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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

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Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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Unfortunately, there are few studies on climate, all sources that can be easily found in the public domain are either indirect (they explore another topic) or questionable (data is obtained by mathematical formulas). But still, climate has played an important role in history, provoking crop failures, wars and droughts. He played a very important role in Russian history, because of him there was a time of troubles. Therefore, it seems to me that a static climate reflects reality very poorly and a slightly hyperbolized dynamic version would look better:

temp.png


The results of H.H. Lamb's research. with my signatures for clarity of data with dates.

Izmtemp.png
There is a dubious mathematical study by H.H. Lamb. It describes the temperature change in central England, based on them and various climate maps over the last century, I just drew areas that are similar in displacement by ~ 0.5 degrees Celsius (annual temperature). I will continue to insist on this or some similar version of the climate map.

Websites of online journals with research results:
https://www.britannica.com/event/Middle-Ages
https://koeppen-geiger.vu-wien.ac.at/shifts.htm
 
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Do rivers facilitate the spread of market access in PC ? In every tinto maps so far it has been hard to say if it's the case and here it's also the case. If it's not implemented, is it something you plan on putting in the game ?
I think WE NEED USABLE RIVERS and river-type ships. River transport is super important. Great rivers of the eastern Europe, Danube, Rhine, Elbe, Oder, Vistula or many smaller rivers who made non on shores cities main ports (for safety against pirates mostly) like Antwerpen, Sevilla, London etc. many great port\tradition cities were river ports, not next to the shores.
We need river transport system for great grain distribution from PLC to the Western Europe during XVI-XVIII century period or transposrt of good from deepths Russia to the Black or Caspian Seas.
It always boder me during EU4 gameplays, rivers are non existing feature.
 
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who is the ruler of Oreshek? Narimantas?(in a union with Polotsk?)
he was not a ruler.
Novgorod gave him income from these territories, without political power.
This was a common practice; the invited prince received income from a number of territories for the maintenance of the Druzhina.
he was present there personally only in 1333-1335, then left. And later the deal was terminated, because Novgorod did not receive military assistance from him.

It is wrong to single out this principality. Otherwise there will be an ahistorical Karelia with the Lithuanian dynasty.
 
then why Oreshek's dynasty is Gedinimid in 1337 in the game?
Because he was an invited prince in Novgorod, as opposed to Moscow. And nominally he was given a number of territories to feed.
Part of Karelia, Ingria and the city of Ladoga (more than one province as on the map).

Narimunt was a prince in Novgorod in 1333-1335, then he left.
Novgorod had been in conflict with Moscow since 1333, until it forcefully forced the recognition of the Moscow-Vladimir prince Semeon the Proud as the Novgorod prince in 1346.
Narimut did not help Novgorod in this war with Moscow.

From this, the authors concluded that a separate principality had emerged.
 
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russian wikipedia claims Narimantas gave control of Oreshek to his son Aleksander around 1335 sooo he should rule Oreshek..?
Until 1338, Alexander seemed to be his father's governor.
Here the question is in principle - what is a state in the mechanics of the game?
Novgorod-Swedish relations and wars have been studied.
Karelia Narimuntovich is a potentially ahistorical faction to which the rebels from Novgorod and Swedish Karelia will fall away, etc.
 
Regarding the "Vyatka" tag for which you couldn't find a dynasty, according to the Russian Wikipedia article, it was apparently a republic during this time period, so maybe it should be treated this way. (link: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вятская_республика)

Also Cherdyn seems to have only been a small town or even a temple during this time period, so it should probably be an OPM with a theocratic or republican government. (Russian Wikipedia link: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Чердынь#Основание_города)
 
Hi everyone i am very inexperience and not super knowledgable on Russian history but i was wondering if any of the more knowledgeable users like Kaspar Osraige, Slime99, Aquamancer or Dualninja thinks about the Yugra principalities and whether they are historical to add to the game as seen here.

1719777378158.png



Some wiki links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugra

Theyre english language too
 
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I want to suggest something about resources and I want you to take that seriously . Wax! Beekeeping! In Medieval Novgorod beekeeping was one of the main source of income from trade with Europe. Back then Wax was as important as gold. I think it would be important to add wax to the game and especially to Novgorod because it was a very significant resource in its economy.
 
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View attachment 1155176

why this region is skewed to the side? it should be more like this. And Kosmodemyansk is not part of it

View attachment 1155181
IIRC, traditionally Paradox have used a bunch of conic map projections glued together. In this case, the centre of the map is somewhere in West or Central Europe, and everything away from the reference location gets distorted.
E.g., look at the most common map of Russia & Soviet Union (e.g. https://www.britannica.com/place/Russia ): it stretches from 0 meridian to 180 meridian, and those meridians go left-right, not up-down. E.g. in Britannica map, Denmark & Sweden are skewed the same way.
 
Hi everyone i am very inexperience and not super knowledgable on Russian history but i was wondering if any of the more knowledgeable users like Kaspar Osraige, Slime99, Aquamancer or Dualninja thinks about the Yugra principalities and whether they are historical to add to the game as seen here.

View attachment 1156511


Some wiki links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugra

Theyre english language too
I'd say yes, but also no. They should be added to PC but not as a unified principality, as according to that Wikipedia article the principality was not centralised until the 15th century. I did a little digging through the sources that Wikipeda cites and it turns out that it was very closely tied to the neighboring Pelym principality. So much so that they often acted in unison and were dynastically linked. So if they were to be added they would probably be a decentralised tribal confederacy of various Khanty tribes led by the Pelym. But even then almost all of this is outside of the scope of this Tinto Maps as the Pelym just barely stretched across the Urals into European Russia.
 
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I want to suggest something about resources and I want you to take that seriously . Wax! Beekeeping! In Medieval Novgorod beekeeping was one of the main source of income from trade with Europe. Back then Wax was as important as gold. I think it would be important to add wax to the game and especially to Novgorod because it was a very significant resource in its economy.
i think this needs to be its own thread. you should make a post
 
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Map of dialects of the old russian language for the XIV century from the russian wikipedia. I didn't find the same one in english.

Purple shade - Novgorod (Northwestern) dialect
Dark Green is a Moscow (northeastern) dialect
Light Green is the central dialect
Orange is a southern dialect
Yellow is a southwestern dialect

Two kinds of dotted strokes are two kinds of written language. They generally coincide with the borders of the future Moscow Principality and Lithuania

In theory, the gradual disappearance of the central dialect was the reason for the collapse of the all-Russian identity.
 

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I know this might seem a bit absurd of an ask, but are there any Merya pops still lying about? Despite being completely assimilated in the Upper Volga region, there were still some Merya around Lake Galich in the 14th century according to the Life of Abraham of Galich, and apparently they were still around up until the 16th century, or even later according to some claims that say their language survived until the the early 1700s.

So, are there some Merya pops in the game?
 
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Map of dialects of the old russian language for the XIV century from the russian wikipedia. I didn't find the same one in english.

Purple shade - Novgorod (Northwestern) dialect
Dark Green is a Moscow (northeastern) dialect
Light Green is the central dialect
Orange is a southern dialect
Yellow is a southwestern dialect

Two kinds of dotted strokes are two kinds of written language. They generally coincide with the borders of the future Moscow Principality and Lithuania

In theory, the gradual disappearance of the central dialect was the reason for the collapse of the all-Russian identity.
Why do you think that the central dialect has disappeared? Why do you think that there was any kind of all-Russian identity at all? This is not so. There was always division; there was no all-Russian thing. Then there was no general information field as there is now, and the processes were very slow. And the peasants remained uneducated for a very long time. From this map we can conclude that the Seversk culture should be added to the Rusyn culture. In 1999, I was in several villages in the Smolensk region and they spoke Belarusian, it was a separate dialect, but it was definitely Belarusian.
 
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I am not a specialist in this era and region, but wouldn't it be better to divide them into northern, central and southern Ruthenians? only as a result of the player's actions, different cultures are distinguished from them, such as Russian Novgorodian or Ukrainian.
If we don't distinguish Pomeranians, Silesians, Lesserpolans and Greaterpolans in Poland, I don't think we should distinguish Ruthenians from Mokovians or Novgorodians.
 
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