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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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Since West Balts are a thing in the starting date you may as well be inclined to look into East Galindians who supposedly lived in depths of Russia. Find source for yourself.
I foreshadow a great force wreaking havoc upon me.
If i remember correctly they were already assimilated at the time. In CK3 though - they are definitely supposed to exist at the early start
 
My main issue/suggestion about these cultures is "muscovite". It will feel rather weird if somebody else unifies the region - there is no previous history suggesting that the name of the culture must come from Moscow, it is all in the "theoretical" future. Naming it after the previous dominant center "Vladimirian" would make more sense. Or maybe even "Opolian", after the area around Vladimir, but that one wouldn't be that recognisable.
Opole is a small region of 70x30 km. Too small in relation to the large territory that was occupied by the Vladimir (Suzdal) principality.
Vladimir or Suzdal culture would be correct.
1719691748895.png
 
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Yes, I know about the theory of a common East Slavic language. But the origin of the three East Slavic languages from the common Old East Slavic is a controversial issue in linguistics. The researcher of Proto-Slavic and later Slavic languages, George Shevelov, for example, denies the existence of a common East Slavic spoken language after the disintegration of the Proto-Slavic language, and instead singles out 5 dialect regions in the territory that became part of Kievan Rus: 1) Novgorodian-Tverian; 2) Polotsk-Smolenskian; 3) Muromo-Ryazanian; 4) Kyiv-Polesian; 5) Galician-Podolian. The interaction of the Kyiv-Polesian and Galician-Podolian regions led to the formation of the Ukrainian language, due to the interaction of the Polotsk-Smolenskian and Kyiv-Polesian regions, the Belarusian language appeared, and between Novgorodian-Tverian and Muromo-Ryazanian - the Russian language.

I read on this subject Oleksandr Tsaruk's monograph "Ukrainian language among other Slavic languages: ethnological and grammatical parameters" (1998), the main idea of which regarding East Slavic languages is this: since the Ukrainian language is much closer to Belarusian, Polish and Slovak than to Russian, has no reason to believe that the Eastern Slavs had any common spoken language after the disintegration of Proto-Slavic. The problem with the concept of the East Slavic language group is that the Ukrainian, Belarusian, and Russian languages are united into a common group not so much because of their proximity, but rather because of territorial (Eastern Europe) and political (joint presence as part of Kievan Rus and later the Russian Empire) reasons, and such a classification does not take into account the significant proximity of the Ukrainian and Belarusian languages to the West Slavic languages, primarily to Polish and Slovak.

A.A. Zaliznyak developes idea of two dialect types: Northwestern (Novgorod-Pskov) and Soth-Eastern (Everything else), which fell apart ~12-14th century. Yuriy Shevelov is clearly a biased source, as he was a member of OUN. I can not find anything regarding Tsaruk's monograph, but would like to find out what it's about, if you do not mind. Zaliznyak is, in my opinion, much better authority in this case. He is a main researcher of Old Novgorodian dialect and a great expert in Old Russian language. Eastern slavic languages are really interintelligible, as they consist of 70-80% similar words with basically identical language rules. In times of Kyivan Rus' and some time after Mongol Invasion they were a part of one dialect continuum.

Cultural division should be
Language-based:
Old Novgorodian, Ruthenian (based on spread of Ruthenian language) even though it is too early for such a fast development in its spread and consolidation, and Russian with same problem.
Ruthenian and Russian should also be divided on regional basis, since Ruthenian langauge is just a writing system and consolidation of South-Western and Western dialects, not a separate linguistic entity, and Russian is just a condolidation of dialects of different forms too.

Seat-of-ower-based:
Galych, Volhynia, Kyiv, Chernihyv, Minsk, Polotsk, Smolensk, Novgorod, Murom-Ryazan, Vladimir-Suzdal

Region-based:
Polesian, Podniprovian, Podolian, Galychian, Volhynian, Severian, White Russian, Black Russian, Zalesian, Opolian, Pomorian, Novgorodian

or anything in between.
 
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I'd try to provide more suggestions later.;)

@Pavía

Sergiev Posad - Radonezh or Khotkovo (first for flavour, second for biggest settlement)
Gryazovets - Komela, Комела (would become important monastic center with disciples of Sergiy)
Vesyegonsk - Ves Yogonskaya, Весь Ёгоньская (anachronism check)
Noginsk - Vokhna, Вохна (soviet name! Noginsk was a village called Rogozha) Vokhna was a private estate of I.Kalita and D.Donskoy, would later become Pavlov Posad)
Tutaev - Romanov (soviet name!)
Bolshoe Selo - Borisoglebsk (random village to local city)
Kadui - Andoga (anachronism check)
Volokolamsk - Volok Lamsky (anachronism check, "Volok" would fit even better)
Grad Mersky - Galich (also called Galich Mersky, but Galich is both very recognizable and important - should be an own prov center+ in Russian sources it is a part of Galich-Dmitrov principality which will break into Galich and Dmitrov principalities in 1330-th), Kostroma, Galich and Dmitrov should be different areas)
Zaozyerye - Kubena, Кубена (after a lake and river and area + old Spas Kamenny monastery can be represented here)
Alexandrov - Sloboda? (or Alexandrovskaya Sloboda) City of Alexandrov is anachronism, but Sloboda was an important place of princes and tsars vacations)
Shenkursk - Vaga, Вага (it would become Shenkursk in the 17-18 century, Vaga should be very important center, adj from it - Vazhsky)
Babaevo - Suda, Суда (anachronism check)
Bezhetsk - Bezhichi, Бужичи (anachronism check)
Soligalich - Sol' Galichskaya, Соль Галичьская
Khoza - Kizema (idk that Khoza is, couldn't find anywhere)
Koryazhma - Sol' Vychegodskaya, Соль Вычегодская
Limenda - Kotlas (Pyras in komi)
Omutninsk - ?? (it's still complete anachronism, which even have own province)
Cherepovets - Cherepoves, Череповесь (ves = veps)
Yagnitsa - Lukoves, Луковесь (random village into important trade center)
Likhoslavl - Mednoye (anachronism check)
Bronnitsy - examine, may be it is anachronism and better to change for Kolomenskoye
Stupino? (south-east of Moscow) - Talezh (anachronism check)
Kurovskoe - Klyazma, Клязьма (flavour instead of a random village)

Khoza - Ustye (historical region name)
Zanyukhcha - Zavolochye (From random village to historical region name, which means after Volok, meaning you a entering savage lands)
Porog - Ystyug (Veliky Ystyug is very important, Porog is a random village). Also title Veliky was given by Ivan IV.
Galich should have an own prov, take it from Soligalich
Yftyuga - Yaren (historical region name)

Vologda probably should be its own area
Perm Malaya ("little Perm") or Perm Vychegodskaya or Vychegda-Vym can be used to name region of northern komi area (may rename and rearrange Ust Sysola)

Unsolvable for me... there are still russian names in the tatar steppe. And with such high granularity... It's hard to find anything in the wild steppe to rename Petrovsk or Bogatoye or Beloretsk after(
I mostly touched provinces near Moscow/ Russian North where player would colonise at early stage/in the north-east frontier where player would fight\convert permiyaks.

Great work, Tinto! It's hard to name stuff in the middle of nowhere 700 years ago...

Also found this map of Moscow in XIV century: https://retromap.ru/show_pid.php?pid=g2921
 
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Russia Uralic Final Fixed.png


I'm finally done with my Cultural map rework, it only took me 10 hours of work! It's as perfect as I can make it, but there's still some ambiguity in some areas, so I'll add a disclaimer if I think something is in any way ambiguous. I've also made this map without changing any locations, terrain, or any other map because that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Also, I've added the original map to the bottom of this post, so make sure to check it for comparison. So without further a due, let's get into the changes:

The first change is completely changing the position of Mari culture, in the original map all of the western Mari lands were made Muscovite, while huge Mari exclaves existed further east. That setup is anachronistic, as the Eastern Mari pockets only arose in 1552 when the the Mari were conquered by the Russians, with many fleeing east to avoid forced christinisation. So I've moved the Mari back to their homeland, although there should be an event where after a Russian conquest many Mari will flee east.

The next change is the Chuvash, who were hugely underrepresented originally, the Chuvash are descended from the Volga Bulgars, specifically the ones that didn't convert to Islam; they also speak an Oghuric language, which is mutually unintelligible with Kazani. Even today Chuvash make up the vast majority in Chuvashia and having several isolated pockets throughout the Volga region. As a final note on the Chuvash, in the original map they were only present as a minority in several locations, however those locations don't actually have any significant Chuvash population and never did, so I don't know why they had Chuvash minorities.

The next change is that I've overhauled the entire Komi-Udmurt border, originally the Komi made up the majority in the Vyatska region, despite the region being majority majority Udmurt until it was Rusified. I've also made Komi the majority in Perm and the lands to the east of it, as it was majority Komi and was never Udmurt to begin with. I based the border mostly on these maps Komi Map Great Perm Map.

Next up we have the Erzya, who are a Mordvin people who were only present in their eastern pocket in the original map, despite most Erzya living in Mordvinia to the west. I've also expanded them outside of Mordvinia slightly as those lands were not Rusified yet, including that little pocket to the south. I've also shifted the eastern pocket to the west by making the border the border follow the Reka river for the most part, as the Erzya lived west of that river.

The Moksha are the other extant Mordvin people, living in the regions described by these maps 2010 Census map Mordvin Language Map, also yes I checked the older censuses and other records and the Moksha have mostly stayed the same for as long as I can tell. They also have a minority pocket in the Kazani lands, which was present in the original map, nut it was the only Moksha location for some reason, it was also one location off, so I've shifted it to where it should be.

Then we have the Meschera, who may have been a Permic people or a Mordvin people, their language is poorly attested but their settlements aren't. They used to be the majority of the population in much of Ryazan oblast, however after the Mongol invasion their numbers significantly declined and they were forced into the swamps north of the Oka river, until they were eventually Rusified in a slow process over the next few centuries.

Next up are the Vepsians also known as just the Veps; who were only present in their modern majority areas in the original map, just shifted slightly to the east. But as it turns out the Veps used to be the majority along almost the entire coast of Onega, except for the north coast, which was mostly Karelian. I've also kept them as a minority in Belozeero as they would remain a large minority there before migrating south to Tver.

As for the Bashkir, they haven't had that many changes, I expanded them into some former Mari lands roughly along the modern border with the Tatars, I couldn't find any sources earlier than the first Russian census, in which the Tatar-Bashkir divide is roughly the same as it is today.

I've also added the Ungri, also spelt as Ungari, who were a Magyar people never migrated into the Pannonian basin, it's a misconception that the early Magyars were a homogonous group, with them being comprised of many different tribes, some of them Ungri, some Bashkir, some Khazar rebels, the Pannonian Avars and some Mari and Mordvin migrants as well. But the most important set of tribes were the Ungri tribes, who led the Mogyer confederation and were the tribe to speak the main descendent of the Magyar language. With all of this being said, there is a bit of ambiguity as to when the Ungri culture went extinct, because supposedly it went extinct in the 14th century, but I couldn't find anything more specific. So I've depicted them as being the minority in their homelands, with Bashkirs making up the majority as the Ungri culture went extinct when they integrated into Bashkir culture, which started around the 10th century and ended with them being fully integrated by the 14th century.

Which means that at game start the Ungri culture is almost extinct at game start, so I'm also proposing an achievement for the Ungri culture (yes I know that you haven't made the achievements yet). You see in CK3 there is an achievment called "Álmos There", which involves conquering Hungary and converting to Christianity as Álmos. So for PC I thing there should be an "Álmos There Again" achievement, where as an Ungrian tag you have to conquer all of Hungary and then convert to Christianity, in that order. Which would make this a pretty difficult achievement, but a fun one.

On a separate note I also expanded the Khanty/Mansi culture in a former Mari pocket, as it was primarily inhabited by the Khanty and Mansi peoples; who seem to be one culture in PC for now?

Lastly I've overhauled eastern Arkhangelsk oblast, as it was Vepsian in the original map and had Nenets pockets way too far south. The reason that there were Vepsians originally was that they were meant to represent the Bjarm culture, which is mostly unattested but may have been related to Vepsian. But that's not the best option as they were completely seperate cultures and it would be just as bad to have Dalmatian culture be represented by Romanian culture, just because they're related. For that reason Bjarm should be made it's own culture. I also extended the Bjarm to the sea as they were noted to also live along the coast by Nordic explorers, along with that I've moved the Nenets north, as the western Nenets only ever lived along the coast.

The Pomors were also included in this rework as I extened Pomor culture to include the Russians of Perm, as the Pomors used to be a much larger group as they were basically the "Northen Cossacks", whith them migrating east along the northern coast of Siberia and founding many cities along the rivers that flow into the Arctic sea. Also Arkhangelsk, shouldn't actually be a thing at game star, as it was founded in 1584, so the location should be renamed and a "Founding of Arkhangelsk" event should be added, similar to EU4. I also added some Sámi pops to the Bjarmian coast, as Sámi graves were found along the coast there.

Edit: The Arkhangelsk rework is quite ambiguous, as there's hardly any sources and loads of the evidence comes from a select few archeological sites. I just forgot to say that originally, edit over.
And that will be all, I spent a long time on this map and I really hope it helps shape the region in PC, but it's not perfect and if anyone finds something wrong with the map, please tell me. Also here's the old map for comparison.

Russia cultures.png
 

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Opole is a small region of 70x30 km. Too small in relation to the large territory that was occupied by the Vladimir (Suzdal) principality.
Vladimir or Suzdal culture would be correct.
Modern Opole and 10th-16th century Opole are quite different in size and importance. Opole in the game time frame spreads further south and east, opposing modern Yurievo Opole. It should relatively be everything Russian to the south of where dense forests start. Its borderline in the North includes Vladimir-Moscow area, and its center should be based in Ryazan and Murom. Otherwise, historical Opole is traditionaly based on old Meryans land, which barely touches Ryazan and Murom, where Muroma people lived. I would say, main river flows in the area between Upper Volga and Oka plus everything until you reach Ryazan and Murom should be considered Opole at the time. Zalesye is more to the West and to the the East of this region, but two regions intercept in many cases.
 
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View attachment 1155963

I'm finally done with my Cultural map rework, it only took me 10 hours of work! It's as perfect as I can make it, but there's still some ambiguity in some areas, so I'll add a disclaimer if I think something is in any way ambiguous. I've also made this map without changing any locations, terrain, or any other map because that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Also, I've added the original map to the bottom of this post, so make sure to check it for comparison. So without further a due, let's get into the changes:

The first change is completely changing the position of Mari culture, in the original map all of the western Mari lands were made Muscovite, while huge Mari exclaves existed further east. That setup is anachronistic, as the Eastern Mari pockets only arose in 1552 when the the Mari were conquered by the Russians, with many fleeing east to avoid forced christinisation. So I've moved the Mari back to their homeland, although there should be an event where after a Russian conquest many Mari will flee east.

The next change is the Chuvash, who were hugely underrepresented originally, the Chuvash are descended from the Volga Bulgars, specifically the ones that didn't convert to Islam; they also speak an Oghuric language, which is mutually unintelligible with Kazani. Even today Chuvash make up the vast majority in Chuvashia and having several isolated pockets throughout the Volga region. As a final note on the Chuvash, in the original map they were only present as a minority in several locations, however those locations don't actually have any significant Chuvash population and never did, so I don't know why they had Chuvash minorities.

The next change is that I've overhauled the entire Komi-Udmurt border, originally the Komi made up the majority in the Vyatska region, despite the region being majority majority Udmurt until it was Rusified. I've also made Komi the majority in Perm and the lands to the east of it, as it was majority Komi and was never Udmurt to begin with. I based the border mostly on these maps Komi Map Great Perm Map.

Next up we have the Erzya, who are a Mordvin people who were only present in their eastern pocket in the original map, despite most Erzya living in Mordvinia to the west. I've also expanded them outside of Mordvinia slightly as those lands were not Rusified yet, including that little pocket to the south. I've also shifted the eastern pocket to the west by making the border the border follow the Reka river for the most part, as the Erzya lived west of that river.

The Moksha are the other extant Mordvin people, living in the regions described by these maps 2010 Census map Mordvin Language Map, also yes I checked the older censuses and other records and the Moksha have mostly stayed the same for as long as I can tell. They also have a minority pocket in the Kazani lands, which was present in the original map, nut it was the only Moksha location for some reason, it was also one location off, so I've shifted it to where it should be.

Then we have the Meschera, who may have been a Permic people or a Mordvin people, their language is poorly attested but their settlements aren't. They used to be the majority of the population in much of Ryazan oblast, however after the Mongol invasion their numbers significantly declined and they were forced into the swamps north of the Oka river, until they were eventually Rusified in a slow process over the next few centuries.

Next up are the Vepsians also known as just the Veps; who were only present in their modern majority areas in the original map, just shifted slightly to the east. But as it turns out the Veps used to be the majority along almost the entire coast of Onega, except for the north coast, which was mostly Karelian. I've also kept them as a minority in Belozeero as they would remain a large minority there before migrating south to Tver.

As for the Bashkir, they haven't had that many changes, I expanded them into some former Mari lands roughly along the modern border with the Tatars, I couldn't find any sources earlier than the first Russian census, in which the Tatar-Bashkir divide is roughly the same as it is today.

I've also added the Ungri, also spelt as Ungari, who were a Magyar people never migrated into the Pannonian basin, it's a misconception that the early Magyars were a homogonous group, with them being comprised of many different tribes, some of them Ungri, some Bashkir, some Khazar rebels, the Pannonian Avars and some Mari and Mordvin migrants as well. But the most important set of tribes were the Ungri tribes, who led the Mogyer confederation and were the tribe to speak the main descendent of the Magyar language. With all of this being said, there is a bit of ambiguity as to when the Ungri culture went extinct, because supposedly it went extinct in the 14th century, but I couldn't find anything more specific. So I've depicted them as being the minority in their homelands, with Bashkirs making up the majority as the Ungri culture went extinct when they integrated into Bashkir culture, which started around the 10th century and ended with them being fully integrated by the 14th century.

Which means that at game start the Ungri culture is almost extinct at game start, so I'm also proposing an achievement for the Ungri culture (yes I know that you haven't made the achievements yet). You see in CK3 there is an achievment called "Álmos There", which involves conquering Hungary and converting to Christianity as Álmos. So for PC I thing there should be an "Álmos There Again" achievement, where as an Ungrian tag you have to conquer all of Hungary and then convert to Christianity, in that order. Which would make this a pretty difficult achievement, but a fun one.

On a separate note I also expanded the Khanty/Mansi culture in a former Mari pocket, as it was primarily inhabited by the Khanty and Mansi peoples; who seem to be one culture in PC for now?

Lastly I've overhauled eastern Arkhangelsk oblast, as it was Vepsian in the original map and had Nenets pockets way too far south. The reason that there were Vepsians originally was that they were meant to represent the Bjarm culture, which is mostly unattested but may have been related to Vepsian. But that's not the best option as they were completely seperate cultures and it would be just as bad to have Dalmatian culture be represented by Romanian culture, just because they're related. For that reason Bjarm should be made it's own culture. I also extended the Bjarm to the sea as they were noted to also live along the coast by Nordic explorers, along with that I've moved the Nenets north, as the western Nenets only ever lived along the coast.

The Pomors were also included in this rework as I extened Pomor culture to include the Russians of Perm, as the Pomors used to be a much larger group as they were basically the "Northen Cossacks", whith them migrating east along the northern coast of Siberia and founding many cities along the rivers that flow into the Arctic sea. Also Arkhangelsk, shouldn't actually be a thing at game star, as it was founded in 1584, so the location should be renamed and a "Founding of Arkhangelsk" event should be added, similar to EU4. I also added some Sámi pops to the Bjarmian coast, as Sámi graves were found along the coast there.

And that will be all, I spent a long time on this map and I really hope it helps shape the region in PC, but it's not perfect and if anyone finds something wrong with the map, please tell me. Also here's the old map for comparison.

View attachment 1156007
Great work. One thing that bothers me is Kosmodemjansk being fully Chuvash. I think you can add stripes to it. I managed to find data only from 1897 (first Russian empire census), but it states 47% are Chuvash and 37% Mari. If your source is better I would love to look into it.
 
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Depends on what the devs consider "continental" or "arctic". You've got a point, but what we really need is more granularity than just those two categories. "Continental" already covers a vast stretch to Bohemia and Southern poland.

4. Adding more climates is non-trivial at this stage... We'll think about it.
Instead of more climate options or so, maybe something else should be added. Climate classification seems to be mostly about the kind of weather you get when.

I see there is an option for the Trewartha classification were they add something called universeel thermal scale to the classification, including information about the hottest and coldest months.

 
View attachment 1155963

I'm finally done with my Cultural map rework, it only took me 10 hours of work! It's as perfect as I can make it, but there's still some ambiguity in some areas, so I'll add a disclaimer if I think something is in any way ambiguous. I've also made this map without changing any locations, terrain, or any other map because that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Also, I've added the original map to the bottom of this post, so make sure to check it for comparison. So without further a due, let's get into the changes:

The first change is completely changing the position of Mari culture, in the original map all of the western Mari lands were made Muscovite, while huge Mari exclaves existed further east. That setup is anachronistic, as the Eastern Mari pockets only arose in 1552 when the the Mari were conquered by the Russians, with many fleeing east to avoid forced christinisation. So I've moved the Mari back to their homeland, although there should be an event where after a Russian conquest many Mari will flee east.

The next change is the Chuvash, who were hugely underrepresented originally, the Chuvash are descended from the Volga Bulgars, specifically the ones that didn't convert to Islam; they also speak an Oghuric language, which is mutually unintelligible with Kazani. Even today Chuvash make up the vast majority in Chuvashia and having several isolated pockets throughout the Volga region. As a final note on the Chuvash, in the original map they were only present as a minority in several locations, however those locations don't actually have any significant Chuvash population and never did, so I don't know why they had Chuvash minorities.

The next change is that I've overhauled the entire Komi-Udmurt border, originally the Komi made up the majority in the Vyatska region, despite the region being majority majority Udmurt until it was Rusified. I've also made Komi the majority in Perm and the lands to the east of it, as it was majority Komi and was never Udmurt to begin with. I based the border mostly on these maps Komi Map Great Perm Map.

Next up we have the Erzya, who are a Mordvin people who were only present in their eastern pocket in the original map, despite most Erzya living in Mordvinia to the west. I've also expanded them outside of Mordvinia slightly as those lands were not Rusified yet, including that little pocket to the south. I've also shifted the eastern pocket to the west by making the border the border follow the Reka river for the most part, as the Erzya lived west of that river.

The Moksha are the other extant Mordvin people, living in the regions described by these maps 2010 Census map Mordvin Language Map, also yes I checked the older censuses and other records and the Moksha have mostly stayed the same for as long as I can tell. They also have a minority pocket in the Kazani lands, which was present in the original map, nut it was the only Moksha location for some reason, it was also one location off, so I've shifted it to where it should be.

Then we have the Meschera, who may have been a Permic people or a Mordvin people, their language is poorly attested but their settlements aren't. They used to be the majority of the population in much of Ryazan oblast, however after the Mongol invasion their numbers significantly declined and they were forced into the swamps north of the Oka river, until they were eventually Rusified in a slow process over the next few centuries.

Next up are the Vepsians also known as just the Veps; who were only present in their modern majority areas in the original map, just shifted slightly to the east. But as it turns out the Veps used to be the majority along almost the entire coast of Onega, except for the north coast, which was mostly Karelian. I've also kept them as a minority in Belozeero as they would remain a large minority there before migrating south to Tver.

As for the Bashkir, they haven't had that many changes, I expanded them into some former Mari lands roughly along the modern border with the Tatars, I couldn't find any sources earlier than the first Russian census, in which the Tatar-Bashkir divide is roughly the same as it is today.

I've also added the Ungri, also spelt as Ungari, who were a Magyar people never migrated into the Pannonian basin, it's a misconception that the early Magyars were a homogonous group, with them being comprised of many different tribes, some of them Ungri, some Bashkir, some Khazar rebels, the Pannonian Avars and some Mari and Mordvin migrants as well. But the most important set of tribes were the Ungri tribes, who led the Mogyer confederation and were the tribe to speak the main descendent of the Magyar language. With all of this being said, there is a bit of ambiguity as to when the Ungri culture went extinct, because supposedly it went extinct in the 14th century, but I couldn't find anything more specific. So I've depicted them as being the minority in their homelands, with Bashkirs making up the majority as the Ungri culture went extinct when they integrated into Bashkir culture, which started around the 10th century and ended with them being fully integrated by the 14th century.

Which means that at game start the Ungri culture is almost extinct at game start, so I'm also proposing an achievement for the Ungri culture (yes I know that you haven't made the achievements yet). You see in CK3 there is an achievment called "Álmos There", which involves conquering Hungary and converting to Christianity as Álmos. So for PC I thing there should be an "Álmos There Again" achievement, where as an Ungrian tag you have to conquer all of Hungary and then convert to Christianity, in that order. Which would make this a pretty difficult achievement, but a fun one.

On a separate note I also expanded the Khanty/Mansi culture in a former Mari pocket, as it was primarily inhabited by the Khanty and Mansi peoples; who seem to be one culture in PC for now?

Lastly I've overhauled eastern Arkhangelsk oblast, as it was Vepsian in the original map and had Nenets pockets way too far south. The reason that there were Vepsians originally was that they were meant to represent the Bjarm culture, which is mostly unattested but may have been related to Vepsian. But that's not the best option as they were completely seperate cultures and it would be just as bad to have Dalmatian culture be represented by Romanian culture, just because they're related. For that reason Bjarm should be made it's own culture. I also extended the Bjarm to the sea as they were noted to also live along the coast by Nordic explorers, along with that I've moved the Nenets north, as the western Nenets only ever lived along the coast.

The Pomors were also included in this rework as I extened Pomor culture to include the Russians of Perm, as the Pomors used to be a much larger group as they were basically the "Northen Cossacks", whith them migrating east along the northern coast of Siberia and founding many cities along the rivers that flow into the Arctic sea. Also Arkhangelsk, shouldn't actually be a thing at game star, as it was founded in 1584, so the location should be renamed and a "Founding of Arkhangelsk" event should be added, similar to EU4. I also added some Sámi pops to the Bjarmian coast, as Sámi graves were found along the coast there.

And that will be all, I spent a long time on this map and I really hope it helps shape the region in PC, but it's not perfect and if anyone finds something wrong with the map, please tell me. Also here's the old map for comparison.

View attachment 1156007
Hello, please read the message ive left on this thread before about the cultural landscape of karelia, the map is almost correct
 
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Which is the power of Muscovy over Novgorod, being the Prince of Moscow also the one of Novgorod? Are there cases where you can be the nominal ruler of a country, but you extract and control nothing from it?
 
In fact, no furnaces were built in Russia until the 15th century. "Severe winters" appear after the Little Ice Age (16th-17th century). The Small Ice Age was preceded by a small climatic optimum (10th—13th century) - a period of relatively warm and even weather, mild winters and the absence of severe droughts. This was one of the reasons for the dominance of the Mongol Empire. And one of the reasons for the fall of the Golden Horde is also the deterioration of the climate. In 1337, the "Arctic" climate could not yet exist!!!
I figured this was part of it, that the little ice age wasn't really at its peak, but I'm also wondering if the game will have the climate change once it does get to the peak.
Never thought about that before though, even more reason for the game to portray it since they are going to be including the dynamic with the golden horde
 
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View attachment 1155963

I'm finally done with my Cultural map rework, it only took me 10 hours of work! It's as perfect as I can make it, but there's still some ambiguity in some areas, so I'll add a disclaimer if I think something is in any way ambiguous. I've also made this map without changing any locations, terrain, or any other map because that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Also, I've added the original map to the bottom of this post, so make sure to check it for comparison. So without further a due, let's get into the changes:

The first change is completely changing the position of Mari culture, in the original map all of the western Mari lands were made Muscovite, while huge Mari exclaves existed further east. That setup is anachronistic, as the Eastern Mari pockets only arose in 1552 when the the Mari were conquered by the Russians, with many fleeing east to avoid forced christinisation. So I've moved the Mari back to their homeland, although there should be an event where after a Russian conquest many Mari will flee east.

The next change is the Chuvash, who were hugely underrepresented originally, the Chuvash are descended from the Volga Bulgars, specifically the ones that didn't convert to Islam; they also speak an Oghuric language, which is mutually unintelligible with Kazani. Even today Chuvash make up the vast majority in Chuvashia and having several isolated pockets throughout the Volga region. As a final note on the Chuvash, in the original map they were only present as a minority in several locations, however those locations don't actually have any significant Chuvash population and never did, so I don't know why they had Chuvash minorities.

The next change is that I've overhauled the entire Komi-Udmurt border, originally the Komi made up the majority in the Vyatska region, despite the region being majority majority Udmurt until it was Rusified. I've also made Komi the majority in Perm and the lands to the east of it, as it was majority Komi and was never Udmurt to begin with. I based the border mostly on these maps Komi Map Great Perm Map.

Next up we have the Erzya, who are a Mordvin people who were only present in their eastern pocket in the original map, despite most Erzya living in Mordvinia to the west. I've also expanded them outside of Mordvinia slightly as those lands were not Rusified yet, including that little pocket to the south. I've also shifted the eastern pocket to the west by making the border the border follow the Reka river for the most part, as the Erzya lived west of that river.

The Moksha are the other extant Mordvin people, living in the regions described by these maps 2010 Census map Mordvin Language Map, also yes I checked the older censuses and other records and the Moksha have mostly stayed the same for as long as I can tell. They also have a minority pocket in the Kazani lands, which was present in the original map, nut it was the only Moksha location for some reason, it was also one location off, so I've shifted it to where it should be.

Then we have the Meschera, who may have been a Permic people or a Mordvin people, their language is poorly attested but their settlements aren't. They used to be the majority of the population in much of Ryazan oblast, however after the Mongol invasion their numbers significantly declined and they were forced into the swamps north of the Oka river, until they were eventually Rusified in a slow process over the next few centuries.

Next up are the Vepsians also known as just the Veps; who were only present in their modern majority areas in the original map, just shifted slightly to the east. But as it turns out the Veps used to be the majority along almost the entire coast of Onega, except for the north coast, which was mostly Karelian. I've also kept them as a minority in Belozeero as they would remain a large minority there before migrating south to Tver.

As for the Bashkir, they haven't had that many changes, I expanded them into some former Mari lands roughly along the modern border with the Tatars, I couldn't find any sources earlier than the first Russian census, in which the Tatar-Bashkir divide is roughly the same as it is today.

I've also added the Ungri, also spelt as Ungari, who were a Magyar people never migrated into the Pannonian basin, it's a misconception that the early Magyars were a homogonous group, with them being comprised of many different tribes, some of them Ungri, some Bashkir, some Khazar rebels, the Pannonian Avars and some Mari and Mordvin migrants as well. But the most important set of tribes were the Ungri tribes, who led the Mogyer confederation and were the tribe to speak the main descendent of the Magyar language. With all of this being said, there is a bit of ambiguity as to when the Ungri culture went extinct, because supposedly it went extinct in the 14th century, but I couldn't find anything more specific. So I've depicted them as being the minority in their homelands, with Bashkirs making up the majority as the Ungri culture went extinct when they integrated into Bashkir culture, which started around the 10th century and ended with them being fully integrated by the 14th century.

Which means that at game start the Ungri culture is almost extinct at game start, so I'm also proposing an achievement for the Ungri culture (yes I know that you haven't made the achievements yet). You see in CK3 there is an achievment called "Álmos There", which involves conquering Hungary and converting to Christianity as Álmos. So for PC I thing there should be an "Álmos There Again" achievement, where as an Ungrian tag you have to conquer all of Hungary and then convert to Christianity, in that order. Which would make this a pretty difficult achievement, but a fun one.

On a separate note I also expanded the Khanty/Mansi culture in a former Mari pocket, as it was primarily inhabited by the Khanty and Mansi peoples; who seem to be one culture in PC for now?

Lastly I've overhauled eastern Arkhangelsk oblast, as it was Vepsian in the original map and had Nenets pockets way too far south. The reason that there were Vepsians originally was that they were meant to represent the Bjarm culture, which is mostly unattested but may have been related to Vepsian. But that's not the best option as they were completely seperate cultures and it would be just as bad to have Dalmatian culture be represented by Romanian culture, just because they're related. For that reason Bjarm should be made it's own culture. I also extended the Bjarm to the sea as they were noted to also live along the coast by Nordic explorers, along with that I've moved the Nenets north, as the western Nenets only ever lived along the coast.

The Pomors were also included in this rework as I extened Pomor culture to include the Russians of Perm, as the Pomors used to be a much larger group as they were basically the "Northen Cossacks", whith them migrating east along the northern coast of Siberia and founding many cities along the rivers that flow into the Arctic sea. Also Arkhangelsk, shouldn't actually be a thing at game star, as it was founded in 1584, so the location should be renamed and a "Founding of Arkhangelsk" event should be added, similar to EU4. I also added some Sámi pops to the Bjarmian coast, as Sámi graves were found along the coast there.

And that will be all, I spent a long time on this map and I really hope it helps shape the region in PC, but it's not perfect and if anyone finds something wrong with the map, please tell me. Also here's the old map for comparison.

View attachment 1156007
The Udmurts should be constrained mostly in the Vyatka-Kama interfluve and not reach so far north. As for Bjarmians archaeological research on them is pretty poor, but Lower reaches of Northern Dvina is where they are usually placed instead of Mezen which was settled by the Permian Vanvizdin culture and thus should be Komi. Mari could reach all the way to the Vetluga to the west. Zavolochye Chud' could be in the upper reaches of Northern Dvina. Also I would like to know if Meschera really were still a thing as late as this time period. Nenets should also not reach so far south in the Pechora basin. I don't know if naming the Belaya river Ugrics Ungri would be a good idea since the exonym comes from the association of Hungarians with Huns in the Pannonian basin where their cousins ended up in. Perhaps they should be named simply Magyar or Chiyalik as pointed out earlier here. Mansi are the more westernly group of the Siberian Ugrics. Also should there be Erzya in the east this early on?
 
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I figured this was part of it, that the little ice age wasn't really at its peak, but I'm also wondering if the game will have the climate change once it does get to the peak.
Never thought about that before though, even more reason for the game to portray it since they are going to be including the dynamic with the golden horde
Good point on the issue of long-term climate change. Given the devs want to simulate the collapse of Norse Greenland, it would be great if the shift from the Medieval Warm Period to the Little Ice Age could be fully represented everywhere, and not just a unique modifier to Greenland.
 
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A.A. Zaliznyak developes idea of two dialect types: Northwestern (Novgorod-Pskov) and Soth-Eastern (Everything else), which fell apart ~12-14th century. Yuriy Shevelov is clearly a biased source, as he was a member of OUN. I can not find anything regarding Tsaruk's monograph, but would like to find out what it's about, if you do not mind. Zaliznyak is, in my opinion, much better authority in this case. He is a main researcher of Old Novgorodian dialect and a great expert in Old Russian language. Eastern slavic languages are really interintelligible, as they consist of 70-80% similar words with basically identical language rules. In times of Kyivan Rus' and some time after Mongol Invasion they were a part of one dialect continuum.

Cultural division should be
Language-based:
Old Novgorodian, Ruthenian (based on spread of Ruthenian language) even though it is too early for such a fast development in its spread and consolidation, and Russian with same problem.
Ruthenian and Russian should also be divided on regional basis, since Ruthenian langauge is just a writing system and consolidation of South-Western and Western dialects, not a separate linguistic entity, and Russian is just a condolidation of dialects of different forms too.

Seat-of-ower-based:
Galych, Volhynia, Kyiv, Chernihyv, Minsk, Polotsk, Smolensk, Novgorod, Murom-Ryazan, Vladimir-Suzdal

Region-based:
Polesian, Podniprovian, Podolian, Galychian, Volhynian, Severian, White Russian, Black Russian, Zalesian, Opolian, Pomorian, Novgorodian

or anything in between.
Shevelov is a recognized researcher in his scientific field, and membership in a Ukrainian political organization in itself cannot refute his scientific research or testify to his bias. Because in this way we can get to the point that the French can study the history of the French language, the Czechs - the history of the Czech language, but only the history of the Ukrainian language can be studied by anyone, except the Ukrainians themselves, because they are by definition biased. There must be some scientific arguments for this. After all, Shevelov was objective when he criticized the works of Smal-Stotskiy, who proved the origin of Ukrainian directly from Proto-Slavic, but using the wrong methodology and out-of-context comparisons.

In general, I do not see anything implausible in the version supported by a part of linguists, that the various Slavic tribes in the vast territory from Novgorod in the north and the Carpathians in the south did not have a single common spoken language.

I do not doubt Zaliznyak's professionalism, but I do not know how closely he researched the medieval Slavic dialects in the territory of modern Ukraine (in comparison with Shevelov and other linguists who closely researched this topic). As far as I understand from the Russian Wikipedia article on the Old Novgorod dialect, which refers to Zaliznyak, according to his research, the Novgorod dialect developed separately and independently of the Old East Slavic language. This already contradicts the concept of the Old East Slavic language, which was supposedly the only one for all Eastern Slavs (for the people of Novgorod, as we can see, it was not).

Tsaruk's book is here, in Ukrainian (in pdf format) - https://elibrary.kdpu.edu.ua/xmlui/handle/0564/897
In general, Tsaruk has a rather innovative approach to the history of Slavic languages, which is interesting in itself, regardless of whether you agree with it.

In short, in his opinion, the single Proto-Slavic language split into 2 branches, which he conventionally calls "Antian" and "Slovenian". These two branches later mixed with each other in different, often distant from each other territories, where the Slavs settled (for example, toponyms derived from the name of the East Slavic tribe Dulibs are found in the Czech Republic, and in Macedonia there are known Drugovity, the name of which is related to the tribe of Dregovichi in present-day Belarus). As a result, each Slavic language contains one or another percentage of elements of both branches. The "Antian" element is most evident in such languages as Ukrainian, Polish, Slovak, Czech, and Belarusian. The "Slovenian" element prevails in Old Church Slavonic, Russian and Bulgarian.
 
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