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Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

Hello everyone, and welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Maps! I am once again asking for your support back to the duty of showing a new region of the map of the super secret Project Caesar, which this week is Anatolia!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

A beautifully divided Anatolia! The disintegration of the Sultanate of Rûm in the 13th century, caused by the Mongol invasion, led to multiple Turkish Beyliks grabbing power over their area. Probably the strongest in 1337 is the Ottoman one, founded by the Turkoman leader Osman Ghazi, but there are other strong contenders such as the Eretnids, the Germiyanids, or the Karamanids, which will be fighting for hegemony over the region. You might also notice that the Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option] still holds a few positions in Anatolia, the most notable being the city of Philadelphia. Apart from them, other interesting countries in the region are the Despotate of Trebizond, held by the Komnenoi, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and, of course, The-country-known-in-another-IP-as-Hisn-Kayfa, the Ayyubid remnant in al-Jazira. And you might also notice some Genoese outposts, making them important players as well.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastic map is pretty straightforward, as a different dynasty rules each Beylik. We have fixed the issue with the random dynasty names, so no more weird 'the XXXX of XXXX' dynastic names anymore. To spice things up, we could maybe start a Byzantine discussion: Palaiologos, or Komnenos?

Locations:
Locations.jpg

As usual, please consider that dynamic location naming is not yet a thing in this region, and therefore the inconsistencies in the language used. As an additional note of caution, please don’t use the Aegean Islands as a reference or benchmark for comparison, as a review of them is something that we’ve got on our list of ‘to do’. You may be able to see that the location density in the region is gradual, from denser coastal regions to bigger inland ones.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain in Anatolia is quite interesting and unique, as it’s composed of very different features: the central Anatolian Plateau, with a colder climate and more sparse vegetation, is opposed to the rugged and more forested coastlines to the north and south, while only having fluvial flatlands to the west, and in Cilicia (an area that always has been a choke point between Anatolia and Syria. And to the east, the territory becomes increasingly more mountainous, as it approaches the Caucasus.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

We’re back to interesting religious divisions! We have in Anatolia Orthodox, Sunni, Miaphysite, and Nestorian pops. And if you wonder what are those pink stripes in Thrace, they are a Paulician minority.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

There are some interesting materials distributed all over Anatolia, such as Alum (which was a main export to Italy, usually handled by the merchant republics), Silk, Marble, or Copper. And if you’re wondering about the Spices, they were previously Saffron.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

The market centers of the region are Constantinople to the west, Trebizond to the north, and Damascus to the south. Nothing speaks against a Turkish Beylik conquering one or all of them, or creating a new market center, probably in the middle of the Anatolian Plateau, although probably it will require some infrastructure to make it fully functional.

Location and Country Population:
Pops Locations.jpg

Pops Country.jpg

And populations. Byzantium has some edge over each of the Beylikz, but not if they ally with each other, or if they ally with its Balkanic rivals… Also, have I heard about a 66K Ayyubid challenge?

That’s all for today! We’ll most likely be uploading the French feedback results by the end of next week or at the start of the following one (as next week there's an important bank holiday for this company, Midsommar St. John's Day, and some people will be on vacation a few days), and in the meantime, we'll also be reading and answering your feedback about Anatolia. And next Friday, we will be taking a look at Russia. See you then!

PS: I had a flight today that was delayed, therefore the delay on the DD until an (interesting) hour in which I'll be available for replying.
 
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I'm CERTAINLY NOT AN EXPERT but there are some mistakes on climate map I think. Inner Anatolia is more cold arid locations like Karaman(larende), and Black Sea coastal region could have more subtropical locations on eastern part near Trabzon. (I live there)
 
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Are there any Greek friends under this thread that can check Greek Byzantine sources?

According to my sources some more regions around Marmara (especially islands) may belong to Byzantine instead of Karesi beylik. I hope you guys see this and check from your sources.
 
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You left the informative reaction on all of my long posts except the culture one. Does that mean no more Turks? Not even a few locations?
Sometimes I might miss it, or the forum may not be fast enough when clicking the reactions. In any case, no worries; they way we're working is that I give early and quick replies the first few days of a Tinto Maps, but then some people from my team and I review the thread more in detail a few days/weeks after, so these kind of comments are not missed.
 
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I don't know if this has been suggested before as I haven't read the entire thread, but I would like to suggest the start of Byz/Ottoman to be similar to the French/English in EU4. Which goes to say they're technically at war but due to gameplay reasons the actual gameplay of the war isn't active until an event.

Example:

Event for Byzantine Empire (meantime to happen from start date 12 months):
The Aftermath of Nicomedia,
Option 1) Formalize a peace with the sultan, Lose core to Nicomedia(Izmit), lose prestige/legitimacy, pay tribute and recieve migration from Nicomedia to Constantinople
Option 2) Reassert claim to Nicomedia, gain prestige/legitimacy and declare war on the sultan.

Option 1 being the closest to history only delayed for gameplay purposes, Option 2 being the option for the romanphiles that are ready to take on the Ottomans despite rebelions raging on in the rest of the empire.
I suppose on that same note, in 1337 do you have Serbia and the Byzantines having a truce? There was a conflict between them that ended in a peace treaty in 1334; they should probably have a truce in 1337.

The reason I bring it up is because if you have the Byzantines and the Ottomans at war and Serbia not having a truce in 1337, then Serbia would be best off more-or-less immediately declaring war against the Byzantines if the Byzantine AI isn't inclined to simply "give up defending Anatolia" as it was in 1337.

Historically speaking, at this point the Byzantines basically gave up trying to defend Anatolia. My fear of having the Ottomans and Byzantines start at war in 1337 is that the AI will overcommit and ruin itself economically trying to defend territory that it can't afford to defend. That and, with Serbia not having a truce with the Byzantines, Serbia declaring war and conquering large swathes of the Byzantines.

All of that before the civil war!
Taking note of both. ;)
 
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Is it even possible as Byzantium to dodge the civil war or will it be hardcoded to happen with no ways to get around it?
Or is that there some teutonic order from EU4 kind of method where if you did a few things you can avoid it, something the AI never does anyway.
 
Kind of off-topic but I find it real funny how half the Turks on the forums use an Atatürk avatar. Like I constantly come across a post and say "When did I write that?" only to see it is a compatriot of mine.
 
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Im kind of ignorant on this topic i dont have any sources but if somebody have, please reply to me. Turks were separate mainland greeks and anatolian greeks from each other. Anatolian greeks were called as “Rum” while mainland Greeks called as “Yunan” i dont have any sources or anything but this is how i remember it. Will be there another sub culture for Anatolian Greeks like you did for Cappadocian culture?

This is a recent phenomenon, there wasn't any such separation of Greeks before modernity and "Yunan" was adopted to roughly correspond to the new Hellene identity of independent Greek states from 19th century onward.

Turks then referred to Christian Greek-speakers as Rum, and the term Rumi was also used as self-description by Turkish-speaking Muslims from Rumelia and Western Anatolia as those territories were considered part of "Rum". Concept of Rum also moved a bit Westwards over time as Byzantine control over Anatolia receded and Turkish speakers stopped using it as a self-identifier from late 18th century onward. Cemal Kafadar's "A Rome Of One's Own: Reflections on Cultural Geography and Identity in the Lands of Rum" examines this mainly from Muslim side but also touches upon Greek identity of Rum.
 
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it seems very clear to me that Hungary will have some very unique mechanic linked to them
I don't think there's any particularly unique mechanic attached to Hungary, but if there is, then maybe it could be something related to the Holy Crown. In this time period, one could become the legitimate King of Hungary only if he (or she) was crowned:
  • in Fehérvár, in the Royal Basilica,
  • by the Archbishop of Esztergom,
  • with the Holy Crown of Hungary.
(After the Turks took Fehérvár, that one condition of the coronation ceased to exist, but the other two remained a requirement all the way until the abolition of the kingdom in 1946.)

So perhaps there are some mechanics one has to interact with to secure the legitimacy of succession. Perhaps the benefit of this system is increased legitimacy, access to CBs related to the claims of the Hungarian Crown or something related to the King of Hungary's claim to the style of "Apostolic Majesty" and the rights associated with it.


With this being said, Hungary probably is just a strong tag at the start with a very wide array of gameplay options, which makes it an ideal playtest subject.
 
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I don't think there's any particularly unique mechanic attached to Hungary, but if there is, then maybe it could be something related to the Holy Crown. In this time period, one could become the legitimate King of Hungary only if he (or she) was crowned:
  • in Fehérvár, in the Royal Basilica,
  • by the Archbishop of Esztergom,
  • with the Holy Crown of Hungary.
(After the Turks took Fehérvár, that one condition of the coronation ceased to exist, but the other two remained a requirement all the way until the abolition of the kingdom in 1946.)

So perhaps there are some mechanics one has to interact with to secure the legitimacy of succession. Perhaps the benefit of this system is increased legitimacy, access to CBs related to the claims of the Hungarian Crown or something related to the King of Hungary's claim to the style of "Apostolic Majesty" and the rights associated with it.
interesting, i honestly was thinking something about the order of saint george (first secular chivalric order) or the interregnum (which hungary just got out of), and would fall back into later down the line.

With this being said, Hungary probably is just a strong tag at the start with a very wide array of gameplay options, which makes it an ideal playtest subject.
i could be wrong but i don't think so, pavia said he played it a lot of time and is one of those he likes the most, something with nothing but a strong start and with a lot of gameplay options won't make the cut for one of the most liked, it's the flavor that come with it that makes it the most liked.
 
I am curious about this. There is a theory that Karamanlides are Turkic mercenaries settled by the Byzantines to the region, which does not make sense IMO. The sensible theory is that they are Turkified Greeks of Karaman and they came about in 15th or 16th century. So maybe an event?
Yeah, perhaps. I know they had gravestones that had Greek letters for Turkish so I'd say that lends credence to the idea of a turkfiied greek Orthodox population.
 
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Yeah, perhaps. I know they had gravestones that had Greek letters for Turkish so I'd say that lends credence to the idea of a turkfiied greek Orthodox population.
I personally think they were Turkified Cappadocian Greeks. So I think Cappadocian culture representation is okay in game, maybe there could be even that would mention them turning into Karamanlides but mainly fun event nothing extraordinary.
 
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I breathed a sigh of relief when I saw the cultural and religious map for anatolia. I'm a little surprised by the extent of Armenians in Eastern anatolia given its the region the turks arrived from, but other than that, looks great! I really look forward to a resurgant Rome game!
 
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Alright, so I made a vegetation map for Anatolia:
anatoliavegetation.png

Sources used are (all datasets from the previously linked UN database):
  • Soil and terrain suitability, rain-fed, low inputs
  • Modern tree cover (I took into account that tree cover was higher in the game's time period, so there are more woodlands than today) (oh also, I used a map with higher resolution than the one on the UN site, but trees are trees)
  • Land cover for sparse vegetation
Obviously this can't be translated into the game with the same granularity (which is why I didn't even bother trying to fill in the existing locations), but I hope that maybe some locations can be redrawn a bit to better represent the geography, if political borders don't interfere. Along the coast, there are quite stark contrasts between intensely farmed valleys and densely forested hills.

By the way: How come vegetation in Syria in the map posted has different colors?

Edit: Made a few small adjustments
 
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very happy to read this. I get Genoa (the golden child for the bank mechanic) and i also get the Ottomans for well obvious reasons, but now i wonder about Hungary, it seems very clear to me that Hungary will have some very unique mechanic linked to them, anyone has any idea about what that could be? or maybe you Pavia wanna enlighten us :)
I don't think there's any particularly unique mechanic attached to Hungary, but if there is, then maybe it could be something related to the Holy Crown. In this time period, one could become the legitimate King of Hungary only if he (or she) was crowned:
  • in Fehérvár, in the Royal Basilica,
  • by the Archbishop of Esztergom,
  • with the Holy Crown of Hungary.
(After the Turks took Fehérvár, that one condition of the coronation ceased to exist, but the other two remained a requirement all the way until the abolition of the kingdom in 1946.)

So perhaps there are some mechanics one has to interact with to secure the legitimacy of succession. Perhaps the benefit of this system is increased legitimacy, access to CBs related to the claims of the Hungarian Crown or something related to the King of Hungary's claim to the style of "Apostolic Majesty" and the rights associated with it.


With this being said, Hungary probably is just a strong tag at the start with a very wide array of gameplay options, which makes it an ideal playtest subject.
interesting, i honestly was thinking something about the order of saint george (first secular chivalric order) or the interregnum (which hungary just got out of), and would fall back into later down the line.


i could be wrong but i don't think so, pavia said he played it a lot of time and is one of those he likes the most, something with nothing but a strong start and with a lot of gameplay options won't make the cut for one of the most liked, it's the flavor that come with it that makes it the most liked.
Hungary starts in a good position, with a decent size to manage, good population, lots of resources, plenty of opportunities for internal and external expansion, etc. So I find it really good to test the core systems and mechanics, and also differente gameplay options.
 
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Are the Berber tribal groupings of Saharan Sanhaja, Masmuda, and Zenata represented as estates?
Also I worry a Marinid collapse and Wattasid rise being railroaded would give AI Spain a big opportunity to expand ahistorically most often
Not sure why the marinid colapse should be railroded, the relatioship between the dynsaties ruling the magreb and the berber clans under them should be a big focus when developing the region and should allow for dynamic collpases of north african dynsaties (and births of new ones) based on them losing the support of the clans. That same mechanic should also make it really hard for non muslim magrebis (such as the iberian kingdoms) to mantain control on anything but some ports. Historically Spain didn't ever attempt to conquer the magreb, they conquered some ports and attempted to support dynsaties more sympathetic to their interests (such as the hafsids against the ottomans) but the idea of subduing the berber clans would have been seen as ridiculous.
 
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Calling Iranian/Shirvani Turks "Azerbaijani" would hardly be the most awkward or anachronistic ethnonym in PC so far. *cough* "Arpitan" *cough* "Asturleonese* *cough* whatever's going on with continental Germanics *cough*
Asturleonese is simply a way to lump together asturians and Leonese, while it is true that the people would have been refered to as either leonese or asturian the same could be argued that the term "basque" was almost never used with basques being refered to by the province they were from (vizcaínos, navarros, alaveses or guipuzcoanos) basque wasn't even a unified language, yet most would agree (myself included) that having a singular basque culture makes sense.
 
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Are the Romani(Rom) present in the game as a culture and do they have any events regarding their history?
The XIV and XV century is were gypsie clans would migrate and stablish themselves across western Europe so I would hope that there were some events to simulate such migrations.
 
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