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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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This is not bad, though Smaliensk (Smolensk) was a Belarusian (Ruthenian as it would be in 1337) speaking city until it was fully Russified in the 19th and 20th centuries. Severian would be better served if it wasn't implied to be a Russian (that is Muscovite) culture, and rather it was presented as a proper predecessor to the Belarusians and Ukrainians that would be Russified by Muscovy by the 20th century, if not earlier.
Severian is considered a different culture to Muscovite.
 
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Is it possible for cultures to "merge"? Like, if you unify Russia, is it possible for Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian cultures to become Russian culture over time?
 
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1) Is Ludic a part of Veps culture, part of Karelian culture or separate? I recommend changing "Vepsian" to Veps.
2) Do you have anyone on the team familiar with the Karelian, Ludic & Veps province & location names? If not, here are some people to contact: University of Eastern Finland https://blogs.uef.fi/karjalanelvytys/yhteystiedot/, Journal de la Société Finno-Ougrienne (also useful for more accurate naming for other Uralic languages) https://journal.fi/susa/about/contact, and Karjalan Sivistysseura/Vallissussebra/Valgištuzsiebr https://www.karjalansivistysseura.fi/yhteystiedot/
3) Somewhat related to this topic, I'd like suggest a Frontier mechanic: Provinces bordering a neighbouring polity get a control penalty among maybe some other debuff, until a certain level of tech and/or centralization is reached with some exceptions, for example the border between Sweden and Novgorod which was one of the few well defined borders at this point in time.
 
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couple of questions: whats with the weird Pskov shape? what was the process that led the team to add "Severian" culture? and lastly how dificult would it be to unify the Russian principalities?
 
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Beautiful post! I read somewhere in a previous TT that you guys want to make Project Caesar to follow a mostly historical path for the most time, so I'm expecting in the end a big and powerful Russia to be the norm in this region. I've got a few questions that I hope you may give some clarity to.

1. Will you guarantee that Muscovy, despite its size at the game start, be the top dog and eventually form Russia, like the Ottomans in Anatolia are expected to success most of the times? or will it be eclipsed by Novgorod or other foes even if it's the Grand Prince?

2. Will the game simulate the decline and eventual partitions of the Commonwealth? In EU4, the PLC is ridiculously overpowered and in most games AI Russia stagnates and is incapable of advancing westwards.

3. Will the Conquest of Siberia be slightly different from normal colonisation? As real-life Russia's expansion to the east was relatively fast.

4. Maybe this is asking too much, but is there any chance that you can add the Volga river physically? (Game-speaking, in the form of a lake) It would add visual detail to a massive portion of the map that most of the times will be homogeneous, and it could also be interesting from a tactical point of view, as you can create chokepoints in the crossing sections.
1. Muscovy starts in a strong position to become the 'historical winner', but it's in an open situation, with Novgorod being the other important Russian power, and the Golden Horde still being the hegemon to the south (although it may collapse, as historically happened, of course).

2. Poland and Lithuania will have some curve balls depending on how they behave, and formation of the Commonwealth is not guaranteed; we aren't portraying the 18th partition, though, as that would make little sense.

3. There will be some common and some unique features of the conquest and colonization of Siberia.

4. It's not in the plans, sorry.
 
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Do rivers facilitate the spread of market access in PC ? In every tinto maps so far it has been hard to say if it's the case and here it's also the case. If it's not implemented, is it something you plan on putting in the game ?
Yes, they impact it, although it will be more clearly defined after the summer (we have some planned tweaks on that).
 
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Glad to see plenty of new cultures that couldnt make it to EU4, like Udmurt, Komi, Nenets, Vepsian, Mari and Erzya, but they seem shifted eastwards for some reason? I'm also curious why the Finnic people of the Dvina Basin are shown as Vepsian, wouldn't a Bjarmian culture make more sense?
We'll check this, thanks.
 
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Some consideration:

Maybe add a mountain tile or two where the Urals are supposed to be in my opinion. Also maybe have the resources clustered in areas of focal points, such as the Urals or other locations. I am more curious if the resources will alter population density, especially in "Russia" away from historical populated areas?
 
Last edited:
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Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
View attachment 1154677
Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

View attachment 1154678
The starting diplomatic of Muscovy, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
View attachment 1154695
Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
View attachment 1154683
We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
View attachment 1154684
The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
View attachment 1154685
View attachment 1154686
View attachment 1154687
Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
View attachment 1154688
Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
View attachment 1154689
Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
View attachment 1154691
Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
View attachment 1154965
The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
View attachment 1154693
View attachment 1154984
View attachment 1154985

View attachment 1154987
View attachment 1154990
Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
Can you show the map of the Tatar yoke Organization? On the TT about it, I think not all nations were correctly assigned. For example, the Prince of Nizhny Novgorod was elected by Uzbeg Khan in 1341.
 
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I'm surprised how little marshes we have seen in Russia and earlier in Poland/Lithuania. If I remember correctly just in XIX century about 800000 square miles of such terrain were reclaimed by drainage in Russian Empire. Here we got barely like 150000 of those and I doubt more of them magically appeared between XIV and XIX century.
I guess that we'll receive feedback to put some more marshes on specific places on the map, then. ;)
 
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So the uncolonized locations are the part of markerts, I've just noticed this. So they are going to participate in market trade as well as colonized, right?
Yes, but more on this in future Tinto Talks.
 
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Oh yeah another question, what are the criteria for deciding what areas are impassable wasteland and what are not? Mountains make sense, but are the forest wastelands in Russia because of low population or something similar? The White Karelian wasteland looks like it exists to also help Sweden form historical borders with Russia, as the wasteland's western border seems to follow those.
 
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Beautiful post! I read somewhere in a previous TT that you guys want to make Project Caesar to follow a mostly historical path for the most time, so I'm expecting in the end a big and powerful Russia to be the norm in this region. I've got a few questions that I hope you may give some clarity to.

1. Will you guarantee that Muscovy, despite its size at the game start, be the top dog and eventually form Russia, like the Ottomans in Anatolia are expected to success most of the times? or will it be eclipsed by Novgorod or other foes even if it's the Grand Prince?

2. Will the game simulate the decline and eventual partitions of the Commonwealth? In EU4, the PLC is ridiculously overpowered and in most games AI Russia stagnates and is incapable of advancing westwards.

3. Will the Conquest of Siberia be slightly different from normal colonisation? As real-life Russia's expansion to the east was relatively fast.

4. Maybe this is asking too much, but is there any chance that you can add the Volga river physically? (Game-speaking, in the form of a lake) It would add visual detail to a massive portion of the map that most of the times will be homogeneous, and it could also be interesting from a tactical point of view, as you can create chokepoints in the crossing sections.
Didn’t Russian colonisation mainly follow rivers, and as such some native groups didn’t realise they were/weren’t nominally under Russian rule?
 
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Will there be a way to unify Russian - if not East Slavic - cultures, or are we gonna be stuck with Severians, Novgorodians and Muscovites until 1836?

Also, if not, would we be stuck with Muscovites living everywhere Russia expands, again, from Kamchatka to Crimea, or will we have some kind of mechanic that would create new cultures where Russian (East Slavic) people expand? E.g. Southern Russians, (Russian) Siberians, etc?
We will talk more about the culture mechanics in a future Tinto Maps.
 
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I don't have much to add, but to say that the diplomatic map looks ugly. The uncolonised areas look like they could be the sea, and the floating wastelands and lake bits in Finland are really hard to look at. Please, please, please have it so that uncolonised land is either all that browny beige of non-traversable, or the light blue we see in the political map.

1719581304793.png
 
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It seems like Finland is not colonized at the start. Is that correct? If yes, are there some sorts of events for its colonization, or could a colonizing country (f.e. spain) come in and colonize it, before the scandinavians claim it?
Most of it is not colonized yet, correct. And it will be possible to do it through mechanics, of which we'll talk more in future Tinto Talks.
 
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