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Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

Hello everyone, and welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Maps! I am once again asking for your support back to the duty of showing a new region of the map of the super secret Project Caesar, which this week is Anatolia!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

A beautifully divided Anatolia! The disintegration of the Sultanate of Rûm in the 13th century, caused by the Mongol invasion, led to multiple Turkish Beyliks grabbing power over their area. Probably the strongest in 1337 is the Ottoman one, founded by the Turkoman leader Osman Ghazi, but there are other strong contenders such as the Eretnids, the Germiyanids, or the Karamanids, which will be fighting for hegemony over the region. You might also notice that the Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option] still holds a few positions in Anatolia, the most notable being the city of Philadelphia. Apart from them, other interesting countries in the region are the Despotate of Trebizond, held by the Komnenoi, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and, of course, The-country-known-in-another-IP-as-Hisn-Kayfa, the Ayyubid remnant in al-Jazira. And you might also notice some Genoese outposts, making them important players as well.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastic map is pretty straightforward, as a different dynasty rules each Beylik. We have fixed the issue with the random dynasty names, so no more weird 'the XXXX of XXXX' dynastic names anymore. To spice things up, we could maybe start a Byzantine discussion: Palaiologos, or Komnenos?

Locations:
Locations.jpg

As usual, please consider that dynamic location naming is not yet a thing in this region, and therefore the inconsistencies in the language used. As an additional note of caution, please don’t use the Aegean Islands as a reference or benchmark for comparison, as a review of them is something that we’ve got on our list of ‘to do’. You may be able to see that the location density in the region is gradual, from denser coastal regions to bigger inland ones.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain in Anatolia is quite interesting and unique, as it’s composed of very different features: the central Anatolian Plateau, with a colder climate and more sparse vegetation, is opposed to the rugged and more forested coastlines to the north and south, while only having fluvial flatlands to the west, and in Cilicia (an area that always has been a choke point between Anatolia and Syria. And to the east, the territory becomes increasingly more mountainous, as it approaches the Caucasus.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

We’re back to interesting religious divisions! We have in Anatolia Orthodox, Sunni, Miaphysite, and Nestorian pops. And if you wonder what are those pink stripes in Thrace, they are a Paulician minority.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

There are some interesting materials distributed all over Anatolia, such as Alum (which was a main export to Italy, usually handled by the merchant republics), Silk, Marble, or Copper. And if you’re wondering about the Spices, they were previously Saffron.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

The market centers of the region are Constantinople to the west, Trebizond to the north, and Damascus to the south. Nothing speaks against a Turkish Beylik conquering one or all of them, or creating a new market center, probably in the middle of the Anatolian Plateau, although probably it will require some infrastructure to make it fully functional.

Location and Country Population:
Pops Locations.jpg

Pops Country.jpg

And populations. Byzantium has some edge over each of the Beylikz, but not if they ally with each other, or if they ally with its Balkanic rivals… Also, have I heard about a 66K Ayyubid challenge?

That’s all for today! We’ll most likely be uploading the French feedback results by the end of next week or at the start of the following one (as next week there's an important bank holiday for this company, Midsommar St. John's Day, and some people will be on vacation a few days), and in the meantime, we'll also be reading and answering your feedback about Anatolia. And next Friday, we will be taking a look at Russia. See you then!

PS: I had a flight today that was delayed, therefore the delay on the DD until an (interesting) hour in which I'll be available for replying.
 
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I see a problem in Eretnids dynasty name. It should be “Eretnaoğulları” not “Eretnağulları”. And whats with that “-ları”? It’s plural suffix in Turkish. Shouldn’t it be like “Karamanoğlu” since we refer the surname of the ruler. Their surnames wasn’t plural.
 
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I'm not an expert in theology, but doesn't the term "Myaphisite" refers to different Christian beliefs that say that Jesus has 2 distinct natures(in contrast to the other Christian beliefs like Orthodoxss and Catholics), which is true for both the Armenian apostolic and Coptic churches but that's where their similarities pretty much end, like you said they have different patriarchates just like Nestorians( which I think they are also Miyaphisite) and Orthodoxes yet of course you rapresented them differently for obvious reasons.

So I don't think every Eastern Christian patriarchy should be rapresented as a different religion in game and I like the Patriarchates concept, but these 2 "branches" are separated geographically and had different relations and history with other religions to make them 2 separate religions in my opinion.
Actually, nestorians are not myaphisite, since they split after the 3rd ecumenical council (Efeso), while myaphisit split after the 4th (Calcedonia).
 
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Given the scarcity of scholarship in English and the challenges of working with primary sources for this period, your work is impressive!

However, as a historian working in a closely related field, I am intrigued by some of the choices you made.

1) Why did you choose to make the Alaiye beylik independent from the Karamanids? Literary sources (such as al-Umari) and material evidence (epigraphy, numismatics) contradict such a decision (at least until the early 15th century). The beyliks were fairly loose entities but in this case, why favor the Alaiye branch over others, like Ermenek?

2) How are you planning to model the Iranian and Mongol populations? While Turkish immigration during the Mongol invasions is well-documented, there was also significant Iranian immigration. Michael Meinecke and Carole Hillenbrand have covered this topic extensively. Additionally, sizable Mongol communities existed in areas like Sivas (see Juergen Paul) and the Bulgar Mountains.

3) The existence of the Akhi Republic is a hotly debated topic. Akhi brotherhoods and lodges were widely dispersed across Seljuk Anatolia and the post-Seljuk period. It seems peculiar to designate them as an independent “dynasty” solely in Ankara. Why not name it “Ankara” instead, with a Republican government? Also, why did you choose the Mengucek dynasty for this region?

4) Simple curiosity, why did you select certain Seljuk remnants, such as the Kubadids, while excluding others (e.g., Arzen)?

That’s all for now. Thanks for your work.
I'm bookmarking the post to reply more consistently in a few days, as I prefer to check in detail with the content designers who worked in the region, and they'll be on vacation next week (there's a juicy bank holiday in Spain). But as a start, about number 3, it's an interesting suggestion; and, as I just answered in another post, the ruler (and his dynasty) is generated randomly, as we don't really know who could be.
 
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'The Rise of the Turks'.

We also considered 'The Turkish Thunderdome!', but we want the flavor of the game to be historically immersive... :p
How many situations will be active within the first ten to twenty years of the game? Because right now it seems like a lot.

Will they be pretty front loaded with over two thirds of the situations in the first half of the game?
 
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I see a problem in Eretnids dynasty name. It should be “Eretnaoğulları” not “Eretnağulları”. And whats with that “-ları”? It’s plural suffix in Turkish. Shouldn’t it be like “Karamanoğlu” since we refer the surname of the ruler. Their surnames wasn’t plural.
I think that this was noticed this week, and changed in one of WIP branches, but it has not yet been implemented. I'll double-check, in any case.
 
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I see a problem in Eretnids dynasty name. It should be “Eretnaoğulları” not “Eretnağulları”. And whats with that “-ları”? It’s plural suffix in Turkish. Shouldn’t it be like “Karamanoğlu” since we refer the surname of the ruler. Their surnames wasn’t plural.
No, the plural form is typically used for dynasties (sonS of), while the singular form refers to an individual within the dynasty. Alternatively, they could have employed the Persian form commonly found in literature from that period (awlad-i x).
 
It's different claiming to be the successors to Rome, than restoring the Roman Empire, as a polity with a certain set of institutions, religion, etc., at least to my eyes.
Ah yes the famously one religion through all time Roman Empire. Following a static unchanging polytheistic religion, that never added a cult of emperors or many kinds of syncretic practices/beliefs or certainly not convert to Christianity. Could never happen again. (I don't actually think Ottoman is "the true heir of Rome" but wanted to point out that Rome had bigger religion changes before, going from ancient polytheism thru to Christianity is much bigger change than from Abrahamic monotheistic Christianity to Abrahamic monotheistic Islam)
 
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I look forward to all the Tinto Maps but Anatolia is one of the ones I've been most looking forward to! Also glad to hear that a Komnenian player wouldn't have to conquer the Roman Empire to become emperor.

Out of curiosity, maybe there's too few to see, are there any Shia pops in Anatolia at the start or do they come later?
 
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There are some geographical issues.

There should be more farmlands, especially in the south near Çukurova. Also in the western coast and in the middle. Sparse vegatation is too big in the middle. That area is actually called the breadbasket of turkey.

Subtropical climate should include more provinces to the east, at least including Rize.

There should be coal in Karabük (north).

Too much forest in the west. This area should contain more woods/grasslands and less forest.
 
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There’s a Turkish saying that goes like “Step on the head of the snake while it’s (still) small(young)”. Maybe you can include this saying in some of the missions, events or something that is about the Turks in the Anatolia, or the Ottomans in particular. Since they are not as big and as powerful as they are going to be. That is about beating them of course. Could be good flavor imo. Like using this saying against the ones who coined it. Though I wouldn’t wanna see it trigger or let it trigger as a Turk :)

“Yılanın başını küçükken ezeceksin!”

Edit: Not sure if it was used around 1337.
 
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1718983869405.png


Thank you for another batch of amazing maps and hard work on this game, as always!
But I do have one critical remark. It's probably already been discussed, but this image again shows it very clearly: the color palette seems inappropriate for this type of game. It doesn't look serious, adult. There's too much pink and purple, and the colors in general are too bright, carnival-like, like some sort of children online game. But above all, it doesn't feel historical! They don't give the impression of a historical map, and therefore go against the basic pillars of the design. Milder colours in more natural shades would have been more appropriate. Or is it important to have this particular look for some reason? I understand the desire for clear distinctiveness, but is it necessary to choose these particular colours?
 
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controversial option:

It might be a great idea to implement essential spices besides other spices. As mentioned, Saffron would be quite an interesting creation as to others like Cardamon, Vanilla, or even Mahlab and cinnamon.

This would diversify the spice trade and make it more competitive, even creating a monopoly, or spice wars.
 
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There should be coal in Karabük (north).
For the record: coal was discovered in the Zonguldak Basin (the only place in Turkey with minable coal) in the 1820s and mining started in the 1840s.
So this barely qualifies as being possible in the game's time period. Maybe something for a late spawn-in.
 
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I see a problem in Eretnids dynasty name. It should be “Eretnaoğulları” not “Eretnağulları”. And whats with that “-ları”? It’s plural suffix in Turkish. Shouldn’t it be like “Karamanoğlu” since we refer the surname of the ruler. Their surnames wasn’t plural.
I'm curious, perhaps a native Turkish speaker can help me out, if we can have the same word represented differently in both surnames and dynasty names would it be any better? E.g. The name as "Dave Karamanoğlu", belonging to the "Karamanoğulları Dynasty"?
 
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I don't know if this is the place but can you give us some information about the migration patterns into and from anatolia? I think this is an important point because as far as I know, one of the important advantages the Ottomans had over the other beyliks were that they were a frontier beylik. This enabled them to gather religiously and sometimes tribally motivated extra pops (Ghazi warriors) throughout anatolia for their armies. This was especially important for the 14th century as the Mongol invasions and the soon to come Timur would plunge significant populations in iran and mesopotamia to migration into anatolia. Even the tribe that founded the Ottomans were such a tribe fleeing the Mongol invasions and was relocated to the frontier by the then still alive Seljuk sultanate. To the best of my knowledge this influx of population was one of the main means and also one of the main motivations of westward expansion of the Ottomans. It also partly accounts for the quick expansion of Ottoman power and Turkish population into Rumelia.

I don't know if you would/could implement such an emergent and complex migration dynamic over a large distance but such a system would make the rise of the Ottomans against both their beylik rivals and the Byzantines more realistic and simulative rather than tied to certain gamey Otto-specific bonuses or events.
 
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View attachment 1151388

Thank you for another batch of amazing maps and hard work on this game, as always!
But I do have one critical remark. It's probably already been discussed, but this image again shows it very clearly: the color palette seems inappropriate for this type of game. It doesn't look serious, adult. There's too much pink and purple, and the colors in general are too bright, carnival-like, like some sort of children online game. But above all, it doesn't feel historical! They don't give the impression of a historical map, and therefore go against the basic pillars of the design. Milder colours in more natural shades would have been more appropriate. Or is it important to have this particular look for some reason? I understand the desire for clear distinctiveness, but is it necessary to choose these particular colours?
This new provinces mapmode is our youngest mapmode and somewhat hot code. It is scheduled for a bit of artist love.
 
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