Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

[filthrills]

Alas, again poor Vercelli is mistreated, placed in Novara's province, although we were under Novara's tiranny only for less than 100 years beginning sometime in the 1850s.

shame, shame.

Besides for this major issue really cool map, can't wait C:

 

[GabriKimba]

Pretty late but i think that the location of Belluno could be divided in Belluno and Alpago, the latter producing wood. The Cansiglio forest was famous throughout history because the republic of Venice got the trees to produce oars for their galleis and gondole. These were then sent down the Piave river as "zattere" to reach the lagoon. Some sources:

Karl Appuhn’s Inventing Nature: Forests, Forestry, and State Power in Renaissance Venice

 

[BettinoTaxi]

About the Kingdom of Naples, I think it might be better to represent Taranto more like a vassal, given that the principality was fully integrated only with king Ferdinand I (mid/late 1400)

 

[filthrills]

Actually noticed a couple minor details that could be off, not really sure how this should be taken into account for the provinces they are in, but I'll note it anyway since it's the area I'm from and I know a little bit about its history.

Turin is estimated not to have ever had more than 5000 people during the middle ages, at any rate Vercelli, Novara, Asti; Alessandria and Chieri were all larger during that time and Vercelli in particular was larger than Turin when it passed from the Visconti to the Savoy, as noted by Guillaume Bolomier who was secretary to the Duke.

Vercelli's population reached 10000 people during the middle ages, and went on to provide a large part of the Duchy of Savoy's income starting in 1428.

Also, if you compare maps of Novara and Vercelli in the 17th, 18th and early 19th century, you'll find Vercelli was bigger. It would eventually by placed in the Novara's province in 1859 after Rattazzi's decree.

During the time of the Napoleonic empire, Vercelli was at the head of its own department known as the "Sesia department" or "Dipartimento del Sesia".

Anyway, again, amazing work so far.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

Some feedback on Sicilian localizations @Pavía

1. Agrigento should be renamed Girgenti (and infact you called the province there "Val di Girgenti")

In 1927, Benito Mussolini through the "Decree Law n. 159, 12 July 1927"[36] introduced the current Italianized version of the Latin name.[37] The decision remains controversial as a symbol of Fascism and the eradication of local history. Following the suggestion of Andrea Camilleri, a Sicilian writer of Agrigentine origin, the historic city centre was renamed to the Sicilian name "Girgenti" in 2016.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrigento

2. Cefalu should be renamed Cefalù (if the character ù is permitted)
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cefalù

3. Siracuse should be renamed Siracusa
Syracuse is the english name, Siracusa is the italian name, Siracuse is nothing
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syracuse,_Sicily

 

[Talls'ciavo]

Im not sure about the goods produced in Trieste, it is known that at the time there was a saline just outside the city, later destroyed by the venicians. Or else there are documents registering tributes from the countryside on form of olives and wine.

 

[MateuszG]

Im not sure about the goods produced in Trieste, it is known that at the time there was a saline just outside the city, later destroyed by the venicians. Or else there are documents registering tributes from the countryside on form of olives and wine.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...maps-5-7th-of-june-2024.1686051/post-29682664
I agree, sal in my opinion should be moved to Muggia

 

[rana19]

Hi @Pavía
I wanted to give you some info about the mountain paths in the valleys of Aosta
I saw that you added the col de la seigne and the col ferret.
I would suggest you to remove the col ferret and change it with the col di Gran sèn Bernar.
My reasoning behind this being:

-the col ferret wasn't historically used as a viable path due to it being a very steep (45%) moraine

-the col di Gran Sèn Bernar was used for trade since the Roman foundation of Augusta Praetoria (Aosta)
There was also an hospice fol pellegrines founded at it's top in 1035

In the map you'll see Aosta being connected to Martigny.
I also made the province of Aosta slightly bigger in the south, to rappresent the part of Aosta where the iron mines were present (Cogne)
The Red part (that rappresent the grand sèn Bernar valley)could also become part of Aosta.

 

[Mef]

Hi @Pavía
I wanted to give you some info about the mountain paths in the valleys of Aosta
I saw that you added the col de la seigne and the col ferret.

What you marked as the Col de la Seigne is the Col du Petit St.Bernard, which is another one of those cases where the connection could easily be removed due to not having a suitable road for artillery during the time period. We have debated the topic in this thread and I'm guessing there will be further discussion whenever the HRE thread comes out.

 

[Lyrath__]

It’s hard to give suggestions for improvement without knowing what your design criteria are. There are so many small autonomous or independent entities like all the Northwestern marches (Clavesana, Zuccarello, Dolceacqua, etc.), but that degree of specificity is literally just Voltaire’s Nightmare and would require a supercomputer to run (hey, just like speed 5 in regular eu4!).
I mean, if entities like San Marino, Monaco and Noli are out of the picture, at least until the Italy DLC (*copium*), I understand it makes no sense to add less historically significant locations that would disappear in the first years.

That being said, I have some minor suggestions that haven't been mentioned in the thread yet.


1) County of Tenda

It makes little sense to use the modern French-italian border to separate Nice and Ventimiglia. The county of Tenda (which was technically just the county of Ventimiglia under the Lascaris of Nicaea) was a buffer between Nice, Genoa and Savoy, specifically mentioned as a separate entity in the 1388 treaty of cession of Nice to Savoy. Even culturally, while the Ligurian-ness of Nice is debatable, this can’t be said of the high Roia valley.

The current locations mapmode makes it impractical to have Tenda as a separate location, as it would be almost the same size as Rijeka/Krk, but maybe you could include it in Ventimiglia rather than Nice? Idk what this would do gameplay-wise, as the pass between Cuneo and Nice would be controlled by Genoa, but it would make sense historically, especially if you make Ventimiglia a releasable.

2) Regency of the Seven Sister Communes

An entity in the Asiago plateau, independent** from 1259 to 1807 and predating Switzerland as an Alpine confederation. The flag is also top tier.
They are the historic representative of Cimbrian culture in Italy. Having it would would be cool to show the colonisation of the Northeast by Germans, as the archbishop of Trento recruited Cimbrians of from Asiago to inhabit areas of Trentino that were difficult to develop.

The area of the confederation is also large enough to constitute a location, as it would occupy the northern part of Vicenza. I added a map underneath to show how this could look like.


3) Trentino in general

I know you said you’re going to look into the Tyrol area later, but I still have a few minor nitpicks as it’s the one I know best. I added a map to show my suggestions better (made with a trackpad, be kind plz).

The main change is shifting the Trento-Bolzano border North to Salorno, which is the historical and cultural border. This makes Trento a necessary location to go through the Adige valley, as at the moment you can bypass it by going through Riva del Garda. I know this messes up the historical mapmode a bit, maybe you could add a separate Lavis location instead.
I also changed the impassable terrain a bit to mark less developed/more mountainous areas. I would have added more passes (eg. Folgaria plateau), but you said impassable terrain is actually traversable, and I think this better represents the geography.
Valsugana (Borgo) is separated from Feltre, but that’s just campanilismo on my part.
Asiago, whose importance I explained earlier, takes up the impassable terrain between Feltre and Vicenza. While removing it is technically incorrect, I think that representing the Asiago plateau as its own location is more important. The heavy development of this area by the Cimbrians also warrants a representation of some sort.

Culture-wise, this has already been said but Trentino never had a Bavarian majority. German was the prestige language (HRE and stuff) but people spoke Lombard/Venetian (there are also no historic traces of Ladin in Trento and Riva as the map currently suggests). You showcased an amazing tool that is the distinction between cultures of the elite and peasantry, and this is a good example of why it is useful.

 

[Pilbur]

It’s hard to give suggestions for improvement without knowing what your design criteria are. There are so many small autonomous or independent entities like all the Northwestern marches (Clavesana, Zuccarello, Dolceacqua, etc.), but that degree of specificity is literally just Voltaire’s Nightmare and would require a supercomputer to run (hey, just like speed 5 in regular eu4!).
I mean, if entities like San Marino, Monaco and Noli are out of the picture, at least until the Italy DLC (*copium*), I understand it makes no sense to add less historically significant locations that would disappear in the first years.

That being said, I have some minor suggestions that haven't been mentioned in the thread yet.


1) County of Tenda

It makes little sense to use the modern French-italian border to separate Nice and Ventimiglia. The county of Tenda (which was technically just the county of Ventimiglia under the Lascaris of Nicaea) was a buffer between Nice, Genoa and Savoy, specifically mentioned as a separate entity in the 1388 treaty of cession of Nice to Savoy. Even culturally, while the Ligurian-ness of Nice is debatable, this can’t be said of the high Roia valley.

The current locations mapmode makes it impractical to have Tenda as a separate location, as it would be almost the same size as Rijeka/Krk, but maybe you could include it in Ventimiglia rather than Nice? Idk what this would do gameplay-wise, as the pass between Cuneo and Nice would be controlled by Genoa, but it would make sense historically, especially if you make Ventimiglia a releasable.

View attachment 1148844View attachment 1148845



2) Regency of the Seven Sister Communes

An entity in the Asiago plateau, independent** from 1259 to 1807 and predating Switzerland as an Alpine confederation. The flag is also top tier.
They are the historic representative of Cimbrian culture in Italy. Having it would would be cool to show the colonisation of the Northeast by Germans, as the archbishop of Trento recruited Cimbrians of from Asiago to inhabit areas of Trentino that were difficult to develop.

The area of the confederation is also large enough to constitute a location, as it would occupy the northern part of Vicenza. I added a map underneath to show how this could look like.


3) Trentino in general

I know you said you’re going to look into the Tyrol area later, but I still have a few minor nitpicks as it’s the one I know best. I added a map to show my suggestions better (made with a trackpad, be kind plz).

The main change is shifting the Trento-Bolzano border North to Salorno, which is the historical and cultural border. This makes Trento a necessary location to go through the Adige valley, as at the moment you can bypass it by going through Riva del Garda. I know this messes up the historical mapmode a bit, maybe you could add a separate Laives location instead.
I also changed the impassable terrain a bit to mark less developed/more mountainous areas. I would have added more passes (eg. Folgaria plateau), but you said impassable terrain is actually traversable, and I think this better represents the geography.
Valsugana (Borgo) is separated from Feltre, but that’s just campanilismo on my part.
Asiago, whose importance I explained earlier, takes up the impassable terrain between Feltre and Vicenza. While removing it is technically incorrect, I think that representing the Asiago plateau as its own location is more important. The heavy development of this area by the Cimbrians also warrants a representation of some sort.

Culture-wise, this has already been said but Trentino never had a Bavarian majority. German was the prestige language (HRE and stuff) but people spoke Lombard/Venetian (there are also no historic traces of Ladin in Trento and Riva as the map currently suggests). You showcased an amazing tool that is the distinction between cultures of the elite and peasantry, and this is a good example of why it is useful.

View attachment 1148847

As you mentioned, I believe it is more practical to maintain a direct connection between Cuneo and Nice. This approach better simulates a potential Savoyard/Piedmontese state expanding from Piedmont to Nice without the need to conquer Ventimiglia from Genoa, which did not happen historically.

I also agree that smaller feudal states like Clavesana don't make much sense, as they require a level of granularity that is beyond reasonable. Higher priority should be given to adding locations in Southern Piedmont and western Liguria.

In Liguria, Savona should be the priority, followed by Oneglia. In Southern Piedmont, Savigliano or Cherasco should be added to cover the area currently included in the western part of the location of Alba, which was not controlled by Alba.

 

[galkowskit]

Regarding places like Gibralatar or Venice. Make it small, but make the SEA around it slightly coloured and selectable as if it was a land province (while looking like a coloured sea).

 

[Ispil]

Italy has some rather notable volcanoes that erupted a good number of times during the game's timeframe. Will we see anything regarding the many eruptions of Mount Vesuvius or Mount Etna?

Some of their eruptions had far broader impacts than just the immediate area; supposedly the 1631 eruption of Mount Vesuvius deposited ash all the way in Constantinople. Etna's largest eruption spread ash throughout southern Italy and even all the way to Greece.

 

[Neniu Grava]

The "provençal" culture in Southern Italy should be alpine instead. The settlers originated in the Piemontese Occitan valleys and Dauphiné (vivarroaupenc areas). The modern descendent of this is Gardiol-which is considered a dialect Vivarroaupenc,

 

[Rutto Bionico]

I suggest using this map with historical names as a reference for the names of the territories. I can't post the link but you can find it by searching for "Màtrie di un'altra italia temposospeso". It would obviously be very nice to see the names changing depending on the "dialect", even if it was precisely the 14th century that saw Italian establish itself as a lingua franca on the peninsula.
The Alps cannot help but have an arctic climate.

 

[hardom]

I think you're partially right. Milan's status as guelph or ghibelline is definitely more categorised as "unstable" although probably in 1337 was ghibelline

Milan's flag is the Guelph flag, so there's no doubt that Milan isn't fundamentally ghibelline

Why is Milan with the Ghibellines, Milan it's the model anti-empire city. They even founded the city of Alessandria in honour of Pope Alexander

 

[Greece stronk]

Isn't it a bit early for Albanians to be in Italy?

 

[waeven]

Could the lakes Lago Maggiore and Lago di Como that are north of Milan be added and perhaps even some of the smaller ones like Lago di Lugano, Lago d'iseo, Lago di Varese and Lago d'Orte. I realise some of these are really small but I think some of the bigger ones could be added and it would add to the experience since they are pretty much the same size as Lago di Garda that has already been added. Also just in general would be cool to see more lakes around the world if its possible to squeeze them in

 

[hardom]

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.


Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.


Locations

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.
!

1337 poses challenges to represent Northern Italy that are way bigger than 1444. For example it's at the tail end of the period of these somewhat republican somewhat democratic commune cities in Italy that are mediators of the aristocrats and merchants and artisans, and it's at the rise of the not exactly republic not exactly democratic Signorie powers. Will there be some distinction between the two and some manner to keep our city "Communal"?

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

Also a lot of the Guelph vs Ghibellines conflict is based on the rights of the emperor over northern italy and what it can tax and appoint and whatever more in line with the rules in the german part of the empire vs the autonomy of the cities, will this have an impact on the laws the emperor can pass and what effect approving decrees have in Northern Italy, usually for the less? Will side switching between guelph ghibelline guelph etc change our states autonomy to the empire, and will like progressing the guelphs make these states gradually more autonomous and progressing the ghibellines make gradually less autonomous?

I'm also curious of things like, how much the specifics of the northern italian governments and politics, which at this time are very weird and chaotic, are represented in this game? I always thought that Northern Italy is a bit the more difficult part to represent in-game using general mechanics and why I thought that Northern Italian states were a bit more unfocused in CK2/CK3 and EU4. Since the very secret game PC start date has been pushed earlier than the other similar paradox title, I imagine there must be a lot more inward focus to all the zones of the world idk

 

[Flying Roman]

The Holy See’s hold over it’s Italian holdings at 1337 was incredibly weak. From what I can see from PC’s mechanics, it is my opinion that this is better represented by vassal or independent tags in it’s entirety, including Lazio. In no particular order here are some points that I believe show how weak papal control was:

• Shortly before game start (1327-28), guelph forces, the bulk of which neapolitan, had made two unsuccessful assaults on Rome to try and prevent Ludwig the Bavarian’s coronation in the city. They were only able to enter after the emperor had left and the crucially after the Colonna family which had led the defence had switched sides to guelph. Rome had it’s own independent armed forces.
• From then until Cola di Rienzo takes power for the first time, the city is effectively run by the so-called barons.
• Cola di Rienzo’s revolt/coup was against the Roman barons, not against the pope, who initially welcomes it. Stefano Colonna was busy leading military action against Corneto when this happened, to underline how little control the Pope had if parts of his domain were openly warring against each other.
• Cardinal Albornoz was tasked with leading a mercenary army from Avignon to Rome to secure the papal states in 1353. He subjugated the territories currently represented as owned by the papal states and the independent tags in Umbria in the same way.
• Control over territory held by the Prefetti di Vico ( had to be imposed by force in a conventional war. In game terms this territory would include at least Orvieto, Viterbo, Corneto.
• Spoleto and Assisi were controlled by Perugia before Albornoz’ expedition
• In general, these cities and territories had diplomatic relations, made war and raised troops in the period 1337-1353

Gameplay:

Historicity aside, I believe that these changes would also make for interesting gameplay. Securing the Italian territories and building a power base is the first step for the papacy on the way to breaking free from the French yoke. The Prefetti di Vico were a strong Ghibelline presence right around Rome and would also play into those mechanics. A playable Rome also lets players unleash their inner Cola di Rienzo.


Sources:

I’ve used articles from the Treccani Institute’s encyclopedia, biographical dictionary of italians and historical dictionary, which are available online. It is, however, in Italian.

https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/colonna-stefano-il-vecchio_(Dizionario-Biografico)/
https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/giovanni-dei-prefetti-di-vico/
https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/cola-di-rienzo_(Dizionario-Biografico)/

https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/egidio-de-albornoz_(Dizionario-Biografico)

https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/constitutiones-sanctae-matris-ecclesiae/

Reposting this here from here, under suggestion, for visibility. Looking at the map a bit more, I reckon a potential Rome tag would start with atleast Roma (obviously) and Palestrina (Colonna country). Maybe Tivoli and Anagni. I don’t think Bracciano had been granted to the Orsini yet.