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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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But, the Tatarstan living in Tatarstan are only just Tatars. It's like naming French culture Parisian because it's French people that live near Paris.
I think it might be based off the divisions of the Tatar language, with the Central/Middle dialect (also known as the Kazan dialect) and the Western dialect (Mişär or Mishar), which might be the "...hary" showing up on the bottom part of the map?
 
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But, the Tatarstan living in Tatarstan are only just Tatars. It's like naming French culture Parisian because it's French people that live near Paris.
All French people are related and self identify as French. Tatar is almost always an exonym, referring to groups that have nothing to do with each other, including groups in Kypchak, Oghuz and Siberian Turkic linguistic clades that haven't interacted in centuries. I don't think Kazani should be renamed Tatar.
 
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Just checked, and currently, we have 13 different types of heir selections available for republics; some generic, some unique; so there will be different types of possibilities and combinations.
Will this succession law of republics who choose another leader as their own also be available to italian commune (I'm reffering to the podestate system in medieval northern Italy)
 
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Disagree. I think it's better to use a modern name that could possibly be an endonym, rather than a dismissive obvious exonym. You know Europa Universalia players like their religious conversion. Being the king of Lithuania and declaring "all Russia must now become Romuva" feels cool. Declaring "All Russia must now become Baltic Pagan" feels weak and less immersive.
I really hope catering to the pop-history crowd does not become not-EU5s strategy...also thinking that ethnic polytheistic faiths would be obsessed with wanting to "convert" foreign cultures is a very Christian-centric way of thinking.
 
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You seem knowledgeable about this area, maybe you could draw a modified version of the culture map to help correct misplacements? Great comment by the way.
I didn't put much time into that map, so that's why it's not very exact, but I'll try to make an altered ethnic map, but it'll take a good while for me to make it, I might post it later today or tomorrow.
 
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i hope in eu5 there is also a slight moreif relevant for that time period implementation, increased relevance of infrastructure and transportation methods.
As we can even see today such an enormous country is dependent very much on infrastructure to transport for trade, warfare and internal economics etc.

I think vic3 missed out on this aspect. Also on aspects of there is a natural harbour and later built out. I hope to see more naturally developing things which can be expanded by the player. Best with values for goods like coined before such as tonnage metric. Which would finally could give some more flavour to a trade ship (cargo capacity in tonnes) instead of now in eu4 the trade power only boost.
 
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Regarding the origin of modern East Slavic ethnic groups and how they evolved from medieval tribal groups to contemporary ethnic groups during Project Caesar's timespan, may I recommend Serhii Plokhy's book "The Origins of the Slavic Nations: Premodern Identities in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus"? It's an amazing resource concerning the development of East Slavic ethnicities, which Project Caesar would need to touch on.

In addition, despite existing in the game start, the principalities of Malmyzh and Izhmari are absent from the map. Both were among the largest of the Mari principalities, and persisted until late 1500s until they were conquered during the Cheremis Wars. Malmyzh's prince Boltush was one of the main commanders of the Mari during the Cheremis Wars. The Mari principalities of Vetluzhsky Principality (AKA Vetluga/Shanza/Sanga) and Chimbulat Principality (AKA Kokšar) would've probably still existed during the game's timeperiod, whereas the Mari principalities of Kityaka, Porek, and Urzhum would go on to form later in the 1500s.

Vychegda Perm AKA Principality of Vym should probably also be represented as a distinct political entity separate from Great Perm.

I think that for the Veps, Ingrians (Izhorians) and Karelians you can comfortably add the religion of Baltic Finnic Paganism, which could be used in other baltic finnic peoples (finns and estonians) too. It would replace the "animism" you currently use for Veps as shown on the religion mapmode, though at this point in time the Veps should probably be majority orthodox thanks to Novgorodian missionary activity.

Basic introduction is on Wikipedia of course: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Finnic_paganism

In other PDX games you've used various names such as Suomenusko or Ukonusko which are neologisms, both used by neo-pagans. I think Ukonusko works fine, meaning "Belief in Ukko" who is recorded as the main god of thunder. Suomenusko is a very finnish-centric name which rubs me the wrong way.

Alternatively, you go the Sami Shamanism route and use "Finnic Shamanism" as a name, avoiding neologisms entirely.

Edit: I noted the Erzya are marked as animist for some reason while other volga finnic peoples are marked as shamanist, while you will probably make a better religion for them in the future at least put them in the same placeholder religion lol
Probably not for the Vepsians, since they were Christianised in the 900s-1000s, and are thus the oldest Baltic-Finnic ethnic group to have Christianised. This is reflected in Vepsian folklore being rather Christianised - one of the reasons why Finnish folklorists ignored Vepsians was that their early Christianisation had led to them not preserving their traditional runic songs, and having instead adopted much Russian folk poetry. For Izhorians and Karelians, the presence of Baltic Finnic polytheism is perfectly reasonable - even among the Finns, missionary work was still ongoing in the 1300s and 1400s.
 
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Im sugesting there will be a mechanic that made Novgorodian, and Muscovite turn into one Russian culture when the Russian principalities are unified, leaving Severian and Ruthenian on their own
 
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I have made a thread about this in the past but could we finally move on from a monocultural "finnish" identity that arguably didn't exist until the 1850's?
The modern finns were:
-linguistically different. It should be a gradual progress threw events etc. The written finnish language was invented in 1543 which was Mikael Agricola's ABC-kiria and it was based on the dialect of the coastal/tavastian regions.

-tribe wise different. This can be seen even today in the finnish eastern DNA and western DNA being MORE different than the difference between SOUTHERN ITALIANS and HUNGARIANS genetically. There should be the Ostrobothinian, Finns-proper, Tavastians and Savolaxians. (unifying them should be the goal of any released finland or sweden/russia to pacify the region, in 1809 and with the creation of the first finnish entity these tribal loyalties etc. practically finally came to an end and even then there was conflict between karelians and the nationalism of the then brand new finnish identity leading to the later karelianism and Suur-Suomi ideas and the resulting kinshipwars with the goal of uniting all of the heimot)

-Tribes acted usually very practically and had agency. Multiple tribes were hustling and playing the swedes against the russians and vice versa. There was a certain balance of power in the region at this time. This slowly broke down as the finnish tribes kept losing their autonomy. For example the tavastians were aligned with the swedes, but the karelians were more in the pocket of Novgorod and later Muscovy.
If they do make the different Finnish tribes different cultures, then Karelian should expand a bit west I think. The way the Finnish and Karelian cultures seem to be depicted rn is "Nordic-influenced Finnish tribes = Finnish" and "Russian-influenced Finnish tribes = Karelian", and Karelian Finns are really the opposite, that is, Karelians who were subject to Nordic and the later Nordic-influenced pan-Finnish culture and what came with it (Lutheranism, Standardized Finnish language, etc.)
I'm open to the idea of splitting the Finnish culture up, but the current system isn't too bad. The issue I have is that by the end of the game those tribes are really just regional identifications I think, but I guess you could say the same about all of the French cultures.
 
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We usually take into account linguistics for cultural division. So, 'Novgorodian' portrays the 'Northern dialects' of Eastern Rus, 'Muscovite' the 'Central dialects', and 'Severian' the 'Southern dialects'. But take this as an open answer; I think that there might be reasons to unify the culture into 'Russian', and also to further subdivide it (as another person pointed out on the previous page); we'll review all the informed opinions on the matter after a while, and make a decision regarding that that feel appropriate both for historical and game-logical reasons. Thanks for the input, by the way. ;)
The main expert on Old East Slavic believes that there were 2 main eastern dialects of this language, Novgorod and southern “Moscow”. (Sorry, pre-moderation won’t let me paste the link). And for that matter, it’s strange to call the southern dialects Severian, since the Slavic word sever means north.
 
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Both versions are historical. :D

Difference comes from different sources, russian sources would just call rhe country "Moscow" (or "Moscow principality\duchy"), after the capital city, while western would use latinised version "Muscovy".
Sure, but we’re talking about the English-language version of the game, and in English Muscovy is a more historic term afaik
 
Feels a bit of contradiction
>County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war
>Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country
How come Oreshek is a buffer country, but there is nothing on other side of it? Still a 1000km way to Sweden border if it's uncolonized empty land.
 
Im sugesting there will be a mechanic that made Novgorodian, and Muscovite turn into one Russian culture when the Russian principalities are unified, leaving Severian and Ruthenian on their own
If Russian culture will be present in the game, pops with Severian culture should turn into Russian if controlled by a country of Russian culture and turn into Ukraininan/Belarusian if controlled by countries of these cultures. It's what has happened historically, as nowadays we can see that people of Russian parts of historical Severia - such as Belgorod, Kursk and Bryansk regions - identify themselves as Russians, while population of Western Severia (Sumy/Chernihiv regions of Ukraine) identify themselves as Ukrainians.
In fact, the descendants of the Severians tribe were known as Sevryuks and indeed had some distinctive cultural features: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Севрюки
 
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Would also be fine. Though, ironically, Moscow is probably closer to the original form -"Москов".

Can't add link to wiktionary, you can check there.
Isn't it «Москъвь» or «Московь». And ь at that time was pronounced close to i sound. It technically makes Muscovy as the most correct name.
 
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  • Why are Smolensk and Rhzev subjects of Lithuania in 1337? As far as I can determine this didn't happen until the 1350s.
  • On the Volga visibility, it's certainly be nice to have it (and the major Siberian routes) visible on the map, but regardless of their direct visibility, are these used in the proximity calculations Johan mentioned in Talk #6?
 
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If they do make the different Finnish tribes different cultures, then Karelian should expand a bit West I think. The way the Finnish and Karelian cultures seem to be depicted rn is "Nordic-influenced Finnish tribes = Finnish" and "Russian-influenced Finnish tribes = Karelian", and Karelian Finns are really the opposite, that is, Karelians who were subject to Nordic and the later Nordic-influenced pan-Finnish culture and what came with it (Lutheranism, Standardized Finnish language, etc.)
I'm open to the idea of splitting the Finnish culture up, but the current system isn't too bad. The issue I have is that by the end of the game those tribes are really just regional identifications I think, but I guess you could say the same about all of the French cultures.
That would still be unnecessary simplification. Different tribes were aligned and the savolax even converted between paganism and eastern and both western christianity to balance between the on the ground power dynamic. As I said it would be a goal of a Sweden or russia/released Finland to make the unified Identity actually exist. So these tribal lines would slowly go away as the game progresses. And to address the point about karelians. That split came into being once sweden conquered the Isthmus in 1595 in the peace of Täyssilä. That would be represented by having that part of Carelia be converted into Lutheranism well enough in my opinion. The border regions of Savonia were not integrated properly until the 1700's into the homogenous finnish culture that started in Turku/Åbo and Vaasa/Vasa. The history of Finland is basically trackable threw linguistics. The savonian dialect is one of the more wide spread and unique ones. Here is a map of all the dialects ways of saying "I" or in book finnish "Minä" for reference for how the tribal map would look like.

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Some things about Great Perm from the Russian wikipedia page (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Пермь_Великая):

The english wikipedia page uses the following map, which is the same as on the russian page, but it is missing the context:
1719593019716.jpeg

There is the Principality of Great Perm in dark green, and then Great Perm in light green (Also the Pelym principality in orange). Former is the ”heartland” of around 9000 km2, while the latter is the hinterland of 85000 km2.

About its borders (used google translate and cleaned it a little coz Im lazy even though I know some russian):
”To the north, it extended to the portage from the upper reaches of the Kolva River to the tributaries of the Vychedga, where it bordered on Vychedgan Perm. To the west, the territory of the principality reached the upper reaches of the Kama and the Vyatka , where the Vyatka land began. In the south, the principality controlled territory up to the Chusovaya River, the lands beyond which belonged to the Bashkirs […]. The eastern border, along the Ural mountains - with the Mansi - was the most restless and was often violated from both sides. The center of the principality was located in the area of the confluence of the Kolva, Vishera and Kama rivers.”

The first cencus was conducted by Muscovy in 1530, 25 years after annexation. It counted 2145 bowmen (adult male heads of households who could carry a weapon). Based on this, the total population was estimated to be around 6000. Another estimate is 4500. Keep in mind that this might not include the ”hinterland” mentioned before, but at the same time, northern and eastern Russia were *very* sparsely populated from what I’ve seen (I remember reading about various Siberian polities also having population numbering in thousands despite their vast lands on maps).

There is more info in the article, for example about settlements and economy, that I won’t get into. I highly recommend you give the page a look with google translate, it is far more expansive than the english version. Sadly, I cannot recommend any actual proper sources as I’m not from Russia, but wikipedia is better than nothing.
 
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