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Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

Hello everyone, and welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Maps! I am once again asking for your support back to the duty of showing a new region of the map of the super secret Project Caesar, which this week is Anatolia!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

A beautifully divided Anatolia! The disintegration of the Sultanate of Rûm in the 13th century, caused by the Mongol invasion, led to multiple Turkish Beyliks grabbing power over their area. Probably the strongest in 1337 is the Ottoman one, founded by the Turkoman leader Osman Ghazi, but there are other strong contenders such as the Eretnids, the Germiyanids, or the Karamanids, which will be fighting for hegemony over the region. You might also notice that the Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option] still holds a few positions in Anatolia, the most notable being the city of Philadelphia. Apart from them, other interesting countries in the region are the Despotate of Trebizond, held by the Komnenoi, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and, of course, The-country-known-in-another-IP-as-Hisn-Kayfa, the Ayyubid remnant in al-Jazira. And you might also notice some Genoese outposts, making them important players as well.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastic map is pretty straightforward, as a different dynasty rules each Beylik. We have fixed the issue with the random dynasty names, so no more weird 'the XXXX of XXXX' dynastic names anymore. To spice things up, we could maybe start a Byzantine discussion: Palaiologos, or Komnenos?

Locations:
Locations.jpg

As usual, please consider that dynamic location naming is not yet a thing in this region, and therefore the inconsistencies in the language used. As an additional note of caution, please don’t use the Aegean Islands as a reference or benchmark for comparison, as a review of them is something that we’ve got on our list of ‘to do’. You may be able to see that the location density in the region is gradual, from denser coastal regions to bigger inland ones.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

Terrain:
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The terrain in Anatolia is quite interesting and unique, as it’s composed of very different features: the central Anatolian Plateau, with a colder climate and more sparse vegetation, is opposed to the rugged and more forested coastlines to the north and south, while only having fluvial flatlands to the west, and in Cilicia (an area that always has been a choke point between Anatolia and Syria. And to the east, the territory becomes increasingly more mountainous, as it approaches the Caucasus.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

We’re back to interesting religious divisions! We have in Anatolia Orthodox, Sunni, Miaphysite, and Nestorian pops. And if you wonder what are those pink stripes in Thrace, they are a Paulician minority.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

There are some interesting materials distributed all over Anatolia, such as Alum (which was a main export to Italy, usually handled by the merchant republics), Silk, Marble, or Copper. And if you’re wondering about the Spices, they were previously Saffron.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

The market centers of the region are Constantinople to the west, Trebizond to the north, and Damascus to the south. Nothing speaks against a Turkish Beylik conquering one or all of them, or creating a new market center, probably in the middle of the Anatolian Plateau, although probably it will require some infrastructure to make it fully functional.

Location and Country Population:
Pops Locations.jpg

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And populations. Byzantium has some edge over each of the Beylikz, but not if they ally with each other, or if they ally with its Balkanic rivals… Also, have I heard about a 66K Ayyubid challenge?

That’s all for today! We’ll most likely be uploading the French feedback results by the end of next week or at the start of the following one (as next week there's an important bank holiday for this company, Midsommar St. John's Day, and some people will be on vacation a few days), and in the meantime, we'll also be reading and answering your feedback about Anatolia. And next Friday, we will be taking a look at Russia. See you then!

PS: I had a flight today that was delayed, therefore the delay on the DD until an (interesting) hour in which I'll be available for replying.
 
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Will there be a mechanic about turkify the anatolia, like in real life migrating turks in anatolia and balkans. For instance "İskan Politikası", which is mean replacement policy for turks in newly conquered lands and giving them arable lands for farming and getting them into timar system. If you include the game this kind of system for ottoman this would be perfect for experience. And in historical perspective, most of the cities in western anatolia like Manisa, Bursa and İzmir, turn into nearly muslim majority cities in 50 years apart start date of project caesars, and ottomans and beyliks working so hard for this assimilation procces, most of these cities has enormous mosques which built in 1300s when they were newly conquered in 50 years.
 
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The ghaza thesis has been descridited

Ghaza thesis as in Ottomans having a specific advantage in zeal and recruitment because of religious fervor has been mostly discredited but it is generally true that a lot of raiders, renegades, adventurers and mercenaries did unify under Ottoman banner because of their proximity to conflict and their overall success. So it's discredited as it being a Muslim religious war endeavor and more that there were lots of people including non-Muslims fighting with Ottomans for various reasons from religion to opportunism to simple plunder. Which was then categorized as a just holy war by later Ottoman historians to glorify the establishment of Ottoman state.
 
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One thing I'm curious about is the silk location near Bursa/Prousa and Nicaea/Iznik, shouldn't it be in one of those two? Rn it's in Bilecik which doesn't have any settlement as far as I know. All the other silk locations are cities like Constantinople, Ephesus, Iconium etc. Shouldn't the Bilecik silk also be in either Prousa or Nicaea?
 
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It's different claiming to be the successors to Rome, than restoring the Roman Empire, as a polity with a certain set of institutions, religion, etc., at least to my eyes.
I can understand Institutions but please don’t Block Rome behind a “Christian” wall, for the vast majority of its history Rome was Pagan and many emperors worshipped many gods from different places before becoming Christian.

So it should be Allowed for Muslim nations to restore Rome if they have the institutions and other requirements fulfilled but not a Religion restriction.
Maybe make it so that you need to Dismantle the HRE and Convert Rome and Constantinople to Islam to unlock the Islamic Roman Empire
 
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Were deep western anatolian greek speaking pops really considered greek? Wouldnt it be more appropriate for them to cling to some type of greco-anatolian identity like say Phyrgian, similar to cappacians in the east. I may be wrong about this but I would love to hear about this topic from someone more knowledgable
 
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It would be Cool if in case the other Turkish Beyliks win the war for Anatolia they adopt the Empire title and get the “Ottoman” missions and mechanics. Like if Candar won the Anatolian wars then they would become the Candari Empire and get all the missions and events that would ever been given to the Ottomans
I will make a detailed thread about that probably. Certain beyliks were much more maritime than Ottomans and reflecting that is great fun, and realistic alternate history.
How will the Coastal Beyliks manage their Army and Manpower if most of their Population is Greek Orthodox rather than Turkish Muslims?
It shouldn't be so. Long post incoming after I eat dinner.

In terms of colors, Greeks should be imperial purple, Turks a beautiful celestial blue (literally called turquoise, come on guys), and Armenians should be apricot colored, as in their flag, because it is their national color. Pontics should be purplish navy and Laz should be straight up navy. Perhaps a pale, brownish purple would work for Cappadocians.
 
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One small issue I noticed immediately, as I've commented about it before; the name of the location shouldn't be "Diyarbakır" but "Diyarbekir", "Amid" or "Kara Amid" instead. Diyarbakır is the modernized version of the name "Diyarbekir" which was used for the broader region around the Diyarbakır Fortress, and the town itself was surrounded by the fortress and was called Amid (or Kara Amid by Turkomans because of the abundance of basalts found in the area - "Kara" means "black"). Since the location itself seems to be bigger than the area surrounded by the fortress, I think naming it "Diyarbekir" would be better. And if you're going by the Latinized version of the Arabic name, I'd then suggest using the same name as the province of "Diyar Bakr", I just wanted to inform you that "Diyar Bakr" and "Diyarbakir" have different meanings.

Tl;dr "Diyarbakir" is the modernized name of the location which has a different meaning, "Diyarbekir" (for Turkish or Kurdish localisations) or "Diyar Bakr" (for Arabic localisations) would probably be better.
 
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Is the Asian part of Kostantiniyye a wasteland?
 
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Were deep western anatolian greek speaking pops really considered greek? Wouldnt it be more appropriate for them to cling to some type of greco-anatolian identity like say Phyrgian, similar to cappacians in the east. I may be wrong about this but I would love to hear about this topic from someone more knowledgable
I think the reality of it might be that medieval peasants did not put so much granular thought into their ethnic identity. There might not be much gameplay value to be gained in separating people out to their Bronze Age tribes
 
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In terms of colors, Greeks should be imperial purple, Turks a beautiful celestial blue (literally called turquoise, come on guys), and Armenians should be apricot colored, as in their flag, because it is their national color. Pontics should be purplish navy and Laz should be straight up navy. Perhaps a pale, brownish purple would work for Cappadocians.
Like this. The colors of cultures should obey some immersion. That’s why I also believed that all French minors should be in various blues
 
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Leo IV Hethumian/Lampron in Cicilia? there's a lot going on around that region at this time regarding Occitaine houses stepping up to rule crusader states like the lusignans taking over, so that might be a bit of awkward start if they sway diplomatic favor over France and Castile like they tried to do historically for any Ottoman run (if they are not getting drop-kicked by Venice)
 
I think the reality of it might be that medieval peasants did not put so much granular thought into their ethnic identity. There might not be much gameplay value to be gained in separating people out to their Bronze Age tribes
But you see, French minors. That’s a feature of France but since it’s presented with some comparable standards, they would be compared.
 
Just wanted to make sure the devs are aware of this thread! I am currently working in a fruit orchard somewhere on the map, but will later revise and reorganise all three of these posts and post them in the Tinto Maps thread, as I did not see many of the map modes when making these and a few location names were illegible. See you in the evening, when I go home and finally sit up in front of the keyboard. Thanks to the devs for including my paternal AND maternal hometowns, and for the amazing community engagement they have, once again :)
I hope the devs are aware that the THA is something to be completely ignored, as it's effectively an organisation that exists purely to understate the genocides committed by the Turk settlers against the Greeks, Armenians, etc.
 
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I do now wonder if you can assign specific colors to culture in the code or if it uses similar goofy ahh system to eu4 where cultures get their color depending on the order in the txt file
 
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I do now wonder if you can assign specific colors to culture in the code or if it uses similar goofy ahh system to eu4 where cultures get their color depending on the order in the txt file
Gonna let out some blame if that mechanic were to be kept:mad:
 
Some suggestions as to some Kurdish principalities to the east, at this time likely vassals to the Sutayids:

Untitled.png

Though this is describing the political situation in 1390, it is likely that at least when it comes to this small detail, it had no changed much since 1337 (the Sutayids had diminished by then, but no power had really taken their place).

For context, a map of the situation in 1390, which is accurate regarding the more sedentary groups but inaccurate in terms of the holdings of the Aq Qoyunlu and the locations of the Qara Qoyunlu, Dulkadir, and Döger:

Untitled.png

I am curious though... how do you plan on representing the Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu, given that they shouldn't hold any land on the map in 1337 (though still exist)?
 
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I am curious though... how do you plan on representing the Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu, given that they shouldn't hold any land on the map in 1337 (though still exist)?
Would that make Sutayid too weak?
… should be fine if there could be any situation guiding Qoyunlus up

we have some Trukomen in AKK’s realm
 
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Would that make Sutayid too weak?
… should be fine if there could be any situation guiding Qoyunlus up

we have some Trukomen in AKK’s realm
Given that historically speaking, they bounce around alliances between the Jalayirids and Chupanids before effectively collapsing shortly thereafter and losing their territory in Iraq to the Qara Qoyunlu, I'd say it's fine for them to be on the weaker side.
 
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