French East India Company (instead of Le Havre). Becomes the seat of the French Royal Navy, being since then an arsenal, warport, trade port and warehouse for the Eastern trade. About 6K inhabitants around the year 1700, 14K in the year 1738.


Raw material : Wheat.

Suggestion: Add a location of Hennebont (which seems to be the main political location throughout the centuries, despite the great relevance of Lorient).

Sources about Hennebont: http://www.infobretagne.com/hennebont.htm

From page 27 → https://bibliotheque.idbe.bzh/data/cle_121/Hennebont_Ses_Origines_Son_Histoire_Religieuse_.pdf

https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63cfc73de07b11.92835806/1955_05.pdf

https://www.hennebont.net/elementor-102/

http://marikavel.com/bretagne/hennebont/histoire.htm
Sources about Lorient : https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1939_num_46_1_1788

http://www.infobretagne.com/lorient.htm

https://bibliotheque.idbe.bzh/data/cle_120/Histoire_de_Lorient_au_17e_siAcle_.pdf

-----

Vannes : One of the main historical cities of Brittany, seat of a Bishopric. Protected by large, strong walls. Seat of a sénéchaussée in the Middle Ages and later. Monetary workshop created in the mid 13th. Major trade center in the area. Court city and main chamber of accounts of Brittany in the late 14th and in the 15th. Its cathedral is (re)built between the 13th and 16th. Seat of Brittany’s Parliament (15th to mid 16th). 5K inhabitants in the late Middle Ages.


Raw material : Wheat/grains, fish, meat and textiles were quite important for the local economy.
Suggestion : Use Wheat as raw material, although Fish or Livestock would be good too.

An extract of one of the sources I've found:

View attachment 1153468
It explains that since the 14th, salt from Guérand, wine from the river Loire, Poitou and Charente (the author means the two departments of Charente-maritime and Charente, which are the historical provinces of Aunis, Saintonge, Angoumois), wool and iron from Spain, fish from the ocean... and exports cereals, meat and textiles.
Sources : http://www.infobretagne.com/vannes.htm

https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1921_num_35_1_1545?q=histoire vannes
The file where I found the economical text above: https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0399-0826_1975_num_82_3_2778

About the near town of Auray → https://www.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/5f466964f167b9.87004321/2000_01.pdf

-----

Redon : Seat of an abbey since the Middle Ages, an important religious center. The town is fortified with walls in the 14th-15th. Seat of high jurisdiction (since when?). Trade and port town. Salt store (certainly for the nearby salt marshes in Guérande, and the area of Brière).

Raw material: Wine (cultivated since the 9th century). Could also be wheat, meat (livestock), or spices. Horses may have been set by Tinto Team locally because of the existence of a sturd farm, owned by the abbey (but nothing confirms it was a big part in the economy). Spices would be… spicy if added there!

Sources : http://www.infobretagne.com/redon.htm

https://journals.openedition.org/abpo/3516

https://www.cairn.info/revue-histoire-urbaine-2017-1-page-133.htm







Province : Pays Malouin



Saint-Malo : Seat of its own bishopric since 1145. The town, placed on an easy to defend, strategic rock, is fortified by a wall in the 12th. Its cathedral has been built between the 12th and the 18th century. The place is often coveted by the dukes of Brittany since the early 13th. Owned by the French Crown in the late 14th, becoming a free port, attached to the duchy of Brittany in 1424. Becomes one of the most important ports of Brittany in the 15th, serving as a naval base for many maritime expeditions, and center of explorers, shipowners, privateers. Briefly the home of an independant republic. Constantly strenghened throughout its history (notably under Vauban, 17th). One of the main slave ports in France.

Raw materials: Fish (cod fishing around the Newfoundland, later after the start date). Could also be linen and hemp used for making textiles, in the area going from Saint-Malo, down to Dinan.


Sources : https://ler.letras.up.pt/uploads/ficheiros/12306.pdf

http://www.infobretagne.com/saint-malo.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/saint-malo-histoire.htm

http://www.juste-a-temps.fr/saintmalo/histoire/index.php?p=_cite.htm

-----

Dol: Seat of monastery and a bishopric, important religious activity. Strategic location leading from Brittany to Normandy. The town is fortified with walls in the late 13th. Grain market in the 12th century and later. Its cathedral is built between the 13th and 15th centuries. Important cultural center.

Raw material: Wheat. Could also be wine as it was cultivated in the area since the 12th.

As the following picture/resume shows it, Dol is,in the Middle Ages a large pilgrimage center on Brittany's Tour, a step on the road to Mont Saint-Michel, and both a grain and livestock market.

View attachment 1153470

Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63d42264bf2656.72306572/2001_01.pdf

http://www.infobretagne.com/dol-de-bretagne.htm

https://www.persee.fr/doc/rhef_0300-9505_1992_num_78_201_1075

https://dol-de-bretagne.fr/13/une-histoire-de-plus-de-1500-ans

https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1905_num_21_4_1232

-----

Ploërmel : The town is fortified in the 12th century. A notable religious and important trade center. The Estates of Brittany took place sixteen times there, essentially from the 15th to the 17th. Seat of a sénéchaussée since the 13th. Had an hospital since the Middle Ages. Was several times used as residency for the dukes of Brittany. Later, center of a tribunal, of prisons.

Raw material: Couldn’t find much sources, but somewhere, I read the dukes liked hunting in the area, which may have been one of the reasons why Ploërmel was a location they often came to. The sénéchaussée was one of the largest of Brittany. So Wild Game could make sense.
Suggestion: make Ploërmel a location of woods type for vegetation, with Wild Game for raw material.

Sources : http://www.infobretagne.com/ploermel.htm







Province : Rennais



Rennes : Seat of a Bishopric. One of the main cities of Brittany. Strategic and fortified location in the Middle Ages, well defended by walls and by a castle (created in the 13th, dismantled in 1409). Large religious and economic center, with a cathedral built in the 12th, rebuilt between the 16th and the 18th. A hospital is built in 1340. The city is considerably extended through the 15th, with new fortifications. Seat of a sénéchaussée in 1337 and before, up until the Revolution. Seat of the Parliament of Brittany (which is built all along the 17th century). Around 12K inhabitants in the 15th century.

Raw material : Could be Wheat, Fiber crops (cloth industry develops in the 15th), Livestock (due to leather making) or Wine. But it seems Wheat/grains and leather industry were the most prominent part of the economy.

Suggestion : Set Wheat as the local raw material.

I've found this picture depicting the city of Rennes and its extensions in the 15th:

View attachment 1153473
Or this one, if you prefer something more historical (the map is a copy of another one apparently made around the year 1665):
View attachment 1153474

Sources : https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1968_num_75_2_2468
https://books.openedition.org/pur/122463?lang=fr
https://books.openedition.org/pur/127335?lang=fr
https://multimedia.inrap.fr/atlas/R...ications-medievales-et-les-Portes-Mordelaises
https://multimedia.inrap.fr/atlas/Rennes/syntheses/periodes-chronologiques/p-21136-Le-Moyen-Age.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/rennes.htm

-----

Fougères : Strategic town, on a crossroads, on the frontier of the duchy. Protected by a castle, built in the 12th century, and by walls. Quite an important religious center. Heavy fortifications built in the 16th. Seat of a tribunal (late Middle Ages? Early Renaissance ?), seat of a high jurisdiction. Stays catholic during the religious wars.

Raw material : Could be Fiber crops since the economy was mainly based on cloth making in the 15th and 16th. There was also a leather industry, as well as dyes industry.

Suggestion: Set Fiber crops as raw material.

Sources : https://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1912_num_28_3_4176_t1_0423_0000_1
https://excerpts.numilog.com/books/9782307002734.pdf

http://www.infobretagne.com/fougeres.htm

https://www.bretagneweb.com/histoires/fougeres-histoire.htm

-----

Vitré : Strategic town, on a crossroads, also on the frontier of Brittany. Protected by a castle built in the 11th, rebuilt from the 13th to the 15th (maybe one of the strongest castles in the area), along with walls. Seat of the oldest and the widest baronny of Britanny. Seat of high jurisdiction. Unlike Fougères, which stayed catholic, Vitré was a stronghold for the Huguenots.

Raw material: Fiber crops since the town prospered due to hemp and linen based textiles. Vitré is also famous for its black shale (but it didn’t have the same weigh in local economy).

Sources : https://journals.openedition.org/abpo/2337

http://www.infobretagne.com/vitre.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/vitre-ville-seigneurs.htm




Province : Nantais



Guérande: Important economic town, protected by a wall in the 14th/15th. Trade and economy based on salt and wine. Notable religious center too. Important location for maritime trade in the Middle Ages, less in the 17th and later.

Raw material : the marsh area called Brière is known for its salt marshes. So, salt, indeed.

Sources : http://www.infobretagne.com/guerande.htm

http://marikavel.org/bretagne/guerande/histoire-ogee.htm

https://books.openedition.org/pur/17237?lang=fr

-----

Nantes : Seat of a bishopric. Was already one of the main cities of Brittany in the Middle Ages, with powerful economy, trade, large population. Protected by strong walls. Its cathedral was built from the 15th to the 19th century. Seat of the first breton university in 1460. Famous for its castle, the dukes’ residency. Its first printing house is created in 1493. One of the main ports on the Atlantic coast, major slave port in the early modern era.

Raw material: Wine making was concentrated around the areas of Ancenis (east of Nantes) and Vertou (across the Loire). The suggestion of location for Nantes (with the shape I made) didn’t really include wine. Cereals/Wheat seems more appropriate, despite much of this ressource came from other regions through the river Loire, and from the area of Vannes.
Suggestion: set Wheat for raw material.

Sources : https://shs.hal.science/halshs-00441755/file/Le_mauvais_vignoble_nantais.pdf

https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/5f46bc8b403654.28801373/2014_02.pdf

-----

Châteaubriant : Town on a strategic location (March of Brittany), with a castle in the 14th. Wide baronny. Industrious town.


Raw material: the town and the area of La Mée produced cereals, meat/livestock and wild game related goods, linen, hemp (for textiles) and wood. The countryside has several forests around it, so it could be interesting to reflect that and set Lumber as the local ressource. As for Iron, it seems it was present in the forest of Juigné and maybe in other places. For what I understand, Lumber was more prominent.
Suggestion: Set Châteaubriant as Woods for vegetation type, Lumber as raw material. Or else, let Iron there.

Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63d07fb1174215.10713712/1989_02.pdf
http://www.infobretagne.com/chateaubriant.htm

http://marikavel.org/bretagne/chateaubriant/histoire.htm

-----

Ancenis : Another strategic town (on the road between Nantes and Angers). Seat of a large baronny, protected by a castle.

Raw material : Iron was exploited in the north of the location, around Riaillé. Wood was also notable in the area. Wine was also exploited.
Suggestion : Set Iron as local raw ressource (or eventually set Iron for Châteaubriant, Lumber for Ancenis).

Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/63cfbb5aa03407.21331239/1999_02.pdf
https://www.arra-ancenis.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Revue2002-17-BBoquien2-p.78-88.pdf

http://www.infobretagne.com/ancenis.htm

-----

Machecoul : Fortified town, seat of a baronny (though initially, it was Rezé, then Pornic, in the 14th), on a strategic location. Seat of an abbey.

Raw material : Can be Sturdy grains (rye and oats), but also Livestock. Since the area is watery, with several marshes (and often flooded lands throughout history), Livestock would do a great job at representing the local economy.
Suggestion : Set the location as Marshes for vegetation, and Livestock for raw material.


Sources : https://www.cairn.info/revue-histoire-et-societes-rurales-2016-1-page-69.htm
http://www.infobretagne.com/machecoul.htm

http://www.infobretagne.com/histoire-machecoul.htm

-----

Clisson : Castle built in the 13th. Its owners were an important noble family with many holdings in others parts of France.

Raw material: The area is known as Vignoble (Nantais) which means Vineyard, so it would be rather logical to set wine as the local raw material.
Suggestion: Clisson is probably the location for which I found the least informations. Two solutions here: set Clisson as its own location, albeit sources are scarce. It could also reflect the seat of Clisson’ family. Or else, maybe merge Machecoul and Clisson, centered on the former, with Wine for raw material. Personally I’d prefer the first solution, but it depends on how many locations there may be for the whole region of France, and the area of Brittany.

Sources : https://m.shabretagne.com/scripts/files/5f46467554c444.80958758/2004_02.pdf
https://www.persee.fr/doc/bulmo_0007-473x_2014_num_172_2_10354

http://www.infobretagne.com/clisson.htm

A map showing nowadays appellations (official certificates) for wines made in Pays Nantais, which helps at understanding its producing areas:
View attachment 1153475


----------------------------------------------


Phew! That was a lot. I also want to share some pictures found in some of these sources, which are quite interesting. Most of them are maps, some others are extracts from long texts.

Finally, I can post the different layers of the map I'm working on, hoping the various suggestions made are plausible and will be useful for Tinto devs.

Let's begin with Topography: nothing changed from a previous post I made. I'll repost it in a thumbnail if ever you want to see it again, but nothing new.

View attachment 1153477

Next, vegetation: I made some changes, adapting the wood-covered areas to something more connected to raw materials and, I hope, more realistic.

View attachment 1153480

Thinking about marshes again, I may want to convert to Paradox true faith... not that I consider marshes more relevant for topography than for vegetation, but instead to better represent some areas. As a mapmaker having worked on the provinces of Aunis and Saintonge, which I know well now, I fear how actually Aunis will be represented ingame: should it depict marshes, especially for the famous Marais Poitevin? Sure. But as Aunis is historically known for its fertile plains (producing lots of grains and wine, along with salt, which were the 3 top-tier raw materials locally), should it also depict farmlands? Indeed! So... the best compromise here would be to represent both for Aunis. Especially since terrain types, vegetation, have an influence on population density ingame (for the little we know at the moment).

Sorry, just some mapmakers thoughts! :D

Next, the correction I made for cultures:

View attachment 1153495

The locations map, corrected too, as I've been suggested for instance to represent Châteaulin instead of Crozon, or the necessity of depicting Lamballe, and not Paimpol:

View attachment 1153497

The provinces also are more historical this way, but it can always be simplified if considered necessary. There could also be a province of Porhoët, but that would be reaching madness, as several areas are often historically part of different, wider geographic zones.

And finally, the resume made for raw materials (aka trade goods!):

View attachment 1153498

Pretty diversified, isn't it?



That will be all for today! Next time will be on my corrections for Normandy' suggestions (and local suggestions for raw materials). Don't expect it before a week... or two! It varies on the progress I make. By then, France feedback will be posted by @Pavía or one of his fellow workers. I'm eager to discover it! As well as to read your thoughts, reactions, suggestions. Stay tuned gentlemen, and let's keep helping Tinto Team as much as we can, so that Europa Uni... I mean, Project Caesar (oof, I almost lost 2 points of diplo rep :oops:) will become the best Grand Strategy Game! Now, where did I put this bottle from Clisson?


See you guys. :D
Click to expand...
god damn where is the "HOLY SHIT" reaction when you need it
 
Pavía said:
As I've mentioned in a couple of other threads, we're currently working on the feedback of Tinto Maps for the French region. The location density will be similar to Iberia, and less than the Low Countries and Italy. A sneak peek of this is the former location of Paris, which was a bit big (as it was portraying Île-de-France), and now is a bit more subdivided:

View attachment 1150888

PS: It's WAD that Paris is now isolated from the rest of the world...

:p
Click to expand...
Would Versailles be in Paris now or Corbeil?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Have we heard something about the France post-feedback thread yet? I thought it was supposed to be out by this week?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Hello, I just wanted to mention that the historical region that covers the poitevin's culture is called Poitou and as been existing from 400BC to 1955AD (at least).

Here is a picture to help visualisation :

1720816692607.png


I draw it on the map you shared :

1720816957246.png


The red part is the one I mentionned and the pink parts are the 2 disputed between Poitou, Anjou and Bretagne.

If you have any question, I am free to help

Thanks !
 
perry7484 said:
Briançon - A Peasant Republic, apparently with the rank of Principality, recognized 29 May 1343; possibly recognizing an earlier status quo. The inhabitants purchased the seigneural rights to the Briançonnais and essentially operated as federated collections of villages known as 'Escartons' (thus the 'Republica/Confederacion daus Escartons' or the 'Grand Escarton' in Occitan); sometimes called the 'Principality of the Briançonnais' ('Principat dau Briançonés'). Holds Briançon until the Revolution, and Pragelas/Pragelato into the 1700s.
Click to expand...


Republic of the Escartons! That would be such a neat addition!​


Per Wikipedia :
The Republic of the Escartons (Italian: Repubblica degli Escartons; French: République des Écartons) was a collection of mountain territories located around Mount Viso in the Briançonnais, with territory between Marseille and Turin. It consisted of a set of mountain territories in what is now the French department of Hautes-Alpes, the province of Turin and province of Cuneo. It was named after its capital. Escarton corresponds to an Occitan term for a small region, and in French 'écarter' means 'to divide', specifically 'to divide taxes into quarters'.

The republic enjoyed fiscal and political privileges from the French and although not very large, it had more than forty thousand inhabitants. Every year the leaders of various countries forming the Republic met in council to elect a consul as its leader.

Guigues VII of Viennois conceded the inhabitants of Briançon a charter of liberty in 1244, which was confirmed as a grand charter on 29 May 1343[1][2] by his successor Humbert II of Viennois at Beauvoir-en-Royans - he signed it with 18 representatives of the Alpine valleys. This gave birth to the Escartons republic, made up of five separate valleys – Briançonnais, Oulx, Casteldelfino, Val Chisone, and Queyras. The charter was later confirmed by letters patent from all the kings of France from Charles V of France to Louis XVI of France – after the Treaty of Utrecht, this continued until 4 August 1789 for the parts of the Republic which remained French territory.
Click to expand...

1720849596722.png
1720849676689.gif

1720849859457.png


It'd make sense to have it be a vassal under Viennois. If it became a vassal, then maybe there should be a rule for vassal integration that makes it more difficult for the integration of vassals with a different government type to the overlord. As the Escartons would've been a peasant republic.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Pavía said:
Abut the Dauphiné Valentinois, yes, there will be an event about that. About the other graphical options, it's soon to have a proper answer, but we read all this feedback specifically to think about covering these possibilities. ;)
Click to expand...
Hi, dauphinois here.

First of all, let met tell you I absolutely love these map dev diaries! The granularity is insane for a game of this scale.

Secondly, let me preface by saying I have not studied history or anything like that but I have a few interrogations. It is possible I am completely wrong about these next sentences as I am but a mere Maths Teacher.

I do not know what "Dauphiné valentinois" refers to even after searching a bit for the term online. It seems like a mix of two different things : The "dauphiné" (which could be called "Le Dauphiné De Viennois" but in 1337, the capital of the Dauphiné has not been Vienne for 200+ years if I recall correctly) which is a state of the HRE in 1337 (which is named "Viennois" sadly on the political map...) and the "valentinois" which joined the french realm in 1316.

It is the Dauphiné that will indeed be sold by the last "independent" "dauphin" Humber II in 1349 to future king of France Charles V.

As I said, in 1337, the capital of the Dauphiné is now Grenoble and has been for a while so is it possible to consider a name change from "Viennois" ? To "Dauphiné" or "Dauphiné de Viennois"?
On a side-note, I think "Viennois" was never used to call the whole Dauphiné but only for one the four countries of the "Bas-Dauphiné", the one surrounding Vienne (obviously) afaik.
"Dauphiné" is really the important word imo as its was called "Le dauphin". When it got acquired by the french realm, the tradition stayed and the oldest son of the king became called the "dauphin".

Thank you very much for these reads and delicious screenshots!
 
Last edited:
Fitz___ said:
Hi, dauphinois here.

First of all, let met tell you I absolutely love these map dev diaries! The granularity is insane for a game of this scale.

Secondly, let me preface by saying I have not studied history or anything like that but I have a few interrogations. It is possible I am completely wrong about these next sentences as I am but a mere Maths Teacher.

I do not know what "Dauphiné valentinois" refers to even after searching a bit for the term online. It seems like a mix of two different things : The "dauphiné" (which could be called "Le Dauphiné De Viennois" but in 1337, the capital of the Dauphiné has not been Vienne for 200+ years if I recall correctly) which is a state of the HRE in 1337 (which is named "Viennois" sadly on the political map...) and the "valentinois" which joined the french realm in 1316.

It is the Dauphiné that will indeed be sold by the last "independent" "dauphin" Humber II in 1349 to future king of France Charles V.

As I said, in 1337, the capital of the Dauphiné is now Grenoble and has been for a while so is it possible to consider a name change from "Viennois" ? To "Dauphiné" or "Dauphiné de Viennois"?
On a side-note, I think "Viennois" was never used to call the whole Dauphiné but only for one the four countries of the "Bas-Dauphiné", the one surrounding Vienne (obviously) afaik.
"Dauphiné" is really the important word imo as its was called "Le dauphin". When it got acquired by the french realm, the tradition stayed and the oldest son of the king became called the "dauphin".

Thank you very much for these reads and delicious screenshots!
Click to expand...
"Dauphiny of Viennois" is the full name of the country in Caesar. It's just shortened to Viennois for the map.
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
As shown on this map, Montpellier is clearly seen by academician concensus as being ruled by the king of Mallorca while being a vassal of France. This adds to the inconsistency, the lack of historical fidelity and the missed opportunity of added flavour resulting of the portraylal of Ponthieu and Aquitaine being ruled directly by England.

Why show Evreux as a French vassal in a personnal union with Navarra when you don't show Aquitaine, Ponthieu and Montpellier as french vassals in a union with foreign leaders. I know the initial argument in the tinto maps for Ponthieu was that this would be too small of a country. But how can you use this argument when you've given HRE such a concentration of small nations ?

And if the argument was that these vassals were acting pretty independently anyway, well this was the case for many French vassals which still have been rightfully portrayed as vassals (like Brittany or Flanders).

I understand that it was something that was not possible to be modelled in EU4 or CK3 as those games don't have the tools to represent a situation where a sovereign leader is also leader of a vassal. But PC has those tools and yet it chooses not to use them which is a bit disappointing as portraying things that way is a net loss of historicity and flavour.
For people who still watch this thread, do you have specific arguments it shouldn't be portrayed that way ?

From https://www-numeriquepremium-com.gorgone.univ-toulouse.fr/doi/book/10.14375/NP.9782746756748

1723557587221.png
 
  • 5Like
Reactions:
SaintDaveUK said:
"Dauphiny of Viennois" is the full name of the country in Caesar. It's just shortened to Viennois for the map.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the clarification ! Would have preferred for "Dauphiné" (as it is commonly used for abbreviation (and maybe even was the official name once Grenoble became the capital?)) to appear on the map rather than "Viennois" still.

When the game is done and we get (hopefully but I think I read it was in the plans) the choice to get regional names, I assume it will be in french?

Thank you!
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Great job. I remember that Frane had a long period of religious wars with a strong catolic league.... No less than 8 wars before the Edict of Nantes was issued.

I seriously think it should be implemented in some way, as the HRE religious wars maybe..... This also will prevent France to always blob everyone.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Sulphurologist said:
Just like Iberia, I kind of forgot to make a topography analysis for France.

Again, I think an additional category for rolling topography would benefit France a LOT for topographic granularity, but for now, a lot of flatlands will remain just that.

Summary:
  • General rearrangements for the Auvergne-Cevenne region (more hills and mountains).
  • A few minor adjustments along the edges of the map
  • Some rearrangements for the Provence.

As usual, potential 'ridge crossings' as purple lines. Again, I made my topographical suggestions independently of these crossings, so feel free to ignore them while interpreting these maps.
Current Topography according to TintoSuggested Topography'Changelog' of suggested topography
View attachment 1181752View attachment 1181753View attachment 1181754

Terrain Ruggedness IndexDEM - linearDEM - exaggerated lower topography
View attachment 1181759View attachment 1181756View attachment 1181757
Click to expand...
Same thing here, wouldn't it be better to post it in the TM France feedback thread?
 
pasglop said:
Alright, here are my thoughts on the region names, as a Frenchman from Brittany, going roughly north to south by larger area and keeping mostly to the list of Ancien Régime provinces or natural regions of France. Most of these will be "change the name of the city to the name of the region around it":

Arras -> Artois [the area also includes French Flanders, but eh, Artois is good enough I guess]
Amiens -> Picardie
Guise -> Guise works but Vermandois would be better IMO

Rouen -> Caux, name of the "Pays" around Rouen
Alençon -> Being on such a large area, there is no good alternate name for it. Maybe Ouche, which is the area roughly in the center?
Caen -> No alternate name, the area is litterally "Plaine de Caen" in French. Caen is good
Cherbourg -> Either Cotentin (the better one, and the name of the rough area) or the name of one of its two constituent provinces: Avranchais or Coutançais.

Dreux -> Drouais
Paris -> Either keep it or Île de France, both work
Nemours -> Gâtinais? It's a fair bit larger, but Nemours was one of the capitals of Gâtinais
Meaux -> Brie
Soissons -> Soissonnais
Reims -> Rémois
Châlons-en-Champagne -> Champagne
Troyes -> It's also Champagne, so maybe keep Troyes
Chaumont -> Bassigny

Verdun -> Barrois
Metz -> Messin
Nancy -> No other possible name I think?

Lower Alsace -> no better name
Upper Alsace -> no better name

Cornouaille -> Basse-Bretagne
Vannes -> Vannetais
Rennes -> Rennais
Nantes -> Nantais

Angers -> Anjou
Mayenne -> no better name
Le Mans -> Maine
Blois -> Blésois maybe? Blois is fine as is
Tours -> Touraine
Orléans -> Orléanais
Berry -> no better name

Nevers -> Nivernais
Dijon -> Dijonnais
Chalon-sur-Saône -> Either Chalon (its name at the time) or Chalonnais

Amont, Milieu Aval -> I deeply hate these, but they are historical, so no better name.

Thouars -> Vendée
Saintes -> Saintonge
Poitiers -> Poitou (there is also Angoumois in there that in an ideal world would be split)
Aubusson -> Marche (and IIRC its main city should be Guéret, not Aubusson, but I'm not sure)
Limoges -> Limousin

Bourbon -> Either keep it or Bourbonnais, either is fine.
Clermont -> Auvergne? Not really sure
Aurillac -> Fine as is, from the Counts of Aurillac
Lyon -> Keep it, or Lyonnais, either is fine

Bresse -> no better name
Vienne -> Viennois or Bas-Dauphiné (better IMO)
Grenoble -> Haut-Dauphiné
Savoy -> no better name

Nice  -> probably keep as is, it wasn't in France at any point in this era anyways
Avignon -> Venaissin?
Aix-en-Provence -> Aix

Nîmes -> I thought for sure there was a better name but alas, couldn't find one
Viviers -> Vivarais
Narbonne -> Narbonnais
Toulouse -> no better name
Carcassonne -> No better name

Rouergue -> no better name
Quercy -> no better name
Périgord -> no better name
Bordeaux -> Bordelais

Muret -> Comminges
Auch -> Armagnac
Mont-de-Marsan -> Landes? May be too anachronistic
Dax -> no better name, as this was historically just part of Gascogne
Pau -> Béarn

Bayonne -> Labourd


EDIT: for the locations, many have [city]-sur-[river] (Chalon-sur-Saône for example). Most of these were added later and were only known by their first word (like Chalon). Northwest of Paris, there is also a pink location, unreadable but probabaly Conflans-Sainte-Honorine ? If I'm right, it was only called Conflans in this era, and was a fairly important city.
Click to expand...
For Alsace, you can have : Nordgau/Nortgowe and Sundgau/Suntgowe.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back