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Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

Hello everyone, and welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Maps! I am once again asking for your support back to the duty of showing a new region of the map of the super secret Project Caesar, which this week is Anatolia!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

A beautifully divided Anatolia! The disintegration of the Sultanate of Rûm in the 13th century, caused by the Mongol invasion, led to multiple Turkish Beyliks grabbing power over their area. Probably the strongest in 1337 is the Ottoman one, founded by the Turkoman leader Osman Ghazi, but there are other strong contenders such as the Eretnids, the Germiyanids, or the Karamanids, which will be fighting for hegemony over the region. You might also notice that the Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option] still holds a few positions in Anatolia, the most notable being the city of Philadelphia. Apart from them, other interesting countries in the region are the Despotate of Trebizond, held by the Komnenoi, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and, of course, The-country-known-in-another-IP-as-Hisn-Kayfa, the Ayyubid remnant in al-Jazira. And you might also notice some Genoese outposts, making them important players as well.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastic map is pretty straightforward, as a different dynasty rules each Beylik. We have fixed the issue with the random dynasty names, so no more weird 'the XXXX of XXXX' dynastic names anymore. To spice things up, we could maybe start a Byzantine discussion: Palaiologos, or Komnenos?

Locations:
Locations.jpg

As usual, please consider that dynamic location naming is not yet a thing in this region, and therefore the inconsistencies in the language used. As an additional note of caution, please don’t use the Aegean Islands as a reference or benchmark for comparison, as a review of them is something that we’ve got on our list of ‘to do’. You may be able to see that the location density in the region is gradual, from denser coastal regions to bigger inland ones.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain in Anatolia is quite interesting and unique, as it’s composed of very different features: the central Anatolian Plateau, with a colder climate and more sparse vegetation, is opposed to the rugged and more forested coastlines to the north and south, while only having fluvial flatlands to the west, and in Cilicia (an area that always has been a choke point between Anatolia and Syria. And to the east, the territory becomes increasingly more mountainous, as it approaches the Caucasus.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

We’re back to interesting religious divisions! We have in Anatolia Orthodox, Sunni, Miaphysite, and Nestorian pops. And if you wonder what are those pink stripes in Thrace, they are a Paulician minority.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

There are some interesting materials distributed all over Anatolia, such as Alum (which was a main export to Italy, usually handled by the merchant republics), Silk, Marble, or Copper. And if you’re wondering about the Spices, they were previously Saffron.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

The market centers of the region are Constantinople to the west, Trebizond to the north, and Damascus to the south. Nothing speaks against a Turkish Beylik conquering one or all of them, or creating a new market center, probably in the middle of the Anatolian Plateau, although probably it will require some infrastructure to make it fully functional.

Location and Country Population:
Pops Locations.jpg

Pops Country.jpg

And populations. Byzantium has some edge over each of the Beylikz, but not if they ally with each other, or if they ally with its Balkanic rivals… Also, have I heard about a 66K Ayyubid challenge?

That’s all for today! We’ll most likely be uploading the French feedback results by the end of next week or at the start of the following one (as next week there's an important bank holiday for this company, Midsommar St. John's Day, and some people will be on vacation a few days), and in the meantime, we'll also be reading and answering your feedback about Anatolia. And next Friday, we will be taking a look at Russia. See you then!

PS: I had a flight today that was delayed, therefore the delay on the DD until an (interesting) hour in which I'll be available for replying.
 
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Names are bothering me. Not Ottomanids but Karamanids? I don't know where the "ids" suffix comes from but probably from Greek and it doesnt make sense for Turkish Beyliks. Just make it Karamans. Menteşe, Eretna, Germiyans, Karasi, Saruhans, Aydin, Hamids, Candars etc. The first thing before I play this game will be to make a localization mod just for these names.
 
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I have divided the maps and Antep area in my previous message. Those town names on maps you provided are from the Ottoman sources you published, they are already old to now. Also, keep that in mind those some of those names are coming from in common Central Asian Turkic language.

Istanbul comes from Istan-bul. Istan is simply central asian term again. However, it's Turkified version of Constatinople, I don't know if it makes it fully Turkic name though. But this name of the city came to life after Nationalism spread happen to be in Ottoman Empire and changed with Mustafa Kemal Ataturk a lot later than the game focuses on.

Culture was never a loose concept, it's actually very important during those years. Even more important at the initial time frame than the later.

The name Istanbul has nothing to do with the Farsi suffix "-istan". Istanbul is a degenerate form of the phrase "stim Poli" (στὴν Πόλι) which literally means "to The City". It was used in older times as well, mainly for the wards of the city, in the sense of "Istanbul ili" today. Furthermore, Istanbul as offical name was given by the postal law in 1930's, and it was mainly changed as a means of legitimacy in the eyes of western powers.

I must add and make it clear though, between the city and its surroundings/province:
  • Istanbul province was called "Pay-i Taht" or "Kostantiniye"
  • The city was called "Dersaadet (house of joy)" or Istanbul or Asitane or even sometimes Islambol (referring to the fact that Rome is muslim now.)
Cabinet was called Bab-i Ali (sublime porte) and sometimes referred to Istanbul as a capital city in the realm; also informally, just like Asitane.
 
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Names are bothering me. Not Ottomanids but Karamanids? I don't know where the "ids" suffix comes from but probably from Greek and it doesnt make sense for Turkish Beyliks. Just make it Karamans. Menteşe, Eretna, Germiyans, Karasi, Saruhans, Aydin, Hamids, Candars etc. The first thing before I play this game will be to make a localization mod just for these names.
Because that is how English works. Ottomans are known as Ottomans in English, Karamanids are known as Karamanids in English. It makes perfect sense for Turkish beyliks because we are going by English demonyms. "Karamans" makes no sense whatsoever and sounds incorrect in English, and yes languages can be inconsistent in this regard. If you're going that far you might as well just use a mod to change it to Karamanoğullar.
 
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned earlier, but as I was working on some feedback on tradegoods in the Balkans, I found the following regarding Sebinkarahisar (near Trebizond):
Alum in Sebinkarahasir.PNG

Source: ALUM PRODUCTION AND ALUM TRADE IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE (ABOUT 1560—1830)

The mines in its vicinity had one of the biggest Alum-yields. Other mining sites were Maroneia (near Komotini), Foca, Milós and Kütaya (the mines at Gediz). But those got their correct Alum-tradegood already, or are not inside Anatolia.

So, in short: Please change the tradegood of Sebinkarahisar to Alum instead of Livestock. Also, I wonder why the locations of Bandirma and Palatli got Alum, too. But I might be missing something?

EDIT: It seems someone was one week earlier than me, and has suggestions for other regions around the world: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/on-the-history-of-alum-production-in-1337.1695578/
 
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I'm bookmarking the post to reply more consistently in a few days, as I prefer to check in detail with the content designers who worked in the region, and they'll be on vacation next week (there's a juicy bank holiday in Spain). But as a start, about number 3, it's an interesting suggestion; and, as I just answered in another post, the ruler (and his dynasty) is generated randomly, as we don't really know who could be.

Any news on this? I was reading through some sources, and it feels like there should be significantly more Mongols to showcase the tümens that were stationed in Anatolia and the Sutayids. The Sutayids being Mongol noyans in charge of atleast a tümen. A tümen of 10,000 soldiers, meaning perhaps 50,000 - 70,000 people in the Sutayids and more in the surrounding areas, dominated by the Oirats.

As to why I ask about Mongols and not Turkomans, is because it was mentioned that the distinction between the Turkish and Turkoman is primarily class-based, instead of ethnic. And Mongol identity would definitely still exist at this time, if slipping, as seen from the dissatisfaction of the Mongol Noyan elite of Abu Sa'ids break from tradition, and subsequent installation of the more traditional Arpa Ke'un after Abu Sa'ids death, as well as the Oirats existing as a distinct entity.

To add to this: "Mongol Empire and Its Legacy" (2000), discusses the winter and summer pastures and Mongol tümen distribution in Anatolia (And Diyarbakr) and the 30,000 - 40,000 families of Qara Tatars found by Timur. Qara Tatars often being the name used by outsiders to refer to the Mongols. By the time of Timur in 1402, these people had likely become majority Turcoman. But in 1337, Mongols should definitely make up a decent portion of the nomads in the mentioned regions.



First regarding Tümens. They were military units, but also were employed as population censuses (as done by Möngke in 1252-1259), not only of the Mongols, but also of the non-Mongols. A tümen of 10,000 would likely mean a population of atleast 50,000, with a conservative family size of 5.

Interestingly, this would mean that the army accompanied by Hülegu into the Middle-East, 17 tümens in all, meant a migration of around 850 000 Turkic/Mongol peoples, which would correspond with Möngke Khan's 1/5th redistribution of the nomadic Mongol forces to his brothers. Then add in Mongol garrisons based in the Middle-East preceding Hülegu's invasion.

"Mongol Manpower and Persian Population" (1975):

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"Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire" (2004):

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"Cambridge History of Turkey, Volume 1" (2009):

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"The Jalayirids: Dynastic State Formation in the Mongol Middle East" (2016):

Sutayids/Diyarbakir/Iraq
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"Mongol Empire and Its Legacy" (2000):

Sutayids/Diyarbakir
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Anatolia
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I can't really say as I don't know what types of subjects there are in Project Caesar and their degrees of autonomy, but would it not make sense to have the Eretnids and Sutayids start as autonomous subjects of the Jalayirids, with events to break free if Jalayirids lose against Gurgan or the Chobanids?

Both the Eretnids and Sutayids likely contributed men to the war against Ali Padshah and had a subordinate role to the Jalayirids, until Hasan Jalayir's power was curbed by the Chobanids and Gurgan, and Eretna started juggling loyalties between the rivals (and Mamluks).



From "The Jalayirids: Dynastic State Formation in the Mongol Middle East (2016)":

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"Cambridge History of Turkey, Volume 1" (2009):

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In this post I'll present my research for this region, mostly based on location names. I'm Turkish and there is a lot of Turkish sources about this region of course. The text is long, so I'll split it with spoilers.

There might be a need to adding more locations or reduce the number of locations, thats a whole another and a lot more detailed research topic when you take population, area at the time and through history, importance of the town etc. into consideration. And other than historical factors, its also (and more importantly in my opinion) is a matter of gameplay (like adding more locations makes the countries powerful etc.). So because of these reasons, I did not look/research for number/density of locations. Mostly just researched their names at the time.

Same applies for country borders/names/countries/cultures that needs to added-removed. Its also applies for "which town was more important so it should be the name/borders of the location" situation. I did and renamed most of the locations as "this town was more important at the time" but I'm not guaranteeing for every location/town. Current location names and numbers mostly gets along with 1530 Ottoman kazas-nahiyes names and number so I think devs did a good job.

Some names wasn't existed or being used in 1337 and later used, for example Bozok name, afaik it comes from a Turkmen tribe who settled in Bozok - Yozgat in 16th century. Before that there is like no information about the name of the area - town. So we have to use it.

I'll also post for Eastern and Southeastern Anatolia (in modern Turkey's definitions) which is not shown in the published map of the dev diary and I will publish them on that areas' own thread (Caucasus and Arabia I think?).

I can't post links as my account has low engagement I guess.. So I'll leave a space after https and dots, you need to copy, paste and delete that space to go to the link.

[Some images (because of high resolution) are not properly viewed in post, it writes View attachment in green text, I recommend to click and view them, they are very useful in my opinion.]

Many places in Anatolia had â,ā,û,ū,î,ī... in their names and also they could/were written as seperate (Beyşehri -> Bey Şehri or Bey-Şehri). I take them as joint. Idk the importance of this letters in other languages, but if its not important like in Turkish-Anatolia, I suggest you to not using them and just using a,u,i,ı instead. Because otherwise we will have unnecessary ornate (idk if its the right word) names-letters flying around the map. This might also make some things harder for players. Also if you go into this, then we need to find the exact correct wording (like if its Âlâşehir or Ālâşehir or Ālâ Şehir etc.).

Unlike others, only â/Â is being used in modern Turkish and it used rarely. There is no â/Â letter in Turkish alphabet, it used as circumflex and its rarely used. We use it as just "a/A". It can be used for distinguish homonymous words in Turkish like "kar and kâr (snow and profit)" or "hala and hâlâ (aunt and still)", but its mostly ignored and we just write kar and hala in both cases.

In Arabic sources, there is often use of -ye/-iye/-iyye and with "ı" for "i" and "a" for "e" versions. Especially we see this in Seljuks period. So in some historical records or in Nisanyan website there can be more close dates to 1337 (like 1333 for Ibn Battuta records, but he is also Arabic) but they mostly based in Arabic. For example, they call "Silifke" to "Selevkiye". Until Turkish alphabet reform in 1928, every Turkish sources recorded in Arabic alphabet. And in Arabic alphabet, some letters can be translated as various letters. For example, Arabic writing of "Develü" word can be retranslated back as "Develi/Davalı/Davalü/Devalu..."

images (7).png


My sources of Greek names of the cities nearly same as @Dieselface , most of the times its just few letters. I believe he knows Greek and Pontic better than me so I'm not interfering those letter differences. Just one thing is, as far as I saw the "í", "ó" letters and maybe others are basically same as "i" and "o" right? Like "â", "î" ≈ "a" and "i" in Turkish. If thats the case and this diacritics are often used in Project Ceaser in other languages too, than maybe we should use it in Turkish cultured location names too, Turkish shouldn't lag behind. But as in first paragraphes, I'm still suggesting a plain language for Turkish and other languages. But it should covered together in all languages. If it doesn't, than we might add "â", "î" etc.

I also very in favor for dynamic location names by culture mechanic. Not just for fun, but also for historical-alternative historical immersion. I currently writed those following names with starting situation at 1337 of which country controlling the location so what the name of location should be at the start. For example using Darson/Tarson instead of Tarsus in Armenian Cilician Kingdom. I think it should become Tarsus when a country with Turkish culture conquers it. It may also changes with the dominant culture in the location, but I'm not so sure about that in many aspects like coding, performance, player experience and it will be a decision of devs. I also might research for dynamic names instead of only starting names as what I wrote for this post. Like Greek, Latin, Armenian, Arabic names of the locations in Anatolia and/or Turkish names of the locations in Balkans and Arabia.

This post and my research mostly based on location names, but when I looked in province map mode I can easily see ,wrong/can named something else better (not just talking about basic spelling mistakes like Beysehir > Beyşehir), province names and province borders which should change. I'm currently lack of motivation about researching right/better province borders and names so I'll just pass the provinces part.

I am not an expert on the topic but for example in Sutayids, there are articles about the local Beys, tribes in the area. From what I see, Sutayids weren't so centralized and authorized country at the time. Besides, Aqkoyunlu and Karakoyunlu was quickly rised to power after Sutayids. There are writings about Aqkoyunlu while Sutayids were in power already. Army Based Country concept might fit for Sutayids instead of Settled Country but I don't know much about the difference between too.

Sutayid state were Mongol originated, idk which culture you guys will choose for them but I go with Turkish names on locations since probably there was little to none Mongolic names for areas they control and probably they used local names. Also even Sutayids were controlling those areas, there are still Turkic tribes' presence in many areas and not so much later they will fall and Turks will reconquer those locations in history and probably what would happen in game at most times.

I didn't look that specially but at some places I saw impassable areas is "missing" or they are just covering less area than it should be I think, and in some places it seems random and wrong (in the middle of the Arsuz-Artah-Antioch. I might be wrong but shouldn't that spesific area be plains and the impassable area should be in more west and south?). For example, Erciyes Mountain, the 5th longest mountain of Turkey is missing and the area it covers is splitted between two locations. And its not some long but small area mountian, the mountainous + uninhabitated, structureless area of there is bigger than some locations. And also I think maybe Sarıyahşi and Koçhisar needs to be inpassable between because of the mountains that seperates them. I think inpassable areas are great additions and I would like to see more.

In Cilican Armenia and some neighboring locations, I find location density is unnecessarily high in comparison to other areas of Anatolia. I'm in favor for higher location density, but its shouldn't be limited for a region. For instance, I think Enguzud location should removed if you'll keep other regions' location density same-similar. Its literally just contains a mountain and a few settlements maybe. Its saying there was 1-2 castles there in 13th century but we don't know anything about them today.

I think this because you guys based most of Cilicia to this map, I assume that because some location borders and especially location names inside and around Cilicia is exactly from there, some names are not available in Internet or just 1-2 sites but it is in the map, like C'Axud. Btw about this map, some letters are different than modern? Armenian names for same towns. For example, in most places, Tarsus city's Armenian name goes for Tarson, while in here it goes by Darson. That "t" - "d" exchange can be seen in other area in the map too. Idk if these for representing local-historical dialect for Armenian in Cilicia. Other than that, I find the map is very helpful and correct. I find the map splitted by two images, I also overlayed it on the location map:

hewcilw.png
hewcile.png


View attachment export202407121957261207.png

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Methodology and Sources:

1. 1520-1530 Ottoman records [this is the oldest of one of the most complete historical records of post-Turkish Anatolia. Its originally for tax reports, but it record every town, settlement, population of settlements, households, economic activity of towns and more. It also specifies the administrative divisions [eyalets, vilayets, sancaks, kazas, nahiyes (closest one for size of a location with kazas), towns]]. I got following maps from Turkey's official presidental state archives site, various PDFs and on internet (some of them from 15th and 16th century too). These made by experts as using those records' datas. There must be like 100 maybe even more for "liva" scoped ones but they're not really useful as they shows few nahiyes and every town/villages, and some ot them are from out of Anatolia, showing livas-sanjaks in Balkans, Arabia so not useful here, so i didn't searched and downloaded them all. 4 of them that I could find (which is in eyalet scope) is the most useful for location wise research. There is also i guess 5 more eyalet/vilayet scoped maps but I couldn't find ANYWHERE them on the internet. Not joking, I looked for everywhere, every PDF, every image in internet and spend like 25+ hours just for finding 2 images (Diyarbakır and Zülkadiriyye ones). They are in published books of those 1520-30 Ottoman records but not in PDF anywhere. For example, you can see 3 of them inside the book if you buy "muhâsebe-i vilâyet-i diyâr-i bekr ve 'arab ve zü'l-kâdiriyye defteri" book. If I could find those 2 eyalet images it would be easier for me and everyone for locating kazas and nahiye centers (which is the basically locations in Caesar) but we can find them manually in the records too.

I merged the ones i could find (eyalet-vilayet scoped ones) and overlayed on the location map. Here is them and the others (some can be duplicates):

Part 1: Part 2:
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Of course the records were in Ottoman alphabet (Arabic-Persian), so the Latinized translation of records made by experts again and published by official state archives institution of Turkey. So its same translation in whichever source you use to view those records.

So, there is numerous sources you can view those Ottoman records but here is the compilation of the vilayets-eyalets that we will use in Anatolia: ( https ://www. devletarsivleri. gov. tr/yayinlar/649a6751-e397-432d-8e3c-be4c2489562d. pdf , You can also use this site too: https ://osmanli1520. wordpress. com/ )

And in the page remember to do search in the page or scroll down and find the exact wording of the town, beacuse in the first pages site/PDF gives the nahiyes/center towns name and sometimes it can be as in modern name/writing of the town, the long texts below which also have the numbers of the town population and frequently uses "-" "," characters is the actual translation of Ottoman records to Latin alphabet and the exact name of the town. For example at the first paragraphes where they lists the main towns, they can write as "Karahisar-ı Demirli", but below it wrotes "Kara-hisār-i Demirlü" which is the actual name and we would use it as "Karahisar-ı Demirlü".]

2. www. nisanyanyeradlari. com , this site one of the most complete and largest etymology database of places of Anatolia and neighboring areas in Turkish. Its one of the number one places to go for searching an Anatolian (it also includes Armenia and some Balkans) place's old name for a time frame in the history. It collects and publish from numerous sources. Even Wikipedia and official websites of towns' in Turkey quotes from this site. You can just write modern new or any old name of the settlement in search bar or find it from the map in the website to view historical names and descriptions of the settlement.

3. https ://islamansiklopedisi. org. tr/ and Wikipedia (in Wikipedia, I also look to English and Greek/Armenian/Arabic/Georgian versions of related page of settlement aside from just Turkish. First website has also very very good and detailed informations.)

4. Osmanlı yer adları PDF (this is also an experts' work and published by Turkey's official presidental state archives) : https ://www. devletarsivleri. gov. tr/varliklar/dosyalar/eskisiteden/yayinlar/genel-mudurluk-yayinlar/osmanli_yer_adlari. pdf

5. Historical and modern PDFs, articles, theses related to settlement

Settlements'/Towns'/Cities' official website for information of their history

The rest of the sources/texts on the Internet

I'm trying to explain reasons of a location's name change I did but I don't do it in every one because it would take dozens of texts which I would have trying to explain every reason, sources, the part of text in the source (which is 90% time its in Turkish). And sometimes I gather information from like 7 sources and than I would need to write all that and the conclusion I made, which will be in English and not my native language. So it would take so much time, motivation and texts. I couldn't do that. If you copy the old/new names of locations I wrote in this text and paste it to search bar in www. nisanyanyeradlari. com or search it in Google or search it in that Ottoman records site/PDF/Osmanlı yer adları PDF or look at the maps of the town, you would understand the reasons of most of them. If someone ask for reason of a name change, I'll happily explain it.

In some changes I might explain, give sources and in some changes I didn't. This is not because I researched some of them a lot and some of them a little. I just think an explanation is good for some or at the moment I write it writing and explanation and adding source is no effort for me so I do it. There are some single locations and subjects I researched for hours, days and not writing an explanation, giving source or at the end I see it aligns with the current setup and no need for a change so I don't write it.

You can search for old Armenian place names in here: https ://tib. oeaw. ac. at/tib-register/tib5

Sources for some Turkish location names in Ar-Raqqah, Mardin, Nusaybin and Mosul provinces:

http ://nek. istanbul. edu. tr:4444/ekos/TEZ/50628. pdf

https ://dergipark. org. tr/en/download/article-file/3417181

Before diving into location names, few things I came across while researching:

Hacıemirids (country name) > Bayramids / Bayramlu

Hacıemiroğulları (dynasty name) > Bayramoğulları

(Originally Hacıemiroğulları Beyliği founded by Bayram Bey and its often referred as Bayramlu Beyliği, Bayramoğulları Beyliği. Hacı Emir Bey which is the origin of Hacıemiroğulları name, he became ruler in 1356)

Tacettinids (country name) > Taceddinids

Tacettinoğulları (dynasty name) > Taceddinoğulları

Sahibids (country name) > Sahib Ataids

Sâhipataoğulları (dynasty name) > Sahib Ataoğulları

Menemen location was being controlled by Saruhanids and afaik Aydinids never controlled there.

Mengucekoğlu (dynasty name) > Ahis (idk where Mengucekoğlu comes from)

Menteşe (dynasty name) > Menteşeoğulları

did you make Kubadids dynasty name to Al-e Saljuq because the founder of the country (Taceddin Altunbaş) is grandson of II. İzzeddin Keykâvus? I'm not sure if it still fits since Seljuks dismantled and Taceddin Altunbaş and his family has no influence in history about his ancestry. Maybe renaming it to Kubadoğulları makes more sense. Though having a Seljuq dynasty can be flavorful for restoring Seljuq Empire for example.

Also afaik Al-e means dynasty in Persian so thats a nice addition but I'm not sure since its 1337, its Anatolia etc... Maybe removing that Al-e and another form of Saljuq like Selçuklular, Selçukoğulları, Seljuks, Saljuqs idk maybe it fits more.

I think Teke country name is good (which is the current setup) instead of Tekeids. Because it was founded by Hamidids and Teke was the name of the area, not a family.

Idk you guys keep country names by English alphabet though there is Dilmaçids and Menteşeids with "ç" and "ş". If you will use other than English alphabet, than some country names in Anatolia seems wrong. Also nearly all of Turkish beyliks in Anatolia ends with -oğulları/-lar/-lı/-lılar Beyliği. If you go with -ids, they should be as:

Aydinids > Aydınids

Inancids > İnançids

Sahibids > Sahib Ataids

Ayyubids can and maybe should renamed as Heskif - Hisn Kifa Emirate or something another: https ://en. m. wikipedia. org/wiki/Emirate_of_Hasankeyf (I recommend to check and translate in other languages of wiki page). I guess it also called Mîrektiya Melîkan which means Kingdom of Angels In Kurdish I think.

There is many Karahisars at the time, and currently some "Karahisar-ı ..." named locations just called Karahisar but/so "Karahisar-ı ..." use is suitable for removing confusion, which what they did in official Ottoman records.

"Şehir" (city) word in Turkish is from şehr/şahr in Persian. There is letters for "i" in Arabic/Persian/Ottoman Turkish alphabet but they didn't used it for example writing "Akçaşehir" back then. It was "Akçaşehr". And as far I see, it applied to every "şehir" word in Seljuks/Ottomans (until 20th century afaik), and in modern Turkish today, şehr is easier to read rather than şehir. In many Turkish regional accents, today they spell it as şehr only, which was probably the thing back then at everwhere, in Old Turkish. "Şehir" form is mostly what we called "Istanbul Turkish", a modern version of Turkish. And in modern Turkish, both in informal speaking and in formal writing, when you add an affix to şehir word, a vowel reduction happens and it be as = şehir + e > şehre, şehir + i > şehri. Also in old Turkish writings (translated from Arabic alphabet of course), we see they mentioning Beyşehir, Seydişehir and so on as "Beğşehr'e, Seydişehr'e" (its an example in a sentence, the "-e" is affix here, which means "to Beğşehr, to Seydişehir). Vowel reduction only happens in common nouns, not in proper names/nouns. So it should been like "Beğşehir'e, Seydişehir'e", but its not, which means the correct writing is Beğşehr and Seydişehr. So in conclusion, converting "-şehir,-şehri" names to "-şehr" would be the accurate decision both in terms of spelling and formal writing back then.

Something I saw while researching was the borders of the Trebizond country. Idk how did you guys draw those borders and which sources you used but as far as I can search in Turkish and English sources, its not really certain that who controls those areas (Ordu, Ünye, Terme, Gümüşhane) at the time. But something caught my attention: https ://en. m. wikipedia. org/wiki/Limnia_(Pontus) (you can also check Turkish and Greek version of the page), it writes in 1297 Trebizond emperor John II died in Limnia (modern Tekkeköy) and as 1317 one Callistus been able to reside in Limnia but he couldn't enter Amasiea (Amasya) because Turks doesn't permit him to enter. Also, Hacıemiroğulları captured Ordu in 1380s and moved their capital there, before that the capital was in Mesudiye. Also most of the maps for that time shows the following locations at the control of Trebizond Empire. With all of this and other sources I read, my conclusion that Trebizond Empire were controlling Ordu, Ünye, Terme and probably Akkus locations at the 1337.

I also doubted about borders because the current one looks like its directly copied from EU4's 1444 borders.

I think there is need to creating of Samtskhe Atabegate as vassal of Georgia. They become vassal of Georgia in 1334. Also I guess Khupati and Rize location goes to Samtskhe / Georgia. I recommend to reading Georgian and Turkish version of the pages alongside English.

Map–Principality_of_Samtskhe_till_c.1325–ka.svg.png


https ://en. m. wikipedia. org/wiki/Samtskhe-Saatabago

I really recommending translating and reading the following articles because it has more info:

https ://ka. m. wikipedia. org/wiki/%E1%83%92%E1%83%9D%E1%83%9C%E1%83%98%E1%83%9D%E1%83%A1_%E1%83%AA%E1%83%98%E1%83%AE%E1%83%94

https ://ka. m. wikipedia. org/wiki/%E1%83%92%E1%83%A3%E1%83%A0%E1%83%98%E1%83%98%E1%83%A1_%E1%83%9B%E1%83%AE%E1%83%90%E1%83%A0%E1%83%94

here is an screenshot from a very unrelated subject's thesis in 1993 in Turkish that which in a part it tells the historical summary of the area, that confirms the granting of Lazestan to Samtskhe Atabegate as in Wikipedia. (full link to PDF, click PDF icon on top left, https ://tez. yok. gov. tr/UlusalTezMerkezi/tezDetay.jsp?id=61JElTwsf9RsFKF8Y4tTvw&no=61JElTwsf9RsFKF8Y4tTvw )

Screenshot_20240828_060741_Drive.png


Also from what I saw, this video is very good too: https ://youtu. be/mkdbZzYg1Vc

There is definitely sources that I forgot and lost that confirms Samtskhe Atabegate and transfer of Khupati and Rize locations to Samtskhe. But I can say I'm confident about the changes I suggested regarding western and eastern borders of the Trebizond Empire.

Also I really think you should create a new location on Rize with the name of Athína (modern Pazar city in Turkey).

I'll also post these when Caucasus version of Tinto Maps posted too.

Some maps I found and liked (I recommend going to first one's link, the author of map, I believe, he deleted his account but in comments he replies as he used Anthony Bryer's book for source. Western borders align with my conclusion, eastern borders would require transferring Rize, but not Khupati. I belive Rize should be transferred too) (2. one is from an Turkish Instagram account named @ kerotes , he got very good and detailed maps, in his post he also showed Genoese colonies in the Black Sea region which I didn't saw and researched so I don't know if them correct, he drew Dilmaçids which is unusual and mostly skipped in maps so I liked that too, though Dilmaçids borders in 1337 was less than that as I will mention below):

images - 2024-08-28T050705.067.jpeg


https ://www. reddit. com/r/MapPorn/s/hhueLGicf0

kerotes2024_08_26_23_18_16304f2ae2-b1e3-4cb6-94ff-20d6ab6babd6.jpg


https ://www. instagram. com/p/C2HLOfmsXz7/?igsh=MTg2M2wxdGQxbXI2aQ==

Dulkadirids were vassal of Mamluks and they weren't controlling Malatya, Eretnids were controlling it. https ://islamansiklopedisi. org. tr/malatya , https ://isamveri. org/pdfdrg/D03921/2016_9/2016_9_AKCADAGG. pdf , https ://www. academia. edu/44882585/Orta_%C3%87a%C4%9Fda_Malatya_1_

Dulkadirids captures Geben Kalesi (in Kapan location currently) in 1345 from Armenians, which could mean in 1337 Armenian Cilicia holds Kapan location. https ://www. marastaedebiyat. com/templates/yayinlar/maras-tarihi. pdf , https ://www. marastaedebiyat. com/templates/yayinlar/dulkadiroglu-beyligi-arastirmalari-1. pdf

Current Dilmaçids borders in Project Caeser looks good. Here is this PDF about Dilmaçids which is very good in my opinion: https ://isamveri. org/pdfsbv/D00142/2002_12/2002_12_CEVIKA. pdf

In the PDF, it writes that at the time Bitlis controlled by Şerafeddin Ebu Bekr which is Şerefoğulları. I searched about that, and Omerî writed that as far as I could find (screenshot below, from another PDF). And later in 16th century, Şerefname writer 4th Şeref Han becomes the Emir of Bitlis.

Screenshot_20240901_082439_Drive.png


So I think a Kurdish principality of Bitlis named Şerefids can be added to Bitlis and maybe Tatvan location (I'm not sure who controls Tatvan at the time), but not Ahlat. In the PDF I shared its link above and in here https ://islamansiklopedisi. org. tr/ahlat , it writes Ahlat controlled by Sutayids at the time.

I'm not sure about dynasty name, since -oğulları is Turkish and not Kurdish. Şerefids for dynasty name too can be used I think.

If you'll make Ayyubids Arabic, then afaik there is no Kurdish cultured country at the start of the game so I think Şerefids would be a nice addition.

Location name changes:

export202408262120369149.png


Locations I checked:
1000318300.png


Biga province:

Ayvacık > Tuzla

Bandirma (correct writing is Bandırma) > Aydıncık (Aydıncık was more important town at the time)

Bayramiç > Ezine (Bayramiç was a small town at the time, Ezine was the center of kaza.)

Biga > Pigaí (by @Dieselface) Because Byzantine controls it, Biga is Turkish

Çanakkale > Dardanel/Dardanelya [it was Kale-i Sultaniye after 1462 (which is named after a castle built there at the same year, so i don't think its appropriate to use that name at the start of 1337), but before that there is like no information about the name of the town. Dardanellia was the name of the Çanakkale Boğazı, and at some texts its used as referring to the city, also there is places with the word Dardanel/Dardanelya in their names in Çanakkale in todays, so i think it would fit for location name.]

Lapseki > Lapsekü


Karasi province:

Balıkesir > Balıkesri

Edremit > Edremid

Soma > Tarhala

Susurluk > Kebsud


Saruhan province:

Demirci > Demürci

Foça > Focea (its in Italian, because the location controlled by Genoese)

Gördes > Gördos

Manisa > Mağnisa


Smyrna province:

Ayasuluk > Ayasluğ

Smyrna > İzmir (Smyrna is Greek, İzmir is Turkish also Ibn Battuta called it İzmir at 1333 and the Ottoman archives writes it as İzmir)


Aydin province:

Alaşehir > Filadélfeia (from @Dieselface)

Nazilli > Kestel


Muğla province:

Bodrum > İsravalos (Bodrum was not an important place or big city at the time, İsravalos were also center of the kaza)

Gökabat (correct one is Gökabad) > Ula (it was center of kaza and probably a bigger city)

Marmaris > Marmaros

Meğri > Mekri

Tavas > Davaz (Tavas was and still official name but Davaz was and still with local accent, I would go with Davaz, it makes it more immersive in my opinion)

Yüksekkum > Köyceğiz


Antalya province:

Elmalı > Elmalu

Istanoz > İstanos

Kaş > Andifli


Hamid province:

Dinar > Geyikler

Eğridir > Eğridür

Uluborlu > Borlu (Borlu renamed as Uluborlu in Ottomans)


Usak province:

Gediz > Gedüs

Honaz > Honas (s became z later)

Lazkiye > Tonguzlu (Lazkiye was administrative division on Ottomans while Tonguzlu was the name of the city even before)

Şeyhli > Şeyhlü


Kütahya province:

Aslanapa > Arslanapa

Domaniç > Hisar/Hisarköy

Emet > Eğrigöz


Hüdavendigâr province:

Atranos > Adranos

Dursunbey > Balat / Balatlar [1530 Ottoman records uses Balatlar name which means plural Balat (like "Balats" in English), other than it mentioned as Balat everywhere, Balatlar can fit more for not confusing with Balat in Aydin province]


Kocaeli province:

Adapazari (correct writing is Adapazarı) > Ada (its the actual one but if you don't want it to be so short, you can rename it to Adaköy too)

İzmit > İznikmid

Şile > Şili

Üsküdar > Skoutárion (from @Dieselface)


Sultanönü province:

Eskişehir > Eskişehr

İnegöl > Eynegöl

Nallıhan > Nallu

Söğüt > Söğüd


Karahisar province:

Altıntaş > Altuntaş

Emirdağ > Barçınlu (Barçınlu town the center of nahiye so it must be more important)

Karahisar-ı Sâhib > Karahisar-ı Sahib

Sandıklı > Sandıklu

Seyitgazi > Seyyidgazi

Şuhut > Şuhud


Beysehir province:

Akşehir > Akşehr

Beyşehir > Beğşehr

Seydişehir > Seydişehr

Şarkikaraağaç > Karaağaç


Alaiye province:

Manavgat > Manavgad

Selinti > Selendi


Içel province:

Ermenek > İrmenek

Mut > Mud


Konya province:

Çeltik > Turgud

Ereğli-i Karaman > Ereğli

Ilgın > Yılğun (ılgın word's old Turkish version is yılgun/yılğun, in 1520 Ottomans archive city mentioned as Ilgun, in 1484 mentioned as Yılğun)

Ladik > Saideli

Pirloganda > Pirlavganda


Niğde province:

Bekarlar > Melegübü


Aksaray province:

Insuyu > İnsuyu

Koçhisar > Koşhisar


Ankara province:

Ankara > Engürü ( detailed explanation here: https ://tr. m. wikipedia. org/wiki/Ankara_(isim) )

Beypazarı > Beğpazarı

Çubuk > Çubukabad

Haymana > Ayaş

Kıbrıscık > Kıbrus

Kızılcahamam > Yabanabad

Mihalıççık > Mihaliçlık

Polatlı > Poladlu

Sivrihisar > Sifrihisar


Bolu province:

Akçakoca > Akçaşehr

Amasra > Amastri / Amastris (Italian/Greek I guess? Genoese controlling it)

Bolu > Boli

Düzce > Konrapa

Gerede > Geredi

Karadeniz Ereğli > Ereğlü

Mudurnu > Mudurni

Safranbolu > Borli


Kastamonu province:

Boyabat > Boyabad

Inebolu > İneboli

Kastamonu > Kastamoni

Küre-ı Mamure > Küre

Sinop > Sinob


Çankiri province:

Çankırı > Kengırı


Çorum province:

Çorum > Çorumlu

İskilip > İskilib

Sungurlu > Budaközü


Bozok province:

About Balışeyh and Dinek Keskin location: Both area of these two locations called "Keskin/Keskün". Look at the map (map is from 1840 and independent from the PDF ( https ://dergipark. org. tr/en/download/article-file/114257 )] and the text below. It says in 16th century that area was splitted between neighbouring sancaks - kazas - nahiyes which named "Kalecik Keskini" and other part is to "Keskin" which often called "Dinek Keskini". Also in other Ottoman maps you can see those two locations splitted between Kırşehir, Kengiri and a little part of that in Bozok sancaks. As in PDF said, the two locations were both called Keskin but it was splitted to two and upper one called "Kalecik Keskini" and the lower one called "Dinek Keskini", so:

Balışeyh > Kalecik Keskünü

Dinek Keskin > Dinek Keskünü

images - 2024-08-17T194543.338.jpeg


Screenshot_20240817_193149_Drive.png

Sorgun > Sorkun


Kirşehir province:

Hacıbektaş > Hacım (Hacıbektaş name given later, there was Hacım town at the time)

Kirşehir (correct writing is Kırşehir) > Kırşehr

Nevşehir > Uçhisar [Nevşehir (Muşkara at the time) was a town in Uçhisar nahiye at the time]

Sarıyahşi > Eyyüb [Sarıyahşi doesn't appear in Ottoman registers or before, instead modern Ortaköy (which is old name is Eyyüb-Eyyübeli comes from Eyyüb İli which means Eyyüb Province-) was more important town and it was nahiye and controlling that area]

Ürgüp > Ürgüb


Kayseri province:

Comana (Comana was an antique city) > Mağara

Karahisar-ı Develi > Develü


Sis province:

you can use Tsaxud instead of C'axud too

Pozanti (correct Turkish writing is Pozantı) > Podandos


Tarsus province:

Corycus > Gorigos

Çandir (correct Turkish writing is Çandır but you probably made it Çandir because of Çandır in Bozok province) > Paperon

Tarsus > Darson


Adana province:

Toprakkale > İskenderun [Arabic and Turkish name for it is same, so it fits in Mamluks and any other Turkish rule. Or Bayas for representing Payas, which were with İskenderun they more important cities than T'il Hamdun (modern Toprakkale).]


Antakya province:

Antioch > Antakiya (Arabic). Antakya for Turkish cultured countries.

Artah > Irtah (Arabic)

Idlib > al-Shughr (Idlib was a small town at the time afaik)

Afrin (Ifrin would be more correct) > Jabal al-Akrad (Afrin name wasn't exist for the area at the time, just for river nearby. http ://www. bilalaksoy. com/tarihte-afrin-adi-ve-kokeni , https ://en. m. wikipedia. org/wiki/Kurd_Mountain . Also I highly suggesting adding Kurdish culture to location, since it called Kurd Mountain even back then and currently inhabited by Kurds.)


Ayntab province:

You can remove Dluk location and merge with Ayntab. It has little to none importance at the time afaik. You probably create it from Armenian Cilicia map. https ://en. m. wikipedia. org/wiki/D%C3%BCl%C3%BCk if you keep it than name should be:

Dluk (its Armenian) > Duluk (Arabic, Mamluks controls it)

Trapessac > Darb al-Sakk, its Arabic (Derbisak in Turkish)


Kadirli province:

Anavarza > Anarzaba

Kapan > Andırın / Geben [Andırın was the name of the nahiye and center of it, while Geben (Kapan) was also a important town and was the center of Andırın nahiye at some point of the history too. Andriun / Gaban if it will transfer to Armenian Cilicia.]

Ulnia > Zeytun (it was in Turkish cultured Dulkadirids so it should be Turkish)


Maraş province:

Besni > Behisni

Enguzud > Engizek

Kaysun > Keysun


Malatya province:

Samsat > Samsad


Divrigi province:

Arapgir > Arabkir

Divriği > Difriği


Sivas province:

Dasmenda (its Byzantine name, not Turkish) > Pınarbaşı (it was Pınarbaşı back then too, though I think you guys might be interested in looking for Zamantı too, it was an important area and castle at the time and later in Ottomans. Though it would probably needs to redraw location-province borders and renamings, you can translate this article: DULKADİRLİ DEVLETİNDE ZAMANTI VE KAYSERİ BÖLGESİNİN ÖNEMİ / S.Burhanettin AKBAŞ .)

Deliktaş > Kankallı ( https ://www. academia. edu/95258755/Mezraadan_Kasabaya_Kangal%C4%B1n_Do%C4%9Fu%C5%9Fu_ve_Geli%C5%9Fimi )

Gemerek > Çubuk

Şarkışla > Gedük [Şarkışla (Şehr-i Kışla at the Ottoman times) was just a town at the area while Gedük was the name of the nahiye]

Zara > Çirkün


Amasya province:

Aydıncık > Kızıl Künbed (Eskiköy was the center town of Kızıl Künbed nahiye but since its just a town and nahiye is the approximate area of a location, it would fit more.)

Akdağmadeni > Akdağ

Gadegara > Köprü

Koyulhisar > Koyluhisar

Lâdik > Ladik

Merzifon > Mersivan

Sonisa > Sonusa

Sulusaray (was Salursaray at the time) > Artukabad (Artukabad was the name and the center of nahiye for many centuries so it must be a more important town)


Çanik province:

Akkus > "Kainón Chorión (Nearest ancient city)" (from @Dieselface, I couldn't find anything about or near Akkus about Greek too. There is also Kevgir Kalesi which is more popular but it has no Greek name I could found.)

Mesudiye > Milas / Melet (Milas location name also being used in Aydin province. Milas was main name of Mesudiye at the time but it writes Melet river's name was sometimes used as administrative unit back then and I found some folks in Mesudiye calls Mesudiye and Melet names together so I think it would fit, much more than a name that given by state in 1928.)

Ordu > "Kotýora" (from @Dieselface)

Terme > Limnía

Ünye > "Oinói" (from @Dieselface)


Trebizond province:

@Dieselface created a topic of Greek Dynamic Names Suggestions - Anatolia, so I quote from him for Trebizond locations (as Trebizond was Pontic Greek/Greek and owning these locations at the start):

TREBIZOND PROVINCE (Gr. Chaldía/Lazikí/Trapezoús Province)
Giresun = Kerasoús (ancient/formal) or Kerasoúnta* (modern/vernacular)
Gümüşhane = Tzántzakon or Tzánicha or Argyroúpolis
Görele = Kóralla or Kordýli
Trebizond = Trapezoús (ancient/formal) or Trapezoúnta* (modern/vernacular)
Sürmene = Soúrmena
Rize = Rizaíon or Rizoúnta*
Khupati = Chópa or Anakopía

* RE: Vernacular Placeames
General note about Pontic placenames, I included the vernacular versions of the "-oúnta" placenames mainly to show how the Turkish and often even Western versions of the city names evolved. Additionally, the vernacular versions were indeed how everyday Greeks referred to those places both in the modern day and in the late Middle Ages. Personally, I would still go with the formal versions as those are what the Byzantines and other Greek states would most likely use in official writing.

One thing I must say in my opinion, I would go with vernacular / Pontic names instead of Ancient Greek names unlike @Dieselface said he would like to Ancient Greek names. I think we should represent the 1337 situation. Also Pontic culture is in the game currently which probably the country culture of Trebizond country. Maybe when Byzantine or other Greek (and not Pontic) cultured country conquers that locations, it can be turn to their original/ancient Greek names. But at the start and with Pontic cultured countries, I'm very in favor of using vernacular names. So it should be like this:

Giresun > Kerasoúnta

Tirebolu / Trípolis was probably more important city than Görele. We can see that on old Ottoman maps (David Rumsey map collection), mostly only Tripolis shown and not Görele on those maps, so I suggest:

Görele > Trípolis

Torul was the nahiye in 1486 and later became kaza in first half of the 16th century. Gümüşhane was a town named Canca and we see it became kaza in 17th century and no nahiye/kaza status before that. And in some foreign (not Turkish-Ottoman) maps I only saw Ardasa. So i guess Torul / Ardasa was more important place at the time, so my suggestion is:

Gümüşhane > Ardasa

Sürmene > Soúrmena

Trebizond > Trapezoúnta

in modern Georgian sites it writes Hopa as Khopa, though some old maps writes as Khupati. In Nisanyan it Xupati / Xopati / Xopca is in Georgian, which X can be used in Kh, at least in Georgian as far I saw. So Khupati name can stay.

Rize stay as Rize as in Georgian its same, though in Internet it writes "Rizini" is for Laz language, idk if Samtskhe Atabegate be in Laz culture or Georgian and the sound basis of "Rizini" word.

I really think you should create a new location on Rize with the name of Athína (modern Pazar city in Turkey).


Erzurum province:

Bayburt > Bayburd

İliç > Poşadı

Kelkit > Kelkid

Şiran > Şiryan


Harput province:

Adakli (correct writing is Adaklı) > Kiğı

Bingöl > Çapakçur

Çemişgezek > Çemişkezek

Harput > Harpurt

Kuzuçan > Kızuçan

Sivrice founded in 1936. There was Gölcük-i Süfya nahiye in 1530 but it was so small and unimportant. In other maps that area shown inside the Harput directly, so my suggestion is merging Sivrice to Harput location. If you will keep it, rename it as Gölcük. Süfla means lower, there was also Gölcük-i Ulya which Ulya means upper. And Gölcük was the name of the neighboring lake.


Diyar Bakr province:

Diyarbakir (correct writing is Diyarbakır) > Amid

Hazro > Tercil

Savur is Turkish, if you take Ayyubids as Arabic, than it should be Ṣawr / Sawr. If you take them Kurdish, then it can be Stewr.


Ar Ruha province:

Birecik > Bira / al-Bira (Arabic)

Çermik > Çermük

Suruç > Seruc

Urfa > Ruha (Urfa name wasn't used until late Ottomans, Ruha is also Arabic so it fits Mamluks)


Ar-Raqqah province (part of):

Araban is ok

Makisin is ok (its off the Anatolia map but visible in other map and since it belongs to Artuklu which is Turkish cultured, I wanted to check it)

I didn't check others since its off from Anatolia map.


Mardin province:

Al-Hasakah > Haseke (Turkish, because Artuklu controls it)

Al-Tunanir > Tüneynir

Kızıltepe > Düneysir

Ras al-Ayn > Rasülayn

Viranşehir > Viranşehr


Mosul (name not seen on the map, I guess its Mosul) province (part of):

Sinjar > Sincar

I didn't check others since its off from Anatolia map.


Nusaybin province (part of):

Bara > Barabaya

Barqa'id > Berkaid

Cizre > Cezire

Midyat > Midyad

Nusaybin is ok

I didn't check others since its off from Anatolia map.


Hasankeyf province:

Hasankeyf is Turkish, If you take Ayyubids as Arabic, than the proper Arabic name would be Hisn Kifa

If you take Ayyubids as Kurdish, then rename location to Heskîf / Heskif. I would go by Heskif beacuse like in first paragraphes in the post î doesn't really make a difference of i in Kurdish (afaik) like in Turkish.

Kozluk > Hazo

Kulp > Kulb

Mayyafariqin > Meyyafarikin

Siirt > Siird

Sason wasn't a kaza or nahiye, it was a town in Tatik nahiye (though center of Tatik nahiye was in Ribat/Kavakbaşı afaik which is in behind mountains so keep the Sason name, in 1530 records its Sason too), though its small and has plateau while neighboring areas is mountains, so it can be stay as location. Or it can be merged with Kozluk because whole the area often called Hazo together. So I'm not sure if its in Eretna rather than Dilmaçids. After looking geographical view of the area, you see its connected to Kozluk and its seperated with Kulp by Zori Çayı / Zori River. Kozluk and Sason is also in same province (Batman) while Kulp in Diyarbakır in today too. So I'm mostly sure that Sason was controlled by Dilmaçids rather than Eretnids. I would give the location to Dilmaçids unless you guys have a source that says otherwise.


Bitlis province (part of):

If you transfer Bitlis location to Şerefids country with Kurdish origin, then change it to Bedlis which is Kurdish. If it stays in Sutayids, make it Bidlis.

Muş is ok

I didn't check others since its off from Anatolia map.


Van (name not seen on the map, I guess its Van) province (part of):

If you transfer Tatvan location to Şerefids country with Kurdish origin, then change it to Tetwan which is Kurdish. If it stays in Sutayids, keep it Tatvan.

I didn't check others since its off from Anatolia map.


Malazgirt (name not seen on the map fully, I guess its Malazgirt) province (part of):

Tekman > Tatos (Tatos is Armenian, which from other maps I believe currently Armenia holds the location)

Pasinler > Paseank (Paseank is Armenian)

Varto is ok

Hınıs is ok

I didn't check others since its off from Anatolia map.


Ciildir province (part of):

Artanuji is ok

can't see if its Ispir or İspir, but the correct one is İspir

Oltu > Oltisi / Oltis (Georgian)

Tortum > Tortomi (Georgian)

can't see, if its Panaskerti then its correct

Parkhali is ok

I didn't check others since its off from Anatolia map.


Samegrelo (name not seen on the map fully, I guess its Samegrelo) province (part of):

Batumi is ok

I didn't check others since its off from Anatolia map.

@Pavía
 
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@racnes a very good suggestion, but I'd still opt for keeping Gümüşhane. While it became a Sanjak around midway through the game's timeframe, it was also an important mining centre of the region. That's also why it has the Silver-tradegood. That should count for something, too.
 
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No Shia in Anatolia? Or Sufi? Or Druze?

The Ottomans by Marc David Baer makes a good case for their being a much lot looser line between Shia and Sunni until after the printing press let the Persians and Ottomans started codifying what the differences were (and rooting out heresy).

For example the Janissaries marched under a traditional banner which said "No hero but Ali, no sword but Zulfikar" (very Shia).

Reading about Hadji Bektash or the Babai Revolt reinforces the view that there was less Sunni conformity in Anatolia in 1337.
 
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No Shia in Anatolia? Or Sufi? Or Druze?

The Ottomans by Marc David Baer makes a good case for their being a much lot looser line between Shia and Sunni until after the printing press let the Persians and Ottomans started codifying what the differences were (and rooting out heresy).

For example the Janissaries marched under a traditional banner which said "No hero but Ali, no sword but Zulfikar" (very Shia).

Reading about Hadji Bektash or the Babai Revolt reinforces the view that there was less Sunni conformity in Anatolia in 1337.

Shi'ism in Anatolia was mostly tied to Alevism, which was very heterodox and syncretic of both Sunni and Shi'a stuff, some especially in Eastern Anatolia were a lot more Shi'a and those later followed Shah Ismail and Safavids. That's the case with Bektashi order Janissaries followed, it was quite syncretic between Sunni and Shia.

However I agree in general there should be a lot more religious diversity and heterodoxy in Anatolia, but that should 95% be Alevism rather than Shi'a proper. Most importantly, it should be because of heterodox religious trends in Anatolia (and Iran). Both of these only became more Orthodox in 16th century with reforms of Suleiman and Sheikh-ul-Islam Ebussuud Efendi in Ottoman Empire and Shah Ismail forcefully converting Iran to Shi'a Islam and that later also becoming more Orthodox Shi'a during reign of Tahmasp under supervision of an orthodox Shi'a clergy from Iraq.

Sufi is not a sect and should not at all be represented as such. It's a tradition of practice and was fairly common among Orthodox Sunni. Less so with Shi'a.
 
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I think this because you guys based most of Cilicia to this map, I assume that because some location borders and especially location names inside and around Cilicia is exactly from there, some names are not available in Internet or just 1-2 sites but it is in the map, like C'Axud. Btw about this map, some letters are different than modern? Armenian names for same towns. For example, in most places, Tarsus city's Armenian name goes for Tarson, while in here it goes by Darson. That "t" - "d" exchange can be seen in other area in the map too. Idk if these for representing local-historical dialect for Armenian in Cilicia. Other than that, I find the map is very helpful and correct. I find the map splitted by two images, I also overlayed it on the location map:
The difference between how certain letters are transliterated (like "t" or "d") depends on whether it is transliterated from Western (Mostly spoken in Anatolia, Middle East, East Europe) or Eastern (mostly in Iran, Caucasus, Russia) Armenian dialects

700px-Armenian_dialects,_Adjaria.jpg
kogv4krjgb981.jpg

One thing to note is that while these maps are limited to the Armenian heartland, historically there had been significant Armenian minority populations in places like Istanbul, Crimea, Moldavia, the Levant, etc. which would also either adhere to Western or Eastern Armenian

ANOTHER very important thing to note, is both Western and Eastern Armenian are essentially "vernacular/modern" Armenian. Written Armenian anywhere until the 19th century was in Classical Armenian. It was the literary and liturgical language, and between the 5th to 11th century (so prior the game's timeline), it was also the spoken language.

(So you get the same dilemma as with Pontic Greek that you mentioned this about earlier on your post). In Classical (Grabar), "eastern" or "western" don't apply.

Below is a chart that compares pronunciation between the three, which is relevant to how the same letter might be transliterated differently to the Latin alphabet

Armenian.jpg


For another comparison between the three, there is also this video

So since Tarsus is Տարսոն in Armenian, it would be most appropriate to either transliterate it as Darson (based on Western Armenian spoken in Cilicia), or as Tarson (based on Classical Armenian, the literary language)
 
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The difference between how certain letters are transliterated (like "t" or "d") depends on whether it is transliterated from Western (Mostly spoken in Anatolia, Middle East, East Europe) or Eastern (mostly in Iran, Caucasus, Russia) Armenian dialects


One thing to note is that while these maps are limited to the Armenian heartland, historically there had been significant Armenian minority populations in places like Istanbul, Crimea, Moldavia, the Levant, etc. which would also either adhere to Western or Eastern Armenian

ANOTHER very important thing to note, is that this is essentially "vernacular/modern" Armenian. Written Armenian anywhere until the 19th century was mostly in Classical Armenian (So you get the same dilemma as with Pontic Greek that you mentioned this about earlier on your post). In Classical (Grabar), "eastern" or "western" don't apply.

Below is a chart that compares pronunciation between the three, which is relevant to how the same letter might be transliterated differently to the Latin alphabet

View attachment 1183648

For another comparison between the three, there is also this video

So since Tarsus is Տարսոն in Armenian, it would be most appropriate to either transliterate it as Darson (based on Western Armenian spoken in Cilicia), or as Tarson (based on Classical Armenian)

Perhaps if it is impossible to know if they are speaking in Western or Eastern dialect in the areas Armenians were minority in, and for sake of consistency, defaulting to Classical Armenian for both Western and Eastern Armenian would be the best?
 
Perhaps if it is impossible to know if they are speaking in Western or Eastern dialect in the areas Armenians were minority in, and for sake of consistency, defaulting to Classical Armenian for both Western and Eastern Armenian would be the best?
I agree with using Classical Armenian as the basis for this, but not because we don't know what they spoke, we mostly do know what Armenian dialects are/were present in those regions, the maps I posted are just limited to the Armenian homeland (although the first map mentions some places like austro-hungary, nakhchivan-on-don, etc.)

Armenians in the former Ottoman Empire and Austro-Hungary spoke Western Armenian dialects.
In Russia, Crimea, Caucasus, Iran it was mostly Eastern Armenian.

I think the main reason to opt for Classical Armenian is more so because nearly all written Armenian up to the 19th century was in Classical Armenian. It had also been the spoken language from the 5th up until the 11th century, though after that it was mainly just used for literary and liturgical purposes and otherwise considered a dead language. From the 19th-20th century onwards (modern day) it solely becomes the liturgical language of the Armenian Apostolic and Catholic churches
 
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@Pavía, could you perhaps make a new "urbanization" map mode for these Tinto Maps that paints the locations based on their settlement type (rural, town, city)? Maybe like rural is green, town is red, city is yellow, or something like that. I think such a map mode would be very informative, and would also prove helpful for feedback (eg. if you made a town/city accidentally rural or vice versa).
It would also help us understand what town or city is meant to represent in the game, as they feature was only mentioned I think once in a single DD so far and never since, so apart from the 3 examples for each given we don't know what a city or a town should be (like, are the Italian city states or the Imperial Free Cities cities, or towns, or either, despite usually not having as high populations as the examples you gave (Paris and Alexandria both having 250-300k pops)?).

We definitely could be giving feedback about that
 
@Pavía, could you perhaps make a new "urbanization" map mode for these Tinto Maps that paints the locations based on their settlement type (rural, town, city)? Maybe like rural is green, town is red, city is yellow, or something like that. I think such a map mode would be very informative, and would also prove helpful for feedback (eg. if you made a town/city accidentally rural or vice versa).
It would also help us understand what town or city is meant to represent in the game, as they feature was only mentioned I think once in a single DD so far and never since, so apart from the 3 examples for each given we don't know what a city or a town should be (like, are the Italian city states or the Imperial Free Cities cities, or towns, or either, despite usually not having as high populations as the examples you gave (Paris and Alexandria both having 250-300k pops)?).

We definitely could be giving feedback about that
 
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Oooooh, Tinto Feedback for Anatolia coming Monday!
 
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