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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
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The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
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Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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This looks like the Russian word for detention cell (съе́зжая/sʺjézžaja). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/съе́зжая

The difference between Съезжая and съе́зжая seems so small. At least the devs are not including a Russian prison cell as a location on the map. o_O

And the English romanization of S''Yezzhaya could be better as the standard name with others as dynamic names, so that the naming is consistent.
this means to move down, to go down, most likely when the river froze, goods were transported along it on sleighs
 
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Yes, they impact it, although it will be more clearly defined after the summer (we have some planned tweaks on that).

Speaking of these tweaks to how markets spread... Could you tell us if local centers of trade will get to play a part here? I mean, will they matter in terms of market access & attraction?

To put it in practical terms, take Florence.
Will Florence feel like a major hub in the Genoese market, capable of bringing eastern Tuscany into Genoa's orbit?
Will Florence have buildings or modifiers that grant it bonus market access, befitting of a powerful trade city (and counteracting its rather peripheral location within the abstracted Genoese market)?
Will the improved market access spill over to nearby locations, which primarily trade through Florence (and so should benefit from their proximity to the local trade center even when they lack convenient connections to Genoa)?
Were Florence to flip and join the Venetian market, would other locations in Tuscany be more inclined to follow in its footsteps?

Obviously Florence is only an example. The same effects could apply to Danzig or Chester; basically any place with regional commercial significance that isn't the seat of its market.
 
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If I'm not mistaken, the right farmlands on this part of map represents Moscow and it's area. I'd like to know is there any plans somehow represent territory of Opole (Vladimir-Suzdal) as farmlands as well? I understand that Opole lost its significance after Mongol invasion to the region of Moscow, and agricultural activities there also lowered, but it didn't gone completely. It feels very strange that territory literally named Fields (pole = field) is shown as woods
 

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The conversion of Finns and Karelians into Christianity happened mostly due to Swedish and Novgorodian influence respectively. I think it would be more accurate to have these peoples be mostly pagan outside/further away from Sweden's or Novgorod's territories.

Having own Finnic pagan faith would be preferable, but due to lack of better alternatives at the moment, Animism would also do.
 
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I think we will get, after Carpathia and the Balkans, HRE, Scandinavia, Caucasus and the Pontic Steppe. I have absolutely no idea what will come afterwards though. An extremely boring Atlantic Ocean Tinto Maps? I don't think it will get to Middle East or Asia just yet though. Maybe areas with scarcer records and hence larger regions at once, like Americas, Oceania or Sub-Saharan Africa? Or maybe they will have done the minorities in MENA by then and we will continue going on more populated areas? Siberia/Northern Asia also seems like a possibility after Europe since it is barren and scarcely recorded.
I had a dream that after Carpathia/Balkans they stopped doing Tinto Maps and only posted regions they've already covered. It was a nightmare...
 
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First of all, excited to see the sneak peek of Finland and find my own home town there! Definitely something I wasn't expecting but it makes me even happier.

Now, to the questions/suggestions regarding Finland and it's relationship with Russia.

- you can kinda see the border between Sweden and the Novgorodian vassal, and it's pretty much just in the south. However, the Treaty of Nöteborg acknowledged the border much further north in the now-uncolonised lands.

- something in the predecessor of Project Caesar that bothers me about independent Finland was the capital, as it is always Helsinki, although for the timeframe it should be Turku. Helsinki was only made the capital during the Grand Duchy (under Russia).

Åbo should be the capital yes, but its also depends on what type of Finland we want to simulate really, as "Egentliga Finland" for most of the timeperiod was rather "swedish", if not in ethnical backgrounds, very much so in culture compared to the rest of Finland.


Borders in uncolonized areas are rather hard to define currently in the game, but I would really like to have historical borders happening organically there, I'd like to simulate it.
 
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3. Technical reasons, maybe @Johan has some time available to explain it (I'm not sure what can already be talked about, and what is still a 'secret matter').

They need to belong to somewhere in the province-area-region-subcontinent-continent hierarchy for many mechanics to work properly.
 
Sure. I considered breaking a bit more the map this week, already, but Russia was just on the border of what can be seen and what not, so I preferred to post just one map and offer more detailed ones if needed:

View attachment 1155238
I see...

Beautiful soviet Tutaev and Noginsk you have here! But, sadly, modern maps of Russia aren't the best help to name XIV century after several waves of new-cities creation... I'd try to rename the most anachronic ones, if nobody started yet.

But firstly - "Tutaev" represents not just one, but two ancient russian cities, Romanov (named after saint prince Roman and which in 1345 will become capital of Romanov principality)) and Borisoglebsk, divided by river. So the best way I see here is to rename "Tutaev" to "Romanov" and "Bolshoe Selo"(random village) to "Borisoglebsk".


9185.webp

Noginsk was a village called Rogozh, but it would be better to change into Vochna (Вохна) (modern Pavlov Posad), which was a votchina of both Ivan Kalita and Dmitriy Donskoy princes.

Two maps, which may be helpful:

Русь_при_Дмитрии_Донском.jpg

col-sever.jpg
^^^about this one, it would be quite important to represent Sergiy of Radonezh, since his disciples monastery-colonised the North, creating tens of new orthodox outposts in the wild in late XIV and early XV centuries. Until when everything of hte north of Vologda was wild (except novgorodian affairs and pomors!
Also "Sergiev Posad" doesnt make sense until creation of monastery here by Sergiy and his death. Location can be named Chotkovo (Хотьково), which was a city firstly mentioned in 1308, and later renamed after Sergiy by event.

I'd try to provide more suggestions later.;)
 
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Hey Johan I’m obsessed with Population numbers (not about their realism ) I have personal desire. do you have a chance to share population of countries by rank .There is not needed to share countries you didn’t show yet just Europe and Anatolia .
 
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Found it in the Internet archives.
historian Viktor Temushev
Dissertation "Territory and borders of the Moscow principality at the end of the 13th - first half of the 14th centuries."
()If you need the text of a scientific paper in Russian, write in a personal message, I will send you a link.)

Author's note
I am posting my PhD thesis (text, maps and tables) for public viewing. I defended my specialty in 07.00.03 - general history at the Belarusian State University on February 28, 2002.

The maps were made in a very old version of MapInfo (5th, if I'm not mistaken), there was no export function yet. Only recently I converted it to a normal format, but not all cards opened normally. In addition, in my haste, I no longer agree on the card numbers with those in the text. Well, you can figure it out for yourself. Here's a list for reference:

Map P.1.1. Southwestern borders of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality in the middle of the 12th - second half of the 13th century.

Map P.1.2. Borders of the principalities in the middle of the 12th - first half of the 13th century. Historians' opinions

Map P.1.3. Western lands of the Moscow Principality at the beginning of the XIV - XVI centuries.

Map P.1.4. The western border of the Moscow principality at the beginning of the 14th century.

Map P.1.5. The northwestern and northern border of the Moscow Principality until the second half of the 14th century.


Map P.1.6. The northern border of the Moscow Principality until the second half of the 14th century.

Map P.1.7. Northeastern lands of the Moscow Principality until the second half of the 14th century.

Map P.1.8. The southeastern lands of the Moscow principality by the beginning of the 14th century.

Map P.1.9. South of the Moscow Principality at the end of the 13th - beginning of the 14th century.

Map P.1.10. Moscow "City district"

Map P.1.11. Mozhaisk land, annexed to Moscow in 1303

Map P.1.12. Kolomna land, annexed to Moscow at the beginning of the 14th century.

Map P.1.13. “Lopastensky places”, annexed to Moscow at the beginning of the 14th century.

Map P.1.14. “Another place in Ryazan” in the second half of the 14th century.

Map P.1.15. The growth of the Moscow principality at the end of the 13th - first half of the 14th century.
 

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Im sugesting there will be a mechanic that made Novgorodian, and Muscovite turn into one Russian culture when the Russian principalities are unified, leaving Severian and Ruthenian on their own
Are they going to magically merge? If not, then I'd suggest instead to have mechanics modelling suppression and heavy efforts that tends to be behind cultural/religious assimilation.

Assimilating surrounding peoples into the muscovite culture, and styling it as Russian to legitimize such efforts, happened over centuries with malevolent despotic rule - not by peasant brothers dancing arm in arm and all of a sudden realizing they are the same.
 
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a number of maps by period
 

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So why slavic population in Vyatka presented as Muscovite ? Vyatka was founded by Novgorodians. And even still Vyatka dialect have some archaic linguistic forms, so i guess it more correct to make Vyatka Novgorodian culture.
Sources:
- Encylopedia of Vyatka Land V.8 p.244
- Whole Tale of the Vyatka Country (~XVIII century) 1905 edition.
I'm creating an overhauled cultural map of the region currently and Vyatka shouldn't be Novgordian or Muscovite. In reality most of the region was majority Udmurt in 1337, as large scale Russian settlement in Vyatka had only started in the late 13th century. So the region should be majority Udmurt with a strong Novgordian minority in Vyatka itself. Also several Mari were present in the region. Generally Udmurt is extremely poorly represented in game as Vyatka is represented as being Komi, despite Komi only being present in one location in Vyatka. Udmurt is also made the only culture in Perm and to the east, despite that region being mostly Komi and Ugric.

I'll finish the map when I get home, but all I have left to do is redraw Bashkir, Erzya, Moksha, Veps and Pomors. Expect it later today.
 
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Assimilating surrounding peoples into the muscovite culture, and styling it as Russian to legitimize such efforts, happened over centuries with malevolent despotic rule - not by peasant brothers dancing arm in arm and all of a sudden realizing they are the same.
I would like to see the research proving this point.

It was the case for Russification of Ukrainian and Belarusian identity. But it wasn't the case for united Russian culture. The research on it was described here
On this matter, I would recommend works of prof. Andrey Zaliznyak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Zaliznyak) who was an expert on Russian dialects (especially Old Novgorodian). Among other topics, he studied how the dialects interacted with each other, so the standard Russian grammar/morphology is, in fact, an amalgamation of both Non-Northern (i.e. Central/Southern, which are closer to each other than to Northern) and Northern dialect groups.
 
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I would like to see the research proving this point.

It was the case for Russification of Ukrainian and Belarusian identity. But it wasn't the case for united Russian culture. The research on it was described here
You want me to prove that linguistically distinct people groups didn't just one day wake up and being culturally indistinguishable?

I would say that you're the one bearing the burden of proving the rather unlikely claim, that people over a distance of thousands of kilometers were practicing the same customs before centralized attempts at homogenization.

Why do you think there's different cultures in this (well researched) Tinto Maps, if they're in reality just all Russians? :D

EDIT: and again disliking instead of arguments proving that the Russian state propaganda is more than just that. Surprise :eek:
 
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Could Wastelands/Impassable terrain be their own Provonce by it self or with other Wastelands/Impassable terrain.

no, because it would break the REDACTED mechanics