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Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
Countries.jpg

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

g&gs.png

Guelphs.jpg

Ghibellines.jpg

Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Dynasties
dynasties.png


Locations
Locations.jpg

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
Provinces.jpg

Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
Cultures.jpg

Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
Religion.jpg

Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
Markets.jpg

There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
Pops Countries.jpg

Pops Locations.png

There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!
 
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> Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Can you maybe do an overlay, the way Hawaii are usually represented on the US map? Or is there no way for the engine to support this?
300px-Hawaii_in_United_States_%28US50%29_%28%2Bgrid%29_%28zoom%29_%28W3%29.svg.png
I think they can do it so that it display constantly as being inside a magnifying glass or such, it's just adding texture?
 
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Considering Climate data:
I assume you are using the 1 km Köppen-Geiger climate map. However as you indicated a 'subtropical' climate in soutwestern France 2 weeks ago, I presume you are using the 1990-2020 climate map. For comparison: link
Based on climatic research I would suggest using the 1901-1930 map; as global temperatures from 14th-15th century Europe more closely match the 1901-1930 situation.
1717766318930.png
1717766374287.png
1717766456142.png

I'm also compiling GIS info on medieval climate; and will share that eventually in the forums for discussion here.
I'm very curious on which aspects of the game this will influence!
 
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Are you planning on showing the Papal exclave of Benevento within the Kingdom of Naples?

Also will the raw good in Civitavecchia change to Alum? the Alum mines of Tolfa produced a lot of the Alum consumed in Italy after they were discovered in the 1400's.

Another note, being from Rome I don't think Umbrian is a good name for the culture around Central Italy, I'm not sure what could you name my culture, something like Middle Italian (a nod to Italiano mediano, the name of the variant of Italian currently spoken in Lazio-Umbria-Marche).
 
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Both Rho and Legnano are on the map O: , this is awesome! Speaking of, will there be at least a flavor event reminiscing the battle of Legnano? :D

Also, bold choice on putting the romagnoli together with the emilians, I'm sure they won't be mad :p
 
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Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.
Glad to hear this. I'm looking so much forward to play as some semi-obscure group and changing the cultural map. Hopefully these kinds of campaigns will come with their own challenges as resisting estates and neighbours taking notice of their traditions being pushed back.

Hopefully we will be able to play as these minorites one way or the other. Embracing local culture?
 
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Any plans for what happens if someone other than the Pope owns Rome? Can you reduce the Papal States down to just the location of Rome without consequences?
Yes, there are consequences.
 
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Is anyone else concerned about the huge difference in location density? Just compare Italy to the Balkans:

One location in Hungary is 5-6 locations in Italy.
I just hope this wont make more dense countries automatically more powerful like with Germany and the rest of Europe in EU4
I also noticed that but given population density and how split Italy was at that time (and for centuries) I'd say that's fair.
 
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Will there be any situation regarding the aragonese conquest of Sardinia and Naples? The Sardinian–Aragonese war is around the corner at the game start and Naples was created as part of the division of the former kingdom of Sicily, so reunification is likely to be a valid cassus belli at the beginning.
 
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I can't figure out the name of the location west of Monferato. Also, wouldn't Chivasso be a better name for the Monferato location, since that was the actual town that was the center of power in the region?
The two locations to the west are Canavese and Valli di Lanzo. Also taking note about Monferrato itself.
 
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One location in Hungary is 5-6 locations in Italy.
I just hope this wont make more dense countries automatically more powerful like with Germany and the rest of Europe in EU4
Hopefully the devs will be willing to increase the density if the necessary sourced data is presented.
 
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Is anyone else concerned about the huge difference in location density? Just compare Italy to the Balkans:

View attachment 1145051

One location in Hungary is 5-6 locations in Italy.
I just hope this wont make more dense countries automatically more powerful like with Germany and the rest of Europe in EU4
I suspect it's because that region is still WIP, that's why we haven't seen it's TM yet.

I would expect all locations be +- the same on release
 
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I have some feedback and clarifications on several points. I'll keep it brief but can elaborate if needed.

1) Nivolet Pass

Screenshot 2024-06-07 150334.png


Is this pass supposed to be the Nivolet? To my knowledge, no army has ever taken this pass to cross the Alps, especially since the first road was built in the 20th century for tourism. It’s not even connected to the north slope, which looks like this:

Screenshot 2024-06-07 145757.png

Screenshot 2024-06-07 150802.png

In my opinion this connection should not exist

2) Savoy-Achaea

Screenshot 2024-06-07 152349.png


The locations of Turin and Pinerolo should be their own nation, the Signoria of Pinerolo, independent from the County of Savoy and ruled by James of Savoy. His cadet branch started off in 1301 and ended in 1418, after which the lands were reunited with the main branch, and the County of Savoy was elevated to a duchy. This should probably be reflected by a custom event of some sort (e.g. as soon as one branch dies out, the other instantly inherits the lands and is made into a duchy).

1717766795624.jpeg


3) Casale and Chivasso

1717799180563.png


I understand that there are already many locations, but is it really necessary to bring together two major cities like Chivasso and Casale in one location? They went through quite different histories: Casale was controlled by the Visconti between 1370 and 1404, while Chivasso was conquered by Savoy starting in 1434. If there were not already an abundance of provinces in Italy I would suggest dividing Monferrato into two locations. The same thing applies to Genoa and Savona, the latter of which was somewhat independent until 1528.

4) Incisa

Screenshot 2024-06-07 152343.png


I don't understand several things about this location. Incisa was the seat of a very small Aleramic marquisate, which remained independent until the 16th century. It is truly strange to give its name to this location, which also includes the more important Nizza or Acqui. It is equally strange to put it under the control of Asti, which actually never ruled either of them. Also, the population of 60,000 is definitely exaggerated, it should probably be swapped with the 30,000 of Asti.

In my opinion the location should be called Acqui and placed either under the control of Montferrat, as it was after 1339, or be an independent tag for reasons I'll explain in the next point. Montferrat should definitely have a core, though.

1717766725961.jpeg



5) Angevin influence

After the extinction of the Aleramici of Monferrato in 1305, many towns in southern Piedmont came under the control of the Guelph party, which answered to Robert of Anjou, count of Provence. The line between Guelph rule and Angevin vassalage is very thin, but I think the best choice, for both historical and gameplay reasons, is to represent this influence through the mechanics of the Guelph League. That said, Alba, Asti, Alessandria, and Pinerolo (perhaps an independent Acqui) should be in the Guelph league. Montferrat, on the other hand, should be an important member of the Ghibelline league, since they defeated, together with Pavia, the Guelphs at Gamenario in 1345, ending Angevin rule.

1325rid1.jpg
 
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First of all, thank you for letting us participate in the development process and for listening to our feedback, I'm sure this will lead to a great result.
I apologize for the textwall, I'll include a TL;DR at the bottom.
I may edit this to correct something along the way.

Here's a couple of suggestions which I hope will be useful:

Let's first address the elephants in the room -
1. Benevento
Long-lasting Holy See enclave in Neapolitan lands, was contested during the succession war and occupied in Napoleonic times, but for most of the timeframe it was under Papal control.
At the start date, the Pope is still in charge, but the townspeople are kinda upset about the poor management.
Pontecorvo has been a similar enclave too, but smaller and less important (no offense) so I understand why it's not shown and I won't advocate for its inclusion.
How to accurately depict it?
> Include Benevento as a location, owned by the Papal States, with low control level.

2. Umbrian culture
I'm sorry to be blunt but the name doesn't make sense. It's like calling Dutch culture "Guelderlandian" or Portuguese culture "Algarvese", it doesn't apply to all of its people. While a bit unaesthetic, "central Italian" is a far better way to include the people governed by the Papal States for a long time, which have a lot in common between them.
How to accurately depict it?
> Change the name from "Umbrian" culture to "Central Italian".

3. Molise
Historically the "Contado of Molise" was centered around Bojano, not Campobasso.
How to accurately depict it?
> Change the location's name from "Campobasso" to Bojano, as it was the administrative center of the County for most of the timeframe.
Contado Di Molise et Principato Ultra.jpg


4. Abruzzo
The location Avezzano should be renamed Celano, in the area of Lake Fucino, drained in 1876, which was the 3rd largest lake in all of Italy after Garda and Maggiore.
Celano is the historical seat of the County of Marsica, its castle - started in 1356 and enlarged in the following century - being the main stronghold in the Lake Fucino's area. It was the starting point of the most important trail for transumanza towards Foggia. Avezzano only became relevant much later.
castello piccolomini.jpg
Tratturo-Celano-Foggia.jpg

Also, both Aquila and Celano should be producing wool, sheepherding has always been the foundation of local economy. The small town of Santo Stefano di Sessanio, in the mountains near Aquila, became under the Medici family one of the main centers in Italy for quality wool's commerce, and a small jewish population resided there.
I guess spices in Aquila is meant to represent Navelli's saffron, I understand if you want to keep it this way.
How to accurately depict it?
> Change the name of "Avezzano" to "Celano", producing Wool, with Oceanic climate, since it's far too cold to be Mediterranean. (Edit - also culture should be majority Neapolitan and minority Central Italian, not the other way around)

5. Umbria
The Tiber Valley (Sansepolcro and Città di Castello) is famous for its tobacco production, started in the late XVI century (even if opposed by the Pope for some time). The tobacco plantations are still an important part of the agricultural landscape today. In game, some time after tobacco has become available in the local markets, the owner(s) of the two locations should be able to start their own production there, maybe by paying an hefty fee (for, like, importing the seeds, studying the issues about the cultivation techniques, etc.), but then it should become profitable in the long run. Historically, the tiny Republic of Cospaia, between Tuscany and the Pope's lands, became home to tobacco smugglers and producers - this could be reflected by increasing local commoners' power once the tobacco production is started.
How to accurately depict it?
> Let the owner(s) of Sansepolcro and Città di Castello choose to start tobacco cultivation there, at an expense, this choice would also slightly increase local commoners' power;

6. Tuscany
> Include some Central Italian pops in Sansepolcro.
> (Edit) Grosseto is mispelled as Grosetto! in the province mapmode

7. Albanian minorities
In the XV century, after the Ottoman conquest of Albania, many Albanians sought refuge in southern Italy, forming today's arbëreshë communities. It would be great to include such an event, in case a Muslim power gets to control Albania, pushing pops to migrate in the in-game provinces of Capitanata, Molise, Terra d'Otranto, Calabria Ultra and Citra, Val di Mazara.

8. Lakes
We still have to take a look at the new terrain map, so forgive me if this isn't relevant, but since you're going for an amazing level of detail, I'd recommend including the following lakes, as I can only see the Garda one in the mapmodes you've shown us:
- Lake Maggiore;
- Lake Fucino;
- Lake Como.
Picsart_24-06-05_12-43-53-348.jpg



TL;DR:
Including Benevento as a location, owned by the Holy See;
Changes to Campobasso->Bojano and Avezzano->Celano;
Changes to Central Italian culture;
Introduction of tobacco plantations in the Tiber Valley;
Event for Albanian pops moving into southern Italy;
Showing major lakes in terrain map.
 
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I can provide some feedback on the Northwest (Piedmont and Liguria) in the next few days.

Dear @Pavía: Can you please share whether minor tags there (especially Alba, Mondovì and Asti) are in some form vassals or under the protection of the Anjou?
 
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