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Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

Hello everyone, and welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Maps! I am once again asking for your support back to the duty of showing a new region of the map of the super secret Project Caesar, which this week is Anatolia!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

A beautifully divided Anatolia! The disintegration of the Sultanate of Rûm in the 13th century, caused by the Mongol invasion, led to multiple Turkish Beyliks grabbing power over their area. Probably the strongest in 1337 is the Ottoman one, founded by the Turkoman leader Osman Ghazi, but there are other strong contenders such as the Eretnids, the Germiyanids, or the Karamanids, which will be fighting for hegemony over the region. You might also notice that the Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option] still holds a few positions in Anatolia, the most notable being the city of Philadelphia. Apart from them, other interesting countries in the region are the Despotate of Trebizond, held by the Komnenoi, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and, of course, The-country-known-in-another-IP-as-Hisn-Kayfa, the Ayyubid remnant in al-Jazira. And you might also notice some Genoese outposts, making them important players as well.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastic map is pretty straightforward, as a different dynasty rules each Beylik. We have fixed the issue with the random dynasty names, so no more weird 'the XXXX of XXXX' dynastic names anymore. To spice things up, we could maybe start a Byzantine discussion: Palaiologos, or Komnenos?

Locations:
Locations.jpg

As usual, please consider that dynamic location naming is not yet a thing in this region, and therefore the inconsistencies in the language used. As an additional note of caution, please don’t use the Aegean Islands as a reference or benchmark for comparison, as a review of them is something that we’ve got on our list of ‘to do’. You may be able to see that the location density in the region is gradual, from denser coastal regions to bigger inland ones.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain in Anatolia is quite interesting and unique, as it’s composed of very different features: the central Anatolian Plateau, with a colder climate and more sparse vegetation, is opposed to the rugged and more forested coastlines to the north and south, while only having fluvial flatlands to the west, and in Cilicia (an area that always has been a choke point between Anatolia and Syria. And to the east, the territory becomes increasingly more mountainous, as it approaches the Caucasus.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

We’re back to interesting religious divisions! We have in Anatolia Orthodox, Sunni, Miaphysite, and Nestorian pops. And if you wonder what are those pink stripes in Thrace, they are a Paulician minority.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

There are some interesting materials distributed all over Anatolia, such as Alum (which was a main export to Italy, usually handled by the merchant republics), Silk, Marble, or Copper. And if you’re wondering about the Spices, they were previously Saffron.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

The market centers of the region are Constantinople to the west, Trebizond to the north, and Damascus to the south. Nothing speaks against a Turkish Beylik conquering one or all of them, or creating a new market center, probably in the middle of the Anatolian Plateau, although probably it will require some infrastructure to make it fully functional.

Location and Country Population:
Pops Locations.jpg

Pops Country.jpg

And populations. Byzantium has some edge over each of the Beylikz, but not if they ally with each other, or if they ally with its Balkanic rivals… Also, have I heard about a 66K Ayyubid challenge?

That’s all for today! We’ll most likely be uploading the French feedback results by the end of next week or at the start of the following one (as next week there's an important bank holiday for this company, Midsommar St. John's Day, and some people will be on vacation a few days), and in the meantime, we'll also be reading and answering your feedback about Anatolia. And next Friday, we will be taking a look at Russia. See you then!

PS: I had a flight today that was delayed, therefore the delay on the DD until an (interesting) hour in which I'll be available for replying.
 
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Will it be possible to set the country, culture, dynast, etc map modes to display as flat/solid colors similar to those seen in the terrain/climate/vegetarion, goods, and trade map modes instead of the uneven coloring? Or will I have to find/make a mod for that?
 
As a person that lives in İzmit and İstanbul, I have to say that both of the provinces of Şile and İzmit need to be hills. It is evident in the topographical map. On the climate side, İzmit could use being Subtropical like the neighboring Adapazarı and classified as such on Köppen index although having it as Mediterranean is not a major sin either. To quote the Wikipedia:

"Summers are hot and often muggy, the average maximum temperature is around 30 °C (86 °F) in July and August, while winters are cool and wet, the average minimum temperature is between 0–4 °C (32–39 °F) in January. Precipitation is high and fairly evenly distributed the year round; it is heaviest in late fall and winter. İzmit has a record high temperature of 44.1 °C (111 °F) in July 2000, which is exceptionally high for the region, and a record low of −18.0 °C (0 °F) in February 1929. Snowfall is fairly common, and İzmit's snow depth record is 90 cm (35 in) in February 1929."

Evenly distributed high precipitation does not really fit into Mediterranean climate.

"The city is mostly built on hill slopes because of the cramped area, while flat plains surround the gulf, near the sea. This topographic structure divided the city into two parts. The first was created on flat plains, where the city center is located. The railway and highway networks pass from this area which is close to the Sea of Marmara. The second part was built on hills, with many historic houses from the Ottoman period in the old quarters."

Although plains were first used to establish the city, the majority of the province is covered in hills and the growth happened in that direction. If the terrain is there to simulate army movements, the extremely narrow flat coastline should not be considered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/İzmit (I know the Wiki is unreliable but climate and geography are not really hotly contested political topics, should be fine.)

If the province of Pera is added to the game for the Genoese, it definitely should be hills. It even was the main purpose of the Ottoman era funicular public transport to carry people from the coast to the top of the hill, where the unofficial affluent Latin quarter was with all the embassies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tünel (Again, not a contested topic.)
 
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It was historically considered part of Anatolia geographically but nowadays doing so has irrendentist implications so I assume it might be in the Syria region instead. Alternatively it might part of the Anatolia region in-game but still WIP so it'll be shown when we get to Tinto Maps Syria.
Cyprus - EU5.PNG

One of the earliest maps of Project Caesar came with a look on Anatolia, Greece and Cyprus, as well. It looked like this back then. An amazing amount of granularity.
 
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I believe the section of Eastern Anatolia between Cilicia and Armenian Highlands was Turkified at this point, and think there should be more Turkoman there. I think the Pontic-Turkish border was further east in the Northern Anatolia. I believe Southwestern, Southern and Western Anatolia was even more thoroughly Turkified than central Anatolia at this point in the time, due to violent incursions by Turkomans essentially changing the entire cultural landscape.
As someone who has now read the majority of sources linked by Kaspar especially in regards to Speros Vryonis including that very long book and fascinating book:

The decline of medieval Hellenism in Asia Minor: and the process of Islamization from the eleventh through the fifteenth century (University of California Press, 1986)


I will in large agree with many of his comments. Particularly in regards to Eastern Anatolia that the majority would not have been Armenian (still a significant minority). My issue is his characterisation of the Western settlement. Yes there was Turkish settlement but its had to tell if at 1337 they would have been the majority or minority. I also think its extremely unlikely that the claim it would have been more Turkified than central Anatolia.

The emphasis in most of these academic works included in the quotes Kaspar himself uses, is that these were warzones and often razed to the ground. Settlement even by Turks was not committed to until much later into the 14th Century. Not that there was not any, but that the perpetual state of conflict, disease and even famine/outward migration made these more depopulated than necessarily Turkified.

My suggestion following from Diselface's suggestion would be to extend his map slightly further, but not to the extent of Kaspar in regards to Turkish cultural expansion. Note I am not including Turkoman classification, just a general Turkic identity. Purple being my additions.

Cultures (1).jpg

Seeing that Paradox don't seem to have added dynamic naming for this part of the world yet, I really do hope that for Greek dynamic names they use a spelling more accurate spelling based on actual Medieval/Early Modern Greek pronunciation, rather than the pseudo-ancient Greek spelling they used in most previous games.


Speaking on culture, I can agree with the overall sentiment of this post/thread that there should be a greater amount of Turkish majority locations, though I wouldn't go as all in as Kaspar personally. Specifically, I wouldn't make Turks the majority in coastal Bithynia just yet, given that the most of it had just been conquered in the last decade. These are the rough borders of Turkish-majority Anatolia I personally would go with for 1337:
View attachment 1151410
 
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I'm not an expert in theology, but doesn't the term "Myaphisite" refers to different Christian beliefs that say that Jesus has 2 distinct natures(in contrast to the other Christian beliefs like Orthodoxss and Catholics), which is true for both the Armenian apostolic and Coptic churches but that's where their similarities pretty much end, like you said they have different patriarchates just like Nestorians( which I think they are also Miyaphisite) and Orthodoxes yet of course you rapresented them differently for obvious reasons.

So I don't think every Eastern Christian patriarchy should be rapresented as a different religion in game and I like the Patriarchates concept, but these 2 "branches" are separated geographically and had different relations and history with other religions to make them 2 separate religions in my opinion.
You're a bit off. Catholics and Orthodox are dyophysite, which means that they believe Jesus is one person with 2 distinct, inseparable natures, divine and human. Miaphysites believe that Jesus is fully divine and fully human, in one physis, or nature. Nestorians are definitely not miaphysites. The "Nestorian churches" broke communion after the Council of Ephesus in 431, while the Miaphysite Churches broke communion after the Council of Chalcedon in 451.
 
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As someone who has now read the majority of sources linked by Kaspar especially in regards to Speros Vryonis including that very long book and fascinating book:

The decline of medieval Hellenism in Asia Minor: and the process of Islamization from the eleventh through the fifteenth century (University of California Press, 1986)

Thank you for engaging with my argument and reading the sources man. I think the book is very much awesome. Ludi said on his video that I bend what the book means for my agenda, but I think you would agree that I do not, as someone who read both the book and my posts.
I will in large agree with many of his comments. Particularly in regards to Eastern Anatolia that the majority would not have been Armenian (still a significant minority). My issue is his characterisation of the Western settlement. Yes there was Turkish settlement but its had to tell if at 1337 they would have been the majority or minority. I also think its extremely unlikely that the claim it would have been more Turkified than central Anatolia.
Yes, the gargantuan Armenian blob is likely to change in my opinion. I think the reason people do not believe that Western Anatolia was pretty Turkified at that point is that it's rather counterintuitive, since it's newly lost Byzantine land and to the west.
The emphasis in most of these academic works included in the quotes Kaspar himself uses, is that these were warzones and often razed to the ground. Settlement even by Turks was not committed to until much later into the 14th Century. Not that there was not any, but that the perpetual state of conflict, disease and even famine/outward migration made these more depopulated than necessarily Turkified.
This is good criticism I think, it can't be inferred from Vryonis that these areas were Turkified rather than burnt to the ground. I think Routledge book saying the bishop of Ephesus complained about a lack of Christians might be more relevant here.
My suggestion following from Diselface's suggestion would be to extend his map slightly further, but not to the extent of Kaspar in regards to Turkish cultural expansion. Note I am not including Turkoman classification, just a general Turkic identity. Purple being my additions.

View attachment 1151630
I am fine with this map. It's essentially impossible to know the exact makeup, and this is essentially as good as any. What do you think on the northern border?
 
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The map looks better than I expected, thanks to the team. However, I have a few suggestions;

New Location Suggestions

  • Edincik: It can be added between Bandırma and Gönen in Southern Marmara. I know that it was a more important place than the neighboring locations on the map at the game's start.
  • Ayvalık: It can be added between Edremit and Bergama in Northern Aegean. It becomes an important city in the late period of the game, but I think it can be added as symbolically. I know one of the academies that influenced the Greek world before independence was established here. In the 18th century, it was partially granted autonomy by the Ottomans and became one of the main crowded commercial centers of the Aegean.
  • Söke: It can be placed north of Milas, splitting it in two. In the early period of the game, it was a small place that had just begun to be settled by Turkmens, but perhaps it can be added.
  • Gebze: Between Üsküdar and İzmit in Marmara. At the start of the game, it had just been taken by the Ottomans, and the settlement was starting to be developed.
  • Sille: Just above Konya. During the game's period, it was a place where Muslim and Christian Turks, Greeks and Armenians lived. I don't know exactly when Armenians settled there. On the other hand, one of Greek dialects, ‘Silliot Greek’, references this town.
  • Hemşin: A mountainous region south of Rize. It is a Pontic region predominantly inhabited by Armenians. They became Sunni Muslims later and in modern times they are known as Hamshenis Armenians.
  • Marmara Island: The island is in the Bandırma location on the map. It is famous for its marble deposits. The island's name comes from marble (marmaro in Greek), which later gave its name to the Sea of Marmara. Marble is still being produced, which can be seen even from Google Earth :)

Name and Border Suggestions

  • Görele: Instead of Görele, Tirebolu (Tripoli) could be a good choice.
  • Haymana: It should be slightly south of Ankara and Polatlı. Polatlı and Ankara can be directly adjacent together.
  • Rhaedestus: Its position can be slightly north of its current location.
  • Lesbos: It is the name of the island. The name of that location can be Malva/Molyvos.
  • Ayvacık: The name of the location can be Behram/Makhram (Assos in ancient times). Because Ayvacık was a very small village at that time.
  • Modern names: There are too many modern names on the map. Location names can be reviewed again. For example, Bandırma's name can be updated to Panderma or Banderma. It still says ‘Banderma’ at the city's old train station.

Culture and Religion

  • I am generally happy with the cultural/religious distribution on the map. After all, this is a game and we don’t have official demographic results from 1337 :)
  • Of course, it can be more detailed with minorities. For example, the Catalan population. It can be added to some places in the Aegean and Southern Marmara.
  • Also, will the game include Karamanlides, Turkish speaking Greek-Orthodox people around Konya and Karaman (Larende)?
By the way, I don't know how the location populations are determined. However, places like Manisa and Larende, which were a bit more important at that time, can have higher populations.

I’ve listed a few of my suggestions. Of course, the final decision will be by the game team... On the other hand, Anatolia was a place where many religions and cultures lived together. And I still wish it were so... Maybe, I can achieve this in the game :) Thanks…
 
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Thank you for engaging with my argument and reading the sources man. I think the book is very much awesome. Ludi said on his video that I bend what the book means for my agenda, but I think you would agree that I do not, as someone who read both the book and my posts.

Yes, the gargantuan Armenian blob is likely to change in my opinion. I think the reason people do not believe that Western Anatolia was pretty Turkified at that point is that it's rather counterintuitive, since it's newly lost Byzantine land and to the west.

This is good criticism I think, it can't be inferred from Vryonis that these areas were Turkified rather than burnt to the ground. I think Routledge book saying the bishop of Ephesus complained about a lack of Christians might be more relevant here.
No problem. I agree there is much debate and we will probably never know. Sure burnt to the ground is the maximum statement, but yah get the picture. Outside the direct coastal cities, Imho its either Turkic majority are relatively even. So when I still have it Greek, it may actually be like 55-60% Greek and 40-45 Turkic. I just feel most of the sources coincide more with depopulation and a cultural shift, rather than Turkic dominance.

I do not think you purposefully misinterpreted Vryonis, at the very least I wouldnt call it bad faith. Which is why I didnt feel a whole need into much greater depth than the simple argument I temper your take with.
I am fine with this map. It's essentially impossible to know the exact makeup, and this is essentially as good as any. What do you think on the northern border?
I think the Northern Border is fine. Maybe some Turkic majority might be fair in say Akçakoca area. But otherwise I think its overall fine. I dont think much change is necessary or inherently more accurate. The Laz distribution seems weird to me, but I am not an expert on Caucasian peoples - with only minimal reading on modern day Dagestan, Chechnya, Ingushetia etc which are on the other side of the mountains lol. What changes would you make?
 
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Wish a different name would be used for the Nestorians. ”Nestorian” is equivalent to calling Catholics papists. I wish “Church of the East” was used instead
 
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I think the Northern Border is fine. Maybe some Turkic majority might be fair in say Akçakoca area. But otherwise I think its overall fine. I dont think much change is necessary or inherently more accurate. The Laz distribution seems weird to me, but I am not an expert on Caucasian peoples - with only minimal reading on modern day Dagestan, Chechnia, Ingushetia etc which are on the other side of the mountains lol. What changes would you make?
The Laz are a Kartvelian and predominantly Muslim people, mostly living in the eastern half of Rize and the coastal parts of Artvin (the interior of Artvin are Muslim Georgians, some from Batumi). They are related to Mingrelians or Megrelians (might be the same thing, but I always confuse those two words, though I am sure about the info itself) who live in coastal Georgia, and speak the same language, but are Christians. I've seen many Laz people tie themselves to Colchians, and the historical polity of Lazica is theirs too. It was around Rize and Artvin once again. Ottomans had a Lazistan sanjak that was also just Rize.They are very much endemic to that region. I've never heard of Laz that far west. Many Turkish people mistakenly refer to anyone from the Black Sea coast as a 'Laz', it's kind of a regional stereotype. Maybe that threw the developers off somehow? Or maybe there are Laz there and I am just ignorant.
 
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As a Kumanji Kurd myself i find the lack of my own culture... in the culture map mode to be very concerning to say the least with how abundant the Kurds have been pre (The you know whats happened.) To my people. I would personally believe the Kurdish population even as minorities mixed in with the Armenians should be more abundant. As currently the map gives me the impression that the Turks, Greeks and Armenians are the only dominant cultures in the region while the Kurdish population that has lived in that historic region for the beginning of their culture to be quite off putting personally. I don't want to bring modern politics into my point of course but it would be hard for me to avoid it when there may be many who would say very... iffy things.

While it comes to it I thought the difference to the southern and northern Armenians should be two different sub cultures no? But again for kurds I really hope to see my own people more prevalent in this game. I hope some of you see this and understand what I am thinking or saying as I struggle to word exactly how this makes me feel.

Also speaking of unique religions. Will we be seeing the inclusion of the Yazidism and Zoroastrianism Kurds? As Kurds are a mix of many religions that many would find surprising to say the least.

I am just curious to see more of a mix of the eastern side of Anatolia I hope this is helpful to anyone :D

(Bc of how new my account is it still does not let me post links which is very annoying sorry!)
 
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The Laz are a Kartvelian and predominantly Muslim people, mostly living in the eastern half of Rize and the coastal parts of Artvin (the interior of Artvin are Muslim Georgians, some from Batumi). They are related to Mingrelians or Megrelians (might be the same thing, but I always confuse those two words, though I am sure about the info itself) who live in coastal Georgia, and speak the same language, but are Christians. I've seen many Laz people tie themselves to Colchians, and the historical polity of Lazica is theirs too. It was around Rize and Artvin once again. Ottomans had a Lazistan sanjak that was also just Rize.They are very much endemic to that region. I've never heard of Laz that far west. Many Turkish people mistakenly refer to anyone from the Black Sea coast as a 'Laz', it's kind of a regional stereotype. Maybe that threw the developers off somehow? Or maybe there are Laz there and I am just ignorant.
Interesting i'll have to give them a little bit of research time at some point. Seems like an interesting community
 
As a Kumanji Kurd myself i find the lack of my own culture... in the culture map mode to be very concerning to say the least with how abundant the Kurds have been pre (The you know whats happened.) To my people. I would personally believe the Kurdish population even as minorities mixed in with the Armenians should be more abundant. As currently the map gives me the impression that the Turks, Greeks and Armenians are the only dominant cultures in the region while the Kurdish population that has lived in that historic region for the beginning of their culture to be quite off putting personally. I don't want to bring modern politics into my point of course but it would be hard for me to avoid it when there may be many who would say very... iffy things.

While it comes to it I thought the difference to the southern and northern Armenians should be two different sub cultures no? But again for kurds I really hope to see my own people more prevalent in this game. I hope some of you see this and understand what I am thinking or saying as I struggle to word exactly how this makes me feel.

Also speaking of unique religions. Will we be seeing the inclusion of the Yazidism and Zoroastrianism Kurds? As Kurds are a mix of many religions that many would find surprising to say the least.

I am just curious to see more of a mix of the eastern side of Anatolia I hope this is helpful to anyone :D

(Bc of how new my account is it still does not let me post links which is very annoying sorry!)
Which regions should be Kurdish in your opinion?
 
Will the Anatolian provinces also receive Greek names as for the localities ? It has always been weird in eu4 to play a byzantine Empire controlling the province of Hüdavendigar.
 
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Which regions should be Kurdish in your opinion?
I don't think the Kurdish core region should not be much larger but the clear lines showing the large kurdish minorities should be more spread out if you get what i mean! As Armenians and Kurds have long since lived in similar regions most clearly the divided between the north and southern Armenian dominant regions should have more kurdish blobs.

But the Kurds have long since been a dominant culture in the southern Caucasian mountains!
 
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That was causing undesired issues, as Johan has stated, so most probably not.

I hope you will reconsider that the spice trade was very important during this period.
why would I sail around the Cape of Good Hope all the way to the East Indies in search of spices that i could just get by colonizing the New World,
moreover obtaining a (near) monopoly on certain spices becomes impossible.

How I imagine spices would work is that pops have two needs for spices
1. quantity
2. diversity

where the first fulfills the basic need for spices and the second makes your pops incrementally happier the more different types of spices you have access to
 
Will the Anatolian provinces also receive Greek names as for the localities ? It has always been weird in eu4 to play a byzantine Empire controlling the province of Hüdavendigar.
I hope province names are dynamic in general
 
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