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Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

Hello everyone, and welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Maps! I am once again asking for your support back to the duty of showing a new region of the map of the super secret Project Caesar, which this week is Anatolia!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

A beautifully divided Anatolia! The disintegration of the Sultanate of Rûm in the 13th century, caused by the Mongol invasion, led to multiple Turkish Beyliks grabbing power over their area. Probably the strongest in 1337 is the Ottoman one, founded by the Turkoman leader Osman Ghazi, but there are other strong contenders such as the Eretnids, the Germiyanids, or the Karamanids, which will be fighting for hegemony over the region. You might also notice that the Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option] still holds a few positions in Anatolia, the most notable being the city of Philadelphia. Apart from them, other interesting countries in the region are the Despotate of Trebizond, held by the Komnenoi, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and, of course, The-country-known-in-another-IP-as-Hisn-Kayfa, the Ayyubid remnant in al-Jazira. And you might also notice some Genoese outposts, making them important players as well.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastic map is pretty straightforward, as a different dynasty rules each Beylik. We have fixed the issue with the random dynasty names, so no more weird 'the XXXX of XXXX' dynastic names anymore. To spice things up, we could maybe start a Byzantine discussion: Palaiologos, or Komnenos?

Locations:
Locations.jpg

As usual, please consider that dynamic location naming is not yet a thing in this region, and therefore the inconsistencies in the language used. As an additional note of caution, please don’t use the Aegean Islands as a reference or benchmark for comparison, as a review of them is something that we’ve got on our list of ‘to do’. You may be able to see that the location density in the region is gradual, from denser coastal regions to bigger inland ones.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain in Anatolia is quite interesting and unique, as it’s composed of very different features: the central Anatolian Plateau, with a colder climate and more sparse vegetation, is opposed to the rugged and more forested coastlines to the north and south, while only having fluvial flatlands to the west, and in Cilicia (an area that always has been a choke point between Anatolia and Syria. And to the east, the territory becomes increasingly more mountainous, as it approaches the Caucasus.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

We’re back to interesting religious divisions! We have in Anatolia Orthodox, Sunni, Miaphysite, and Nestorian pops. And if you wonder what are those pink stripes in Thrace, they are a Paulician minority.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

There are some interesting materials distributed all over Anatolia, such as Alum (which was a main export to Italy, usually handled by the merchant republics), Silk, Marble, or Copper. And if you’re wondering about the Spices, they were previously Saffron.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

The market centers of the region are Constantinople to the west, Trebizond to the north, and Damascus to the south. Nothing speaks against a Turkish Beylik conquering one or all of them, or creating a new market center, probably in the middle of the Anatolian Plateau, although probably it will require some infrastructure to make it fully functional.

Location and Country Population:
Pops Locations.jpg

Pops Country.jpg

And populations. Byzantium has some edge over each of the Beylikz, but not if they ally with each other, or if they ally with its Balkanic rivals… Also, have I heard about a 66K Ayyubid challenge?

That’s all for today! We’ll most likely be uploading the French feedback results by the end of next week or at the start of the following one (as next week there's an important bank holiday for this company, Midsommar St. John's Day, and some people will be on vacation a few days), and in the meantime, we'll also be reading and answering your feedback about Anatolia. And next Friday, we will be taking a look at Russia. See you then!

PS: I had a flight today that was delayed, therefore the delay on the DD until an (interesting) hour in which I'll be available for replying.
 
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By the way, if the developers want to divide Kurds into their subdivisions, they should look at Sherefxan Bidlisi. He says there were four groups of Kurds: Lurs (not considered Kurdish today), Guran (Central Kurdish), Kurmanj (Northern Kurdish) and Kalhor (the prevailing tribe at the time among Southern Kurds). Though I would say Kurdish does not need to be subdivided. I am also unclear about how historical Cappadocian is, rather than being just Greek, and wondering if Tsakonian is relevant at all. Any Greek opinion on that would be appreciated. I might make a post about the difference between Yörüks and Turcomans, but I need to do some research. I am of the opinion that Yörüks should be a separate group if the Turcomans are though. In any case, Southern, Western and especially Southwestern Anatolia should be outside of Turkish proper and Sunni proper, just like Eastern Anatolia. Also agree with other forumites about Laz pockets being ahistorical. I also heavily disagree that Azerbaijani Turks should be Iranian at this point. If anything, they should still be Turkoman and eventually split up from other Turkomans.

I don't think there would be a meaningful separation between Yörük and Turcoman in game terms since it would be tribal Turkish pops so just keeping them all Turcoman is more intuitive and more productive overall.
 
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How will the Coastal Beyliks manage their Army and Manpower if most of their Population is Greek Orthodox rather than Turkish Muslims?
With an interesting starting handicap.
 
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Will there be a mechanic about turkify the anatolia, like in real life migrating turks in anatolia and balkans. For instance "İskan Politikası", which is mean replacement policy for turks in newly conquered lands and giving them arable lands for farming and getting them into timar system. If you include the game this kind of system for ottoman this would be perfect for experience. And in historical perspective, most of the cities in western anatolia like Manisa, Bursa and İzmir, turn into nearly muslim majority cities in 50 years apart start date of project caesars, and ottomans and beyliks working so hard for this assimilation procces, most of these cities has enormous mosques which built in 1300s when they were newly conquered in 50 years.
Check the last Tinto Talks. ;)
 
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Leo IV Hethumian/Lampron in Cicilia? there's a lot going on around that region at this time regarding Occitaine houses stepping up to rule crusader states like the lusignans taking over, so that might be a bit of awkward start if they sway diplomatic favor over France and Castile like they tried to do historically for any Ottoman run (if they are not getting drop-kicked by Venice)
Yes!
 
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I have a question on that point: in CK2/3, if you play as the Komnenoi in Trebizond after 1204, the most likely way for you to restore your imperial position is to press a claim on the Byzantine title. In other words, there is a political continuity in the Byzantine Empire. Meanwhile, in EU4, playing Trebizond requires you to conquer the Byzantine Empire and re-establish it. From a game mechanics point of view, there is no political continuity.

In this game, which is the more standard path for Komnenoi player? I want to both restore their position while also maintaining political continuity.

Probably just gonna play as Byzantium and try to get the Komnenoi on the throne from the inside.
Reminder Though that Trebizond gave up its claim in 1281 and bent the Knee to Michael Palaiologos, henceforth styling themselves as Basileus of the East, The Iberians and lands across(Black sea).
I guess that you mean the Armenian Apostolic Church? If that's the case, even if they both are considered part of thr Myaphisite religion (so they share mechanics), they're already split, as being part of different Patriarchates, which are International Organizations.
What about the Syriac Orthodox Church? I see all the Syriacs are Nestorians which really doesn’t make sense to me since even today the majority of Syriacs are Oriential Orthodox Miaphysites and it’s them who migrated into Anatolia when the Byzantine Empire in the 900s gave them Melitene as a capital for their faith and Patriarch and resettled them in areas where Muslims had depopulated or been evicted from.

The key Syriac Writer and Maphrian Gregory Bar Habraeus wrote from Melitene in the late 1200s showing that they were still there too.
 
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We want to give other Turkish Beyliks similar possibilities to those of the Ottomans if they become the 'regional winner', indeed.

I don't think they should get all the possibilities though. Ottomans had several distinct features of governance and administration that separated them from other Turkish beyliks and indeed other Turkic / Turco-Mongol states at the time. Particularly in regards to their pragmatic and dynamic governance and ability to quickly absorb and adapt elites and institutions. Giving other beyliks just same stuff as Ottomans if they happen to replace them really doesn't do justice to their features as they were definitely unique and not just the Turkish beylik that happened to win the Turkish thunderdome.
 
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This is not a tug of war, bring your own sources

Straight up racism. I've said this like eighty times and I will say it once more, MOST OF MY CLAIMS ARE BASED ON EUROPEAN SOURCES. Including Greek and Armenian scientists. You are free to look the books up yourself.
If simply noticing different cultural patterns is racist then sure. Every single culture in the world is exactly the same. And about your sources: I never even saw your original post that you're refering to, so I clearly wasn't talking about you. Just saying in general I would be skeptical of Turkish government sources, especially nowadays that they're ruled by such a corrupt government. And if you did your research into a source, be it Turkish or European or whatever, and you found it to be legit, then I'm all for it.
 
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Well it's not really racism, more like a cultural pattern. And as I said, it's not really better or worse in my opinion. Germans are a lot more stuck up and serious and Turks like to enjoy their life a lot more. And they really love their country, a lot more than Germans (at least nowadays lol). Another problem is the current government in Turkey is very corrupt (no offense). So when you say the sources are highly politicised, I believe you. It makes sense to me.
Corruption is a problem to me. I am a student of Mülkiye , we were the heart of Turkish burocratic tradition for 150 years than Özal and Erdoğan get their own mans into goverment. Many of them being corrupt people beyond anything Turkish state ever seen. Goverment lost majority. In last local elections after many years CHP (centre left party with many Kurdish-Social Democrat memebers which iritates nationalists) got highest votes. It has been first time since 1975 , after at the time leader of the party , Bülent Ecevit was hailed as conquerer of Cyprus before elections. Damage they done is high but we are the ones to fix it (and make it better) . Not just as Mektebi Mülkiye or Harbiye (Harbiye being military school) but as a nation . At the time there was a saying "Mülkiye+Harbiye=Türkiye" . Those times are gone at this point but at that point there was hope that someone can change things (Mostly trust was on Harbiye and military takeovers) , now hope is less as even opposition is not vocal enough about many things.
 
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If simply noticing different cultural patterns is racist then sure. Every single culture in the world is exactly the same. And about your sources: I never even saw your original post that you're refering to, so I clearly wasn't talking about you. Just saying in general I would be skeptical of Turkish government sources, especially nowadays that they're ruled by such a corrupt government. And if you did your research into a source, be it Turkish or European or whatever, and you found it to be legit, then I'm all for it.
You can read Ibn battuta's journey in Anatolia that's the source. And you can understand how taurus mountains and Bhytinia were full of Turcomans. If you are skeptical about gov. There u go my racist friend. Or you can Read Chronicles of Ricoldus de Monte Crucis , 13th century Italian traveller.
 
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I don't think they should get all the possibilities though. Ottomans had several distinct features of governance and administration that separated them from other Turkish beyliks and indeed other Turkic / Turco-Mongol states at the time. Particularly in regards to their pragmatic and dynamic governance and ability to quickly absorb and adapt elites and institutions. Giving other beyliks just same stuff as Ottomans if they happen to replace them really doesn't do justice to their features as they were definitely unique and not just the Turkish beylik that happened to win the Turkish thunderdome.
This is peak other beyliks slander. The westernmost ones on the Aegean coast were a lot more naval oriented than the Ottomans and would likely be more maritime oriented, similar to Greeks, if they won. The Karamanids had a claim to Seljuk legacy. The dubious Ahi polity in Ankara was a republic. The Çandarids were also more maritime oriented, and they held themselves to be successors of the Seljuks at the same time. They had an interest in the Crimean region. The Chepni, Ramazan and Dulkadir Turkomans were far more aggressive and tribal like the Qoyunlus. Eretna was a literal Uyghur, and his state was governed according to Mongol ruling traditions. His family was followed by Kadı Ahmed Burhaneddin, an actual philosopher king and an awesome poet, who had the best shot at Anatolian reunification. I do not know, I am okay with a bunch of alternate history on this subject.
 
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By the way, if the developers want to divide Kurds into their subdivisions, they should look at Sherefxan Bidlisi. He says there were four groups of Kurds: Lurs (not considered Kurdish today), Guran (Central Kurdish), Kurmanj (Northern Kurdish) and Kalhor (the prevailing tribe at the time among Southern Kurds). Though I would say Kurdish does not need to be subdivided. I am also unclear about how historical Cappadocian is, rather than being just Greek, and wondering if Tsakonian is relevant at all. Any Greek opinion on that would be appreciated. I might make a post about the difference between Yörüks and Turcomans, but I need to do some research. I am of the opinion that Yörüks should be a separate group if the Turcomans are though. In any case, Southern, Western and especially Southwestern Anatolia should be outside of Turkish proper and Sunni proper, just like Eastern Anatolia. Also agree with other forumites about Laz pockets being ahistorical. I also heavily disagree that Azerbaijani Turks should be Iranian at this point. If anything, they should still be Turkoman and eventually split up from other Turkomans.
I agree though is better if they don't add the yörüks. Although they came after than other nomadic Turkomans they are still considered Turkomans too, only differentiated in recent times. I think to avoid hyper representation and confusion is better to group nomadic Turkish Anatolian cultures into Turkoman.
 
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Corruption is a problem to me. I am a student of Mülkiye , we were the heart of Turkish burocratic tradition for 150 years than Özal and Erdoğan get their own mans into goverment. Many of them being corrupt people beyond anything Turkish state ever seen. Goverment lost majority. In last local elections after many years CHP (centre left party with many Kurdish-Social Democrat memebers which iritates nationalists) got highest votes. It has been first time since 1975 , after at the time leader of the party , Bülent Ecevit was hailed as conquerer of Cyprus before elections. Damage they done is high but we are the ones to fix it (and make it better) . Not just as Mektebi Mülkiye or Harbiye (Harbiye being military school) but as a nation . At the time there was a saying "Mülkiye+Harbiye=Türkiye" . Those times are gone at this point but at that point there was hope that someone can change things (Mostly trust was on Harbiye and military takeovers) , now hope is less as even opposition is not vocal enough about many things.
I'm sorry you have to experience this. Unfortuantely most Turks I've talked about politics with recently were in favour of Erdogan and the recent changes in government. And unfortunately I feel like very many Turks nowadays are extremely misinformed about Kurds and how their government treats them. I hope Turkey can experience a democratic renaissance in the spirit of Kemal soon.

Edit: I was just informed that Kemal was involved in the Kurdish genocide and I just want to say fuck that guy. However my point remains the same, that hopefully Turkey can one day become democratic and secular and be a valuable member of the European community.
 
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This is peak other beyliks slander. The westernmost ones on the Aegean coast were a lot more naval oriented than the Ottomans and would likely be more maritime oriented, similar to Greeks, if they won. The Karamanids had a claim to Seljuk legacy. The dubious Ahi polity in Ankara was a republic. The Çandarids were also more maritime oriented, and they held themselves to be successors of the Seljuks at the same time. They had an interest in the Crimean region. The Chepni, Ramazan and Dulkadir Turkomans were far more aggressive and tribal like the Qoyunlus. Eretna was a literal Uyghur, and his state was governed according to Mongol ruling traditions. His family was followed by Kadı Ahmed Burhaneddin, an actual philosopher king and an awesome poet, who had the best shot at Anatolian reunification. I do not know, I am okay with a bunch of alternate history on this subject.

Sure, other beyliks can have their own thing, you can have naval oriented ones, the Sufi people's republic ones, or the regular tribal ones like other Turco-Mongol states. They shouldn't just get to also simply take over everything Ottomans have at the same time in regards to administration, governance, military and logistics.
 
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Some suggestions as to some Kurdish principalities to the east, at this time likely vassals to the Sutayids:

View attachment 1151454
Though this is describing the political situation in 1390, it is likely that at least when it comes to this small detail, it had no changed much since 1337 (the Sutayids had diminished by then, but no power had really taken their place).

For context, a map of the situation in 1390, which is accurate regarding the more sedentary groups but inaccurate in terms of the holdings of the Aq Qoyunlu and the locations of the Qara Qoyunlu, Dulkadir, and Döger:

View attachment 1151460
I am curious though... how do you plan on representing the Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu, given that they shouldn't hold any land on the map in 1337 (though still exist)?
I can only say for the moment that we have plans for the White and Black Sheep to appear.
 
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Subjective opinion: The way the Turkish dynasty names all have the pile of suffixes meaning "of the sons of" taking up half the character count is rather ugly. I suggest jusy calling them "Osmanli" and similar.
 
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@Pavía Are u going to make mechanic for Constantinopole for it to be the hardest city possible to conquer and possibility for the attackers to give up bcz of how strong Theodosian Walls were?
We have the Theodosian Walls.
 
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No, Galata was tiny, in our game terms. But it will be portrayed in a certain, different way.
Can you add Kastellorizo?
Kastellorizo was controlled by the Knights Hospitaller until 1461, then by the Kingdom of Aragon until 1512, and subsequently by the Ottoman Empire.
 
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I'm sorry you have to experience this. Unfortuantely most Turks I've talked about politics with recently were in favour of Erdogan and the recent changes in government. And unfortunately I feel like very many Turks nowadays are extremely misinformed about Kurds and how their government treats them. I hope Turkey can experience a democratic renaissance in the spirit of Kemal soon.
I'm ethnically Half Turkish and Half Kurdish. Government treats well to us. I can speak Kurdish but in 80s My famil couldn't openly. My sister couldn't get in University bcs she wore a hijab. she needed to took his hijab off. Hakan Fidan Ministry of Foreign Affairs is Kurdish. Vice President of Turkey is Kurdish. Economy minister Mehmet Şimşek is Kurdish. Moreover, many kurds steal electiricity and don't pay it don't give any taxes to governemnt. I lived in east more than 18 years and saw myself how seperatist Kurds damaged my country as well as how Unionist kurds helped the society in many ways.

Edit: you are just spreading nonsense propaganda and being racist against Turks
 
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