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Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

Hello everyone, and welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Maps! I am once again asking for your support back to the duty of showing a new region of the map of the super secret Project Caesar, which this week is Anatolia!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

A beautifully divided Anatolia! The disintegration of the Sultanate of Rûm in the 13th century, caused by the Mongol invasion, led to multiple Turkish Beyliks grabbing power over their area. Probably the strongest in 1337 is the Ottoman one, founded by the Turkoman leader Osman Ghazi, but there are other strong contenders such as the Eretnids, the Germiyanids, or the Karamanids, which will be fighting for hegemony over the region. You might also notice that the Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option] still holds a few positions in Anatolia, the most notable being the city of Philadelphia. Apart from them, other interesting countries in the region are the Despotate of Trebizond, held by the Komnenoi, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and, of course, The-country-known-in-another-IP-as-Hisn-Kayfa, the Ayyubid remnant in al-Jazira. And you might also notice some Genoese outposts, making them important players as well.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastic map is pretty straightforward, as a different dynasty rules each Beylik. We have fixed the issue with the random dynasty names, so no more weird 'the XXXX of XXXX' dynastic names anymore. To spice things up, we could maybe start a Byzantine discussion: Palaiologos, or Komnenos?

Locations:
Locations.jpg

As usual, please consider that dynamic location naming is not yet a thing in this region, and therefore the inconsistencies in the language used. As an additional note of caution, please don’t use the Aegean Islands as a reference or benchmark for comparison, as a review of them is something that we’ve got on our list of ‘to do’. You may be able to see that the location density in the region is gradual, from denser coastal regions to bigger inland ones.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain in Anatolia is quite interesting and unique, as it’s composed of very different features: the central Anatolian Plateau, with a colder climate and more sparse vegetation, is opposed to the rugged and more forested coastlines to the north and south, while only having fluvial flatlands to the west, and in Cilicia (an area that always has been a choke point between Anatolia and Syria. And to the east, the territory becomes increasingly more mountainous, as it approaches the Caucasus.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

We’re back to interesting religious divisions! We have in Anatolia Orthodox, Sunni, Miaphysite, and Nestorian pops. And if you wonder what are those pink stripes in Thrace, they are a Paulician minority.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

There are some interesting materials distributed all over Anatolia, such as Alum (which was a main export to Italy, usually handled by the merchant republics), Silk, Marble, or Copper. And if you’re wondering about the Spices, they were previously Saffron.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

The market centers of the region are Constantinople to the west, Trebizond to the north, and Damascus to the south. Nothing speaks against a Turkish Beylik conquering one or all of them, or creating a new market center, probably in the middle of the Anatolian Plateau, although probably it will require some infrastructure to make it fully functional.

Location and Country Population:
Pops Locations.jpg

Pops Country.jpg

And populations. Byzantium has some edge over each of the Beylikz, but not if they ally with each other, or if they ally with its Balkanic rivals… Also, have I heard about a 66K Ayyubid challenge?

That’s all for today! We’ll most likely be uploading the French feedback results by the end of next week or at the start of the following one (as next week there's an important bank holiday for this company, Midsommar St. John's Day, and some people will be on vacation a few days), and in the meantime, we'll also be reading and answering your feedback about Anatolia. And next Friday, we will be taking a look at Russia. See you then!

PS: I had a flight today that was delayed, therefore the delay on the DD until an (interesting) hour in which I'll be available for replying.
 
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Given the scarcity of scholarship in English and the challenges of working with primary sources for this period, your work is impressive!

However, as a historian working in a closely related field, I am intrigued by some of the choices you made.

1) Why did you choose to make the Alaiye beylik independent from the Karamanids? Literary sources (such as al-Umari) and material evidence (epigraphy, numismatics) contradict such a decision (at least until the early 15th century). The beyliks were fairly loose entities but in this case, why favor the Alaiye branch over others, like Ermenek?

2) How are you planning to model the Iranian and Mongol populations? While Turkish immigration during the Mongol invasions is well-documented, there was also significant Iranian immigration. Michael Meinecke and Carole Hillenbrand have covered this topic extensively. Additionally, sizable Mongol communities existed in areas like Sivas (see Juergen Paul) and the Bulgar Mountains.

3) The existence of the Akhi Republic is a hotly debated topic. Akhi brotherhoods and lodges were widely dispersed across Seljuk Anatolia and the post-Seljuk period. It seems peculiar to designate them as an independent “dynasty” solely in Ankara. Why not name it “Ankara” instead, with a Republican government? Also, why did you choose the Mengucek dynasty for this region?

4) Simple curiosity, why did you select certain Seljuk remnants, such as the Kubadids, while excluding others (e.g., Arzen)?

That’s all for now. Thanks for your work.
I'm curious about number 2, specifically Iranian migrations.Would you say the name of the books or a link to the articles?
 
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I hope the devs are aware that the THA is something to be completely ignored, as it's effectively an organisation that exists purely to understate the genocides committed by the Turk settlers against the Greeks, Armenians, etc.
THA's stance on modern events is completely irrelevant, and THA is only mentioned in the passing, most of my points stand on Vryonis and Cahen and Emecen. Stop making everything about politics.
 
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@Pavía Are u going to make mechanic for Constantinopole for it to be the hardest city possible to conquer and possibility for the attackers to give up bcz of how strong Theodosian Walls were?
 
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I think you got the Laz part wrong. There werent pockets of Laz in southern and southern western parts of Pontus(Empire of Trebizond), rather they were dispersed along the coastline of the eastern parts, from their eastern most border with Georgia to city center of Trebizond itself. I recommend Anthony Bryer's books on the issue such as ''The Empire of Trebizond and the Pontos'' or ''Peoples and Settlement in Anatolia and the Caucasus''. There was a Colchian tribe named Tzannoi in and around the city(Trebizond) itself but they were Hellenized by the time game starts so even the eastern parts would be mostly Greek excluding the parts where Laz are still spoken today.
 
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Oh hell nah we boutta start Greco-Turkish war out here
I have gone through about five books and tens of articles, compiled all the relevant information on demographics of Anatolia and wrote about forty pages of sheer text. I tried to be as objective, transparent and helpful as possible. This discussion happened mainly in the "Greek orthodox pops disappear too quickly" thread, on here, and in my thread. So far I've gotten like a hundred or so respectfully disagrees combined, and up until now none of those people cared enough to find sources contradicting mine. Several nitpicked specific sentences and mocked me, but again no sources. Just a YouTube screenshot of a political map of the Byzantine Empire. I am at the end of my wit really. It doesn't feel like a fruitful argument at all. (Obviously not including Immortal Impi, Zerodv and other wonderful people who argued with me respectfully and criticised me constructively, they are great)
 
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Currently at peace, although we may review this.
Perhaps make it an event similar to "Surrender of Maine" in Eu4 but focus on Nicomedia? The event could be called "The Fall of Nicomedia" (If you play Byz) and "The Conquest of Nicomedia" (if Turk). You can choose to not start at war with penalties or start the war with simbolic goodies.
 
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Hey Pavia, what is your favorite nation to play as so far...
And thanks for all the feedback you give us.
I think that I've mentioned in another post, I think that the countries that I've playtested the most are Genoa and Hungary, which are quite different. But recently we've put some work into Anatolia, and given the feedback tweaks that we'll implement in a few weeks, I think that I'll test the Ottomans more thoroughly.
 
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I think that I've mentioned in another post, I think that the countries that I've playtested the most are Genoa and Hungary, which are quite different. But recently we've put some work into Anatolia, and given the feedback tweaks that we'll implement in a few weeks, I think that I'll test the Ottomans more thoroughly.
Lucky you!
 
I have gone through about five books and tens of articles, compiled all the relevant information on demographics of Anatolia and wrote about forty pages of sheer text. I tried to be as objective, transparent and helpful as possible. This discussion happened mainly in the "Greek orthodox pops disappear too quickly" thread, on here, and in my thread. So far I've gotten like a hundred or so respectfully disagrees combined, and up until now none of those people cared enough to find sources contradicting mine. Several nitpicked specific sentences and mocked me, but again no sources. Just a YouTube screenshot of a political map of the Byzantine Empire. I am at the end of my wit really. It doesn't feel like a fruitful argument at all. (Obviously not including Immortal Impi, Zerodv and other wonderful people who argued with me respectfully and criticised me constructively, they are great)
I've read your posts and the the books you have cited before. You skew information way too much towards your own views which even if based on these books are simply not generally accepted. The books you cited also do not show the same information you have shown. You are too biased. Leave it to the people at Paradox Tinto to use the same sources as you and come to their own conclusion.
 
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We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

There are algorithms you can use for generating color palettes that maximize distinctiveness based on human visual perception.

Here's an open source python code library for reference:
 
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I've read your posts and the the books you have cited before. You skew information way too much towards your own views which even if based on these books are simply not generally accepted. The books you cited also do not show the same information you have shown. You are too biased. Leave it to the people at Paradox Tinto to use the same sources as you and come to their own conclusion.
I am not a game designer and what I do is ultimately irrelevant, they are free to look up those sources themselves. Of course I might have some bias like everyone, but I use direct quotations a lot of the time. You are also free to post excerpts from those books that prove me wrong, I am willing to concede when I am wrong. You would be the first to oppose my posts with a source lol
 
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I think you need to take a few geography lessons.
Anatolia/Caucasus is only loosely and arbitrarily considered not part of Europe. I meant places completely removed like subsaharan Africa or India or anywhere in the Americas. The map literally shows Thrace and southern Bulgaria in it. Yes Ik Anatolia is also called Asia Minor but definitions are flexible and the Ottoman Empire was a European power as far as I'm concerned
I guess that Anatolia can be considered part of Asia... But there will be more soon, in any case.
Will there be enough time to cover the whole world and respond to feedback before release? The level of granularity is nice but it'd be really sad if parts of the map get left behind
 
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Why did you show turkish culture with stripes in the West and south anatolia as long as there were under turkish control? What is the point of that? Trying to make greeks look more? :D
 
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I wonder how nations in the Maghreb region are going to "perform" without an ottoman alliance while having the iberian kingdoms as major threat. Since the ottomans do not start as powerful as usual, even with allying the Ottomans I doubt that the ottomans can be a helpful hand for the Maghrebians! :oops: I really wonder!
 
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