• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
  • 158Like
  • 67Love
  • 6
  • 6
  • 5
Reactions:
  • 5Like
  • 1
Reactions:
@Pollllo Do you mind explaining why you are downvoting literally every single message in this thread for six pages straight?

Edit: Seems to be a Polish nationalist who has only posted a few times in the HOI4 forum and hasn't logged on to the forum for months. Started downvoting every post the moment the thread released and has kept up ever since. I understand that he is probably protesting Russia or something in his mind, but he makes no distinction between posts suggesting more or less Russification or more diversity or less diversity in Russian cultures. I think this is a very bad faith use of the Respectfully Disagree feature and this kind of trolling should not be allowed, even though I am not trying to act on behalf of the moderators I want everyone to know the one respectfully disagree on every post is him.
 
Last edited:
  • 31
  • 7
  • 6Like
  • 2Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
Thank you for answering my questions Pavia! Glad there are plans for further checks and toponymies.

3. Do these "calculations" pertain to as yet unrevealed mechanics, or is this for some dry technical reason that doesn't matter to gameplay? If the latter I want to hear it anyway, I like hearing about quirks under the hood.

3. "non-trivial" in the sense of "it would require a massive amount of research that throws off the content designer's schedules", or in the sense of "the number of different climates is hard-coded and introducing one more requires overhauling the codebase"? I hope it is just the former, for the sake of modders if nothing else. Either way though, I understand if it's not a team priority.
3. Technical reasons, maybe @Johan has some time available to explain it (I'm not sure what can already be talked about, and what is still a 'secret matter').
4. It's not hardcoded, but adding more layers of climate, topography or vegetation is the non-trivial part, as we already have hundreds of different combinations, that affect several other parts of the game's development.
 
  • 28Like
  • 9
  • 2
Reactions:
sighs at animists and other broad catagorizations like that. If the Russians are orthodox and not Abrahamic or Monotheists then the others should get their own religious tradition too. Especially since there are still people who practice these traditions today. For the various people here are some of my thoughts on the spots shown:

  • Mari: Čimarii jüla
  • Udmot: Inmarism
  • Komi: Važesköm
  • Vespian: Could be Ukonusko, IIRC their mythology and tradition is closer to the Finns then other Uralic people.
  • Nenets: Similar how there is Sami Shamanism there should be Nenets Shamanism.
  • Erzyra: Mastor or Mastorava or Erzań Pazneń Oznomate I think could work.
 
  • 16Like
  • 6
  • 4
  • 3
  • 1Love
Reactions:
We usually take into account linguistics for cultural division. So, 'Novgorodian' portrays the 'Northern dialects' of Eastern Rus, 'Muscovite' the 'Central dialects', and 'Severian' the 'Southern dialects'. But take this as an open answer; I think that there might be reasons to unify the culture into 'Russian', and also to further subdivide it (as another person pointed out on the previous page); we'll review all the informed opinions on the matter after a while, and make a decision regarding that that feel appropriate both for historical and game-logical reasons. Thanks for the input, by the way. ;)
On this matter, I would recommend works of prof. Andrey Zaliznyak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Zaliznyak) who was an expert on Russian dialects (especially Old Novgorodian). Among other topics, he studied how the dialects interacted with each other, so the standard Russian grammar/morphology is, in fact, an amalgamation of both Non-Northern (i.e. Central/Southern, which are closer to each other than to Northern) and Northern dialect groups.
 
  • 5Like
  • 5
  • 4
Reactions:
You find notion that there was single unified culture on lands 1000 km long more historically accurate than what was presented? In medieval world where neighboring village can speak different dialect because fastest way for peasant to travel is his own two legs and there is not much in communication department?
The idea that there exists some primeval Russian culture that's been brewing for millenia, then divided by (decadent naturally) outsiders, only to be unified and brought back to it's original and only natural state by benevolent despots bringing salvation and prosperity is just... hilarious.

But also completely ahistorical. The state of Russia was never the teleological outcome of the Eastern Slavic region being ruled under one central power. Styling one selves as Russia is litterally just an imperialist strategy (as so many others in the day) claiming Rus' heritage to legitimize expansion. Novogorod might've claimed Rus' or viking heritage and styled themselves as what ever. If the Severians achieved hegemony they might've styled themselves... Severia. Or Russia. But neither is a given.
 
  • 15
  • 14
  • 2Like
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
On this matter, I would recommend works of prof. Andrey Zaliznyak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Zaliznyak) who was an expert on Russian dialects (especially Old Novgorodian). Among other topics, he studied how the dialects interacted with each other, so the standard Russian grammar is, in fact, an amalgamation of both Non-Northern (i.e. Central/Southern, which are closer to each other than to Nothern) and Northern dialect groups.
Fully agree. I love his lectures about the language!
 
  • 5Like
  • 2
Reactions:
sighs at animists and other broad catagorizations like that. If the Russians are orthodox and not Abrahamic or Monotheists then the others should get their own religious tradition too. Especially since there are still people who practice these traditions today. For the various people here are some of my thoughts on the spots shown:

  • Mari: Čimarii jüla
  • Udmot: Inmarism
  • Komi: Važesköm
  • Vespian: Could be Ukonusko, IIRC their mythology and tradition is closer to the Finns then other Uralic people.
  • Nenets: Similar how there is Sami Shamanism there should be Nenets Shamanism.
  • Erzyra: Mastor or Mastorava or Erzań Pazneń Oznomate I think could work.
I think Uralic Shamanism, Finnic Shamanism and Siberian Shamanism could work as a more broad strokes alternative.
 
  • 14Like
  • 7
Reactions:
Two things:
1. If Russia unifies, it should also unify the culture. Idk what cultures are consistent of in PC, but it should matter who unifies the Russia. If it Novgorod, then Novgorodian things should be the core of Russian culture/state, if Muscovy, then Muscovian.
2. Location of Neva, where St. Petersburg will be is notorious for being a marshland. Tos this day St. Petersburg is being mocked (in a joking way) to being built on a swamp. So the terrain of nearby St. Petersburg should reflect this thing.

EDIT: Please be notified to use proper transliteration of Russian names. Because if you will transliterate Семён as Semen again, not Semyon (or Semjon), then that'll be sad, considering the effort that was put into the research
How this culture unification would work logically? All people suddenly get replaced by aliens? Or they receive email with instructions how they should speak and live in certain way?
 
  • 5Haha
  • 2
Reactions:
In cases like this where market access is really bad, what are the downsides to simply creating a bunch of markets with better access? Is it costly in some way?
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
sighs at animists and other broad catagorizations like that. If the Russians are orthodox and not Abrahamic or Monotheists then the others should get their own religious tradition too. Especially since there are still people who practice these traditions today. For the various people here are some of my thoughts on the spots shown:

  • Mari: Čimarii jüla
  • Udmot: Inmarism
  • Komi: Važesköm
  • Vespian: Could be Ukonusko, IIRC their mythology and tradition is closer to the Finns then other Uralic people.
  • Nenets: Similar how there is Sami Shamanism there should be Nenets Shamanism.
  • Erzyra: Mastor or Mastorava or Erzań Pazneń Oznomate I think could work.
Čimarii jüla just means "Mari religion" in Mari. Also, a lot of those are the names of neopagan movements. I think they're just going with "[ethnic group] Paganism/Shamanism" unless there's a more fitting name. The plan is to eventually fully split all the Animist and Shamanist groups into more unique religions, as stated.
 
  • 7
  • 6Like
Reactions:
The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case).
Is this a sort of 'one off' situation that is just the way things are at game's start, or is it possible during normal gameplay for Republics (at least certain types of Republics) to elect leaders from other countries? If the latter, it sounds like an interesting way for Republics to play.
 
  • 4Like
  • 4
Reactions: