• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

Hello everyone, and welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Maps! I am once again asking for your support back to the duty of showing a new region of the map of the super secret Project Caesar, which this week is Anatolia!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

A beautifully divided Anatolia! The disintegration of the Sultanate of Rûm in the 13th century, caused by the Mongol invasion, led to multiple Turkish Beyliks grabbing power over their area. Probably the strongest in 1337 is the Ottoman one, founded by the Turkoman leader Osman Ghazi, but there are other strong contenders such as the Eretnids, the Germiyanids, or the Karamanids, which will be fighting for hegemony over the region. You might also notice that the Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option] still holds a few positions in Anatolia, the most notable being the city of Philadelphia. Apart from them, other interesting countries in the region are the Despotate of Trebizond, held by the Komnenoi, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and, of course, The-country-known-in-another-IP-as-Hisn-Kayfa, the Ayyubid remnant in al-Jazira. And you might also notice some Genoese outposts, making them important players as well.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastic map is pretty straightforward, as a different dynasty rules each Beylik. We have fixed the issue with the random dynasty names, so no more weird 'the XXXX of XXXX' dynastic names anymore. To spice things up, we could maybe start a Byzantine discussion: Palaiologos, or Komnenos?

Locations:
Locations.jpg

As usual, please consider that dynamic location naming is not yet a thing in this region, and therefore the inconsistencies in the language used. As an additional note of caution, please don’t use the Aegean Islands as a reference or benchmark for comparison, as a review of them is something that we’ve got on our list of ‘to do’. You may be able to see that the location density in the region is gradual, from denser coastal regions to bigger inland ones.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain in Anatolia is quite interesting and unique, as it’s composed of very different features: the central Anatolian Plateau, with a colder climate and more sparse vegetation, is opposed to the rugged and more forested coastlines to the north and south, while only having fluvial flatlands to the west, and in Cilicia (an area that always has been a choke point between Anatolia and Syria. And to the east, the territory becomes increasingly more mountainous, as it approaches the Caucasus.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

We’re back to interesting religious divisions! We have in Anatolia Orthodox, Sunni, Miaphysite, and Nestorian pops. And if you wonder what are those pink stripes in Thrace, they are a Paulician minority.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

There are some interesting materials distributed all over Anatolia, such as Alum (which was a main export to Italy, usually handled by the merchant republics), Silk, Marble, or Copper. And if you’re wondering about the Spices, they were previously Saffron.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

The market centers of the region are Constantinople to the west, Trebizond to the north, and Damascus to the south. Nothing speaks against a Turkish Beylik conquering one or all of them, or creating a new market center, probably in the middle of the Anatolian Plateau, although probably it will require some infrastructure to make it fully functional.

Location and Country Population:
Pops Locations.jpg

Pops Country.jpg

And populations. Byzantium has some edge over each of the Beylikz, but not if they ally with each other, or if they ally with its Balkanic rivals… Also, have I heard about a 66K Ayyubid challenge?

That’s all for today! We’ll most likely be uploading the French feedback results by the end of next week or at the start of the following one (as next week there's an important bank holiday for this company, Midsommar St. John's Day, and some people will be on vacation a few days), and in the meantime, we'll also be reading and answering your feedback about Anatolia. And next Friday, we will be taking a look at Russia. See you then!

PS: I had a flight today that was delayed, therefore the delay on the DD until an (interesting) hour in which I'll be available for replying.
 
  • 150Love
  • 137Like
  • 7
  • 4
  • 1
Reactions:
This is peak other beyliks slander. The westernmost ones on the Aegean coast were a lot more naval oriented than the Ottomans and would likely be more maritime oriented, similar to Greeks, if they won. The Karamanids had a claim to Seljuk legacy. The dubious Ahi polity in Ankara was a republic. The Çandarids were also more maritime oriented, and they held themselves to be successors of the Seljuks at the same time. They had an interest in the Crimean region. The Chepni, Ramazan and Dulkadir Turkomans were far more aggressive and tribal like the Qoyunlus. Eretna was a literal Uyghur, and his state was governed according to Mongol ruling traditions. His family was followed by Kadı Ahmed Burhaneddin, an actual philosopher king and an awesome poet, who had the best shot at Anatolian reunification. I do not know, I am okay with a bunch of alternate history on this subject.
You don't say?
 
A lot of these places are taken from modern villages that didn't exist back then or were too insignificant to have been recorded if they ever existed in 1337. And a lot uses the wrong names for the time or its name is from a completely different culture. The list below isn't everything in the map, just a more detailed explanation of some of the locations. For Greek, I see so many Latin spellings or Turkish forms. Greek does not use the letter C, and most of their place names ends in -on, -os, and -ai. If you see any Greek place names (not all the time) that has the letter C or ends in -ia, -us, -um, or -ae then it's most likely Latin.

EASTERN ROME (No, it's not Byzantium)
  • Adrianople: The city was named Hadrianoúpolis after the Roman Emperor Hadrian. However, the spoken letter H was dropped and the pronunciation became Adrianoúpolis. Adrianople is English form.
  • Alexandroúpolis: The city was founded in the 19th century as a small fishing village called Dedeağaç. During the Eastern Roman period, it was a mountainous region with a few fortifications. Avantas castle, located just outside the city, was one of the castles built by the Romans in the 14th century.
  • Biga: Within the area of Biga is the site of the ancient city of Pegaea, also known as Pegae or Pegai. Since coming under Ottoman rule in 1364 it has been known as Biga.
  • Dimotica: "Didymoteicho" is the modern Greek form of Didymóteichon. The name first appears in 591/592, and most resulted from the refortification of the city. The corrupted short form Dimotica or Demotica or variants thereof are attested in Western languages.
  • Gallipoli: Gallipoli is the Italian form of the Greek name Kallípolis.
  • Karadeniz Ereğli: Its name was Hērákleia Pontikḗ in ancient times but changed to Pontohērakleia during the Eastern Roman period.
  • Üsküdar: Üsküdar started as Chrysopolis and later became known as Skoutàrion under the Romans. Its name was retained until the founding of the Turkish Republic.
TURKISH BEYLIKS
  • Akçakoca: After the Turkish conquest, the town was named Akçaşehir, before being changed to Akçakoca in 1934.
  • Ankara: The name of the city changed to Ankara , Engürü and Engüriye after the Turks came to Anatolia. However, the name Ankara is mentioned in various official Ottoman documents from the 16th century onwards.
  • Beypazari: Beypazarı, one of the timarli sipahi centres, was named Beğ Bazaar, based on the sipahi lord in the region and the intensity of commercial and economic life.
  • Bodrum: The modern name Bodrum derives from the town's medieval name Petronium, which has its roots in the Hospitaller Castle of St. Peter (built from 1402 onwards). Halicarnassus is located nearby Bodrum and was called Halikarnas by the Ottomans. However, Halicarnassus was practically abandoned by this point with only a small village nearby whose name I can't find and was definitely not Bodrum.
  • Bursa: The city was referred to as Hüdavendigar during the Ottoman period. During the Ottoman period, Bursa continued to be the source of most royal silk products. The city was the main production centre for the kaftans, pillows, embroidery and other silk products for the Ottoman palaces until the 17th century.
  • Çanakkale: Çanakkale was originally the site of an Ottoman fortress called Ḳalʿa-i Sulṭānīye. From the late 17th century onwards it became known for its glazed Çanakkale ceramics, hence the later name Çanak Kalesi "Pottery Castle". This was adopted as the official name for the town in 1890.
  • Eğirdir: In the 1300s, Eğirdir (also known as Falakābād during this period) became the capital of the Hamidids beylik.
  • Iznik: No, I'm not suggesting the name be changed to fruits. Ibn Battuta stayed in Iznik in 1331. According to him, the town was in ruins and inhabited by a small number of people in the service of the sultan. Ibn Battuta doesn't actually give a figure but the population of 52k seems high for a population of "small" from six years before the start date. He also mentions that the town produced fruits, walnuts, chestnuts and grapes, not lumber.
  • Meğri: Fethiye was formerly known as Makri and is located on the site of the ancient city of Telmessos. Telmessos was ruled by the Anatolian beylik of Menteşe starting in 1284, under the name Beskaza. It became part of the Ottoman Empire in 1424, and was called Meğri until 1934.
  • Nazilli: Nazilli is a Turkish name that has somehow evolved from the former (also Turkish) name of Pazarköy (marketplace). In 1390 Bayezid I brought the area into the Ottoman Empire. At this time, the town comprised two villages, Cuma Yeri (Friday Square) and Pazarköy (Weekday Market). The town was only later referred to as Nazliköy.
  • Söğüt: According to Ottoman cadastral record books of 1487 in Hüdavendigâr area the town was registered under the Turkish name Beğsöğüdü or Bey Söğüdü, and this name took the form Söğüd in government records after the first half of the 17th century.
  • Susurluk: Originally, the place where Susurluk is now located was an empty area of forest and swamp belonging to Karasi Bey. Under Bey's grandchildren, it was managed as a farm called Susığırlık. While Susığırlık was only a farm, it began to serve as a rest stop for caravans in the 17th century. I don't know where copper came from, but its resource would be agricultural related if Paradox is going to keep a farm location.
OTHERS
  • Foça: Foça is the Turkish form of Phocaea which was the Greek name of the city. I don't speak Genoese but the city's name in Italian is Focea.
  • Hiambouli: The name evolved through Diampolis, Hiambouli (in Byzantine chronicles), Dinibouli (Arabic chronicles), Dbilin (in Bulgarian inscriptions), and Diamboyuli or Jamboli to become Yambol.
1719019258066.png

There are way more in the eastern part of the map that has similar issues but I'll pass the torch to somebody else to do it. If I messed up or missed something, please do tell.
 
  • 14Like
  • 2Love
  • 1
Reactions:
Currently at peace, although we may review this.
I don't know if this has been suggested before as I haven't read the entire thread, but I would like to suggest the start of Byz/Ottoman to be similar to the French/English in EU4. Which goes to say they're technically at war but due to gameplay reasons the actual gameplay of the war isn't active until an event.

Example:

Event for Byzantine Empire (meantime to happen from start date 12 months):
The Aftermath of Nicomedia,
Option 1) Formalize a peace with the sultan, Lose core to Nicomedia(Izmit), lose prestige/legitimacy, pay tribute and recieve migration from Nicomedia to Constantinople
Option 2) Reassert claim to Nicomedia, gain prestige/legitimacy and declare war on the sultan.

Option 1 being the closest to history only delayed for gameplay purposes, Option 2 being the option for the romanphiles that are ready to take on the Ottomans despite rebelions raging on in the rest of the empire.
 
  • 9Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
I suppose on that same note, in 1337 do you have Serbia and the Byzantines having a truce? There was a conflict between them that ended in a peace treaty in 1334; they should probably have a truce in 1337.

The reason I bring it up is because if you have the Byzantines and the Ottomans at war and Serbia not having a truce in 1337, then Serbia would be best off more-or-less immediately declaring war against the Byzantines if the Byzantine AI isn't inclined to simply "give up defending Anatolia" as it was in 1337.

Historically speaking, at this point the Byzantines basically gave up trying to defend Anatolia. My fear of having the Ottomans and Byzantines start at war in 1337 is that the AI will overcommit and ruin itself economically trying to defend territory that it can't afford to defend. That and, with Serbia not having a truce with the Byzantines, Serbia declaring war and conquering large swathes of the Byzantines.

All of that before the civil war!
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Please don't forget about my people Varsak Turks in Adana and Toros mountains I'm from Sis (Kozan) and historically my ancestors started to live in the area way before the game's start date. We settled there after running away from Mongols and Memlukeans sent us there after using my people. I want my people at least to be known by the devs by posting here. I hope this comment helps at least a bit for the accuracy of the game.
 
  • 1
  • 1Love
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Cultures:
View attachment 1150913
Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.
IDK if others have mentioned this before, but my one QoL/UI request is to make the highly intermingling major cultures, like Turks-Greeks have highly distinct, contrasted colours. Something like Blue and Red, or Cyan and Green. Right now it's not that pleasant to try to tell the difference between the two when they both have essentially similar colours.
 
  • 10
Reactions:
You're a bit off. Catholics and Orthodox are dyophysite, which means that they believe Jesus is one person with 2 distinct, inseparable natures, divine and human. Miaphysites believe that Jesus is fully divine and fully human, in one physis, or nature. Nestorians are definitely not miaphysites. The "Nestorian churches" broke communion after the Council of Ephesus in 431, while the Miaphysite Churches broke communion after the Council of Chalcedon in 451.
Christology is a bit messy, and you're correct that Nestorians aren't Miaphysite. In fact, the Christology of Nestor is generally regarded as similar to the eventually accepted position of Chalcedonian Christianity. Miaphysite is a bit of an odd term in itself, since the Miaphysite churches agree that the two natures of Christ maintain their distinct qualities of humanness and divinity, despite being merged. Also, naming a religion based on a single sticking point in theology is a bit much for me. So I prefer "Oriental" for these churches.

I also have a bit of an issue with the term Nestorian as it is both pejorative and inaccurate - Nestor's theology did not define the church, he simply wasn't rejected as elsewhere. I'd argue that the relationship with the Persian state was more important, as Persian Christians, already viewed with suspicion by the Zoroastrian state, did not want to have a relationship with an increasingly Roman religion, and took the Council of Ephesus as their chance to create some separation. Because of this, I'd prefer "Syriac" as the term for this religion. I believe it includes both the West Syriac and East Syriac rites.

I do like that I can have a random conversation about Christology on the internet. Only on PDX forums lol.
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Aqueducts. Can I build some aqueducts, and will they appear on the map? I'm just a guy who loves aqueducts, and is desperately trying to ignore the fact that by 1337, the Black Death hasn't reached Europe yet... totally unrelated obsessions.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Well it's not really racism, more like a cultural pattern. And as I said, it's not really better or worse in my opinion. Germans are a lot more stuck up and serious and Turks like to enjoy their life a lot more. And they really love their country, a lot more than Germans (at least nowadays lol). Another problem is the current government in Turkey is very corrupt (no offense). So when you say the sources are highly politicised, I believe you. It makes sense to me.
Firstly you are racist and cringe. Secondly your governments are no better than others, your newspapers lies on daily basis so another rcountry can continue carrying on genocide without any punishment and probably you support them too. Your rankings on freedom are not trustable, that country continues genocide have military police who controls every publication before they are published and censors the places that they don't like so the main opposition newspaper who isn't even against the war have to use brackets in their news they kill journalist daily and have more arreested journalist than Turkey(also just last year a terrorist who was one 'arrested journalists in Turkey list by EU' attacked a hoter in Turkey so that number is a lie too) but still ranks higher. Now EU will probably pass the law for watching every single chat message, they just postponed it to be voted when Hungry is head of commission. Your governments ban every newspaper if they think it is 'disinformation'. You say you don't trust any source other than yours(westerner) and you claim other people are biased or their minds controlled by government.
 
  • 7
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Im shocked of all things that the city of Constantinople isnt set as farmlands being the most populous city in the region at the time, would that be up for change for later or is grassland going to be its probable final foliage setting?
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Dividing Turks and Turkomans is generally not right. I understand that you want to distinguish pastoral-nomadic Turks from settled ones. In that case it is not that bad idea actually. But now I wonder how are you going to depict Caucasian and Persian regions. What about the Turks of these regions? Is there going to be same exact division (Turkish & Turkoman) between settled and nomadic Turks there? I really hoped that you used Turkoman for depicting Turks of Persia and Caucasian regions in that case it would make more sense (in my opinion ofc). Or you are just going to call them Azeris/Azerbaijanis and completely separate them from Turks of Anatolia? Because, let alone today, back then there were practically no difference between Turks living in Anatolia and Caucasia/Persia. Even today most of these so called Azerbaijanis identify themselves as Turks (except citizens of post-Soviet republics). I hope this time Paradox will choose historical accuracy over political correctness :p
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:
or the Moderation team will come and do their job.
To make contributions to the KPI of moderation team. xD

I don't think that the moderation team would kill this thread, wouldn't it?
 
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
To make contributions to the KPI of moderation team. xD

I don't think that the moderation team would kill this thread, wouldn't it?
If moderation team did their job in the first racist message we wouldn't have this much political replies in this thread. I really don't understand how they didn't delete that post. But I feel like that will stay there and they will just delete our replies.
 
  • 5
Reactions:
If moderation team did their job in the first racist message we wouldn't have this much political replies in this thread. I really don't understand how they didn't delete that post. But I feel like that will stay there and they will just delete our replies.
It's of no use to scare people, making them unhappy or not dare to talk & share, which is the meaning why there's a forum.

Speaking of public relations, as long as it won't get PDX into any trouble, they would better keep a losse atmosphere, unless things get out of the limit too much like that K-words war.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
In terms of colors, Greeks should be imperial purple, Turks a beautiful celestial blue (literally called turquoise, come on guys), and Armenians should be apricot colored, as in their flag, because it is their national color. Pontics should be purplish navy and Laz should be straight up navy. Perhaps a pale, brownish purple would work for Cappadocians.
Speaking of the color, I think that the color of Greek is from the marble. No idea why Turkish is using a similar color - probably a mix between Turkoman and Greek.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.
Hard to say since random coloring is kinda, well, hard to say.

1.Is it possible to color it in the manner of Locations coloring? The Provence coloring for now seems to be, well, too colorful or should I say of a too high contrast ratio.

2.Is it possible to give each province a specific color since, well, they're not that many? The old one is not that distinguishable but if I can choose, I'd choose the old one since the latter one is making me feel like playing board card games or some video games like 10 yrs ago.
 
Is there a reason for representing the Turkomans as a separate culture if they can only be tribesmen? Wouldn't them simply being Turkish tribesmen be a more logical approach?
 
  • 3Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
is there a name in greek for the Çatalca peninsula
the province in the map is called Byzantion which is a pretty archaic name for it
I can't seem to find what the peninsula would be called otherwise though
Kaspar Osraige you have any clue? you seem to have answers to a lot of things thankfully lol