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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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Would be nice to differentiate between marshes (grassy wetland) and swamps (forested wetland).
I mean...

Marsh is a topography value, separate from vegetation. You can have marsh + grasslans/sparse as well as marsh + woods forest.
 
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I think there should be way way more swamps: significant parts of the North-West, especially around Dvina, Mezen bay / Kanin Peninsula and beyond, parts of Karelia, Neva and surroundings, area Novgorod especially toward the North, majority of Kola, most of the area of Vyshny Volochyok and Mariinsky waterways, but also going down to Smolensk - Moscow - N. Novgorod - Izhevsk - Perm line and so on. Unfortunately I didn't managed to find any papers on the topic on a national level, especially in English, but even modern peat bog maps clearly show the scale of it. And situation in 14th century after the Mongols and before hundreds of years of development and especially water infrastructure projects and swamp drainage programs in Central Russia during the late empire times and in the Soviet Union was way worse.
There Is a project called PEATMAP, you can at least try to import it into your GIS tool. It may be useful for other regions as well.
 
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Just have one question:

Who is/are keeping reacting respectively disagree to every response of pavía?
 
It's imposing the European/English term and perspective, so a form of Eurocentrism, as a general rule people should decide what they themselves are called. Part of the fun of playing EU is playing from different perspectives and learning about that region
We are playing the game in English already. Idk I could maybe see a game rule to keep country names native making sense, but it doesn’t make sense to be inconsistent about this. The Mamluks called themselves State of the Turks and State of the Circassians, but it wouldn’t make much sense to call them that since we don’t refer to them this way when speaking English.
 
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I would like to play for Russia, as for the confederation of peoples, something like HRE. Will there be an international organization "Russia" in any form? If not, then I would like some way to get this political formation.

And Russia also gathered in its state the last representatives of the Roman and Mongolian empires. For this reason, Russian rulers often raised the issue of the heritage of these lands. In the game, this can be implemented as the creation of international organizations (which, of course, no one will join for a voluntary reason). During the formation, it is necessary to give constant negative indicators on the opinion of neighbors and aggressive expansion, and as bonuses - internal stability and the rate of assimilation.
 
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We are playing the game in English already. Idk I could maybe see a game rule to keep country names native making sense, but it doesn’t make sense to be inconsistent about this. The Mamluks called themselves State of the Turks and State of the Circassians, but it wouldn’t make much sense to call them that since we don’t refer to them this way when speaking English.
Thats one of the reason I dislike Nordic country names for Nordics in HOI4.

But whatever.
 
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I'm a bit hesitant as to this for two reasons, but am interested to see your thoughts. Firstly, I'm not sure if they can fully be considered Magyars, but they were certainly a Uralic tribe that had some previous connections to the migrating Magyars from archeological and genetic evidence. Culturally however they remained much more nomadic and had a more tribal structure and culture, as noted in Friar Julian's account of his travels to Magna Hungaria. Perhaps labeling them as Chiyalik is a more proper term given these differences, but this culture would die out and be assimilated into the Bashkirs of the area. They can however, still be considered Hungarian/magyar speaking, since PC seems to have some language component alluded to, and given Friar Julian's describing of the language as mutually intelligible to Hungarian at the time.

The second concern is the limits you show them on the map, since by Friar Julian's second journey, he reported that the eastern Hungarians had been wiped out and he couldn't find them as a result of the encroaching Mongols. As such I believe the limits of the culture should be smaller, and already partially assimilated with the Bashkirs.
Good points all around. However the range of the culture is based on the archaeological sites attributed to the Chiyalik culture. While they suffered heavily under the Mongol expansion, they were apparently integrated into the Mongol society as evidenced by Golden Horde coinage being found alongside Chiyalik ceramics and their own burial types distinct from the Golden Horde ones. They may have even converted to Islam before they got assimilated by Bashkirs under the Golden Horde as evidenced by a change in burial practices and their adoption their coinage too. Overall the culture seems to have survived along the Belaya river all the way to the 15th century.
 
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What’s with the nationalism and the hatred of exonyms? It tells more about the importance and richness of a culture when they exist.
Sure. No, exonyms in general are just fine, but this one in particular is just way less nicer especially in the context of later Russia and dangerously close a popular ethic slur. It is kind of similar to 'the Ukraine' and has a note of anti-russian sentiment and western exceptionalism to it. Plus Muscovy or Moscovia usually used in stead of a full name, not in this mixed manner.
 
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Have you considered doing live Vic3 and having "Decentralised Nations" in regions without states?
 
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We are playing the game in English already. Idk I could maybe see a game rule to keep country names native making sense, but it doesn’t make sense to be inconsistent about this. The Mamluks called themselves State of the Turks and State of the Circassians, but it wouldn’t make much sense to call them that since we don’t refer to them this way when speaking English.
Yeah good point, but I think it's quite easy to separate the problematic ones from the non problematic ones, like Bonoman and Bono state. Ultimately it depends on recognisability and how they're called in literature but if a native name is used interchangeably with an exonym, I think the native name should be used
 
I mean, if they're being so granular with cultures I don't see why they can't apply the same level of granularity to religion.
Religions usually carry a larger amount of mechanics while cultures are primarily just groupings used to differentiate between people. If they aren’t planning to add flavor to those very specific religions I don’t see the point of dividing them so much.
 
Few notes about Mari culture:
1) As mentioned before few times - Mari shifted slightly to the east. Yes, there are some Mari people in present day Bashkiria (near Ufa city), but they moved there much later due christianisation under Russian rule.
2) At this moment Mari inhabited area between Vetluga, Vyatka, Kazanka and Volga river (map of late XV century in attach, but still kinda accurate to game state) - red icons "=" and "||" on the map
Also you could see areas inhabited by Tatars (green "v"). Chuvash (green "="), Bashkir (green square), Erzya (red "v"), Moksha (red "^"), Udmurt (red lower semisphere), and Komi-permians (red upper semisphere)
3) Province of "Yaransk" should be named as "Archa" (name of city Arsk in tatar) or simply "Mari", because cities like Yaransk, Yoshkar-Ola (which means "red city" and gained such name only during Soviet period), Kokshaysk, Kozmodemyansk was established only in late XVI cent.
4) Location of "Vasilsursk" should be easternmost location of Russian principalities on Volga river. Vasilgorod (Васильгород - green city on the border of Kazan khanate on the map) was established in 1523 on the Muscovy-Kazan border. So locations east to it should be part of Golden Horder (and have no such Slavic majority)
 

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I think it's based on language and supposed to represent the transition dialects between Muscovite and Ruthenian (plus I think "Grand Duke of Severia" was a title), kind of awkward since it should eventually be subsumed to either Ruthenian or Muscovite culture depending on who controls what. You're even seeing some people here complain that bits and bobs of it should be ceded to Ruthenian.

Novgorodian being represented is definitely sensible. While it was already at this time being subsumed by the Muscovian dialect, it used to be way more divergent, definitely on its way to becoming the 4th (or I guess 3rd since Ruthenian was still a single thing at this time) East Slavic language, some linguists even propose it might've been part of an hypothetical North Slavic branch instead.
idk if Pomors should be their own group, I think they could be simulated by having small amounts of Novgoridian culture pops hanging on for the entirety of the game's timeline.

Severian is kind of awkward as aforementioned. It's arguably anachronistic but imo it could definitely just be split between Muscovite and Ruthenian and few people would complain. If it is to continue existing it should definitely be shifted a bit though to include places like Chernihiv though.

I see some people say the split of Ruthenian into Ukrainian and Belarusian should be simulated somehow... I find this unecessary, the two groups were lumped together all the way up until the January Uprising which will most likely be way after the game's timeline ends.
Local linguistic and cultural differences have always existed, even before the start date. Over time they intensified. An important event was the Union of Lublin in 1569, after which the borders between Belarusians and Ukrainians were formed. It is worth understanding that the borders were drawn for a reason; Belarusian lands are given to Lithuania, and as we know, the Belarusian ethnic group has a Balto-Slavic basis.
 
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We usually take into account linguistics for cultural division. So, 'Novgorodian' portrays the 'Northern dialects' of Eastern Rus, 'Muscovite' the 'Central dialects', and 'Severian' the 'Southern dialects'. But take this as an open answer; I think that there might be reasons to unify the culture into 'Russian', and also to further subdivide it (as another person pointed out on the previous page); we'll review all the informed opinions on the matter after a while, and make a decision regarding that that feel appropriate both for historical and game-logical reasons. Thanks for the input, by the way. ;)
Fine, then just call it Northern, Central or Middle and Southern. It would probably cause the least amount of questions, it has no ties to existing cities / regions / polities etc and would allow to get rid of that absurd fantasy 'Severian' culture, named after some tribe teleported into the future from 4 centuries before. Moreover, there is reliable data on dialects from the Empire, the Soviet Union and modern Russia and distribution of dialects somewhat correlates with (and actually caused by) borders of late medieval polities and especially power struggle between more independent Russian polities, Mongol and Lithuanian controlled lands.
 
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Thanks for your work. But for now, the borders of the principalities of the former Kievan Rus in 1337 raise questions.
in 1337, on the territory of the former Chernigov-Seversky principality, there was no direct Tatar control.
Bryansk, Glukhov, Rylsk-Putivl, etc. remained as “free” as the “Verkhovsky” principalities (Karachay, etc.).

We can talk about direct control of the Tatars, only over part of the Kyiv reign.

Similarly, the process of conquering Volyn the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was not yet completed.

The best historical kratographer on the territory of the former USSR was an early deceased Belarusian historian Viktor Temushev (Виктор Темушев)

You will not find more detailed maps of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and north-eastern Rus' than the maps of his authorship

Greater Historical Atlas of Belarus - official publication of the Academy of Sciences of Belarus 2013
volume 1
you can easily find it on the Internet (I can’t give a direct link here)
vjaliki-gistarychny-atlas-belarusi-t1

Below is a screenshot Example of Temushev maps - the Grand Duchy of Lithuania extension


There is only one clarification to his cards.
According to updated data, the Tula region was not under direct rule of the Golden Horde.
The Golden Horde simply collected tribute from the Tula region directly, not through the Grand Duke of Vladimir or Ryazan.
taxes from the region of Tula and Yelets were collected directly by the Horde and went to the budget of the wife of the Great Khan.

The cities of Tula and Yelets themselves were the cause of disputes between Moscow and Ryazan.
the city of Yelets had its own princely dynasty, which died after the invasion of Tamerlane.
I wanted the map to reflect the difference between
The Grand Duchy of Vladimir - whose title allowed the collection of tribute for the Mongols since the time of Ivan Danilovich of Moscow.

and the Moscow Principality itself - one of the parts of the Grand Duchy of Vladimir (how Burgundy was part of France).

It is important to reflect that the leader in northeastern Rus' (Suzdal + Novgorod + Ryazan) is not a simple the strongest principality. Leader controlled Vladimir, and bears the title Grand Duke of Vladimir.

At the same time, Ryazan is an old pre-Mongol Grand Duchy (lake Vladimir or Smolensk), and stands separately from the Vladimir region (Suzdal region).
The ruler of Vladimir is not senior over Ryazan or Murom in terms of title.
Ryazan is more nobler and more significant than Tver, Moscow, Nizhny Novgorod, etc.

The same is true for Smolensk
These are old principalities that are nominally higher than Tver or Nizhny Novgorod or Moscow (without the title of Prince of Vladimir).

The Grand Duchy of Vladimir expanded to the West after the Mongol invasion. So Mozhaisk was previously in the Smolensk Grand Duchy.
in 1337
Toropets is a part of Vitebsk
Karachay and Novosil are vassal of Gluhov (part of collapsed Chernigov-Seversky principality)
Mozhaisk annexed by Moscow in 1303
The Principality of Mstislav is still a vassal of Smolensk, like Mogilev and Propoisk (they were annexed by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 1348-1359)

in 1337, the Dmitrov Principality had already broken up into the Galich Principality (capital of Galich Mersky) and the Dmitrov Principality (capital of Dmitrov)

Karelia as a principality of Narimunt is not correct, because. he was given only income from the territories, and not their management.

Ryazan did not own Meshchera (Kasimov and Elatma), Russian rule appeared there only under Dmitry Donskoy.
Ryazan was extended to the south, without complete control of the territory up to and including Voronezh.
Between Ryazan and the Horde there was a Wild Field (the first mention of the Ryazan “Cossacks” was in the second half of the 14th century.
 

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What's that tiny bit of Lithuania south of Trubchevsk?
Rylsk and Glukhovo, two pieces of land apparently controlled directly by Lithuania.
 
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