Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

[Polesie Admiral]

PAGE 100 BABY

WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOO

View attachment 1217792

JOHAN, PAVIA, YOU CAN RELAESE THE FEEDBACK NOW

 

[bokorthedust]

(The fall of Rome was completed in 476)

 

[Makkasag]

Well, I agree with the continuity theory.

Yakub awaits, my son.

 

[ibvfteh]

By contrats, ibvfteh's whole theory began with "If we take into account that a lot of the Moldavian population will come after the start date. I propose this", essentially, the premise for his map is "if we take into account that the immigrationist theory is true" which (a) is a theory for which there still is no convincing evidence and (b) is not even the most mainstream theory among scholars, that would be the continuity theory.

Unfortunately No, This is not in fact, my position. I do not currently agree with immigrationist theory as it states

The competing immigrationist theory states that the Romanians' ethnogenesis commenced in the provinces south of the river (Danube) with Romanized local populations spreading through mountain refuges, both south to Greece and north through the Carpathian Mountains.

I do not argue that Transylvanian Vlahs migrated from the south

 

[Bomaxx]

BREAKING NEWS!!!

Leakers have revealed that a major shift has occurred at Tinto studios with their upcoming game.
The super secret project which goes by the name "Project Caeser", which at this point everyone has been lead to believe is a successor to the game Europa Universalis IV, has actually drastically changed course and after a top secret confidential leak was CONFIRMED minutes ago, it turns out the Project's official name is going to be BALKANS UNIVERSALIS!
No, you didn't read that wrong, it really is true! Rumours are circulating as to what could've possibly motivated the studio to take up such a radical and exclusionary decision, but after reaching out to the creators themselves we finally have answers to this burning question:
"After our team carefully analysed the thousands of posts and responses in the Balkans and Carpathia thread, we were hit with an incredible realization, a moment of pure eureka - it was at this moment we realised that the Balkans were the true cradle of civlization and we owe all of our scientific advancements to them. And we wanted to pay homage to these incredible people."
- Said Johan, a lead developer at Tinto.
The leakers were also able to extract an image of the new map and after our correspondance with the studio, we were able to confirm that the new Balkans and Carpathia map will total a whopping 6 MILLION locations, being the sole focus of the game. It is likely because of this change that the coveted feedback thread has been delayed so much.

Below you can see this incredible sight for yourself:

 

[Mingmung]

The magic number 100...

I guess we'll get the feedback-thread this upcoming week then?

 

[Makkasag]

- Said Johan, a lead developer at Tinto.

This is true btw.

Don't believe me?

Remove the n from "Tinto"

Thats right. "Swedish devs" were just an illusion. The entire dev team is of pure serbian stock, being able to trace their family tree back to the days of Emperor Contantine, one if not the greatest serbian of all time.

The leakers were also able to extract an image of the new map and after our correspondance with the studio, we were able to confirm that the new Balkans and Carpathia map will total a whopping 6 MILLION locations, being the sole focus of the game.

Oh my God...IT'S BEAUTIFUL.

I CAN SEE MY HOUSE

 

[Inzano]

This is true btw.

Don't believe me?

Remove the n from "Tinto"

Thats right. "Swedish devs" were just an illusion. The entire dev team is of pure serbian stock, being able to trace their family tree back to the days of Emperor Contantine, one if not the greatest serbian of all time.


Oh my God...IT'S BEAUTIFUL.

I CAN SEE MY HOUSE

Tito was not even a Serbian.... xD

 

[Makkasag]

Tito was not even a Serbian.... xD

Liar

 

[Bomaxx]

Liar

Bro singlehandedly doomed this thread to 100 more pages of debate

 

[purplephoton]

we were able to confirm that the new Balkans and Carpathia map will total a whopping 6 MILLION locations

Every Balkan inhabitant gets their own location

 

[Makkasag]

Bro singlehandedly doomed this thread to 100 more pages of debate

No need to debate, I am right, and Mr. Inzano is fake news

 

[Inzano]

No need to debate, I am right, and Mr. Inzano is fake news

We found a Paradox Serbian agent among us, arrest him!

 

[Pls fix HRE]

Now that page 100 is passed I can safely say Paradox will do the Balkan feedback threads last.

 

[purplephoton]

Purplephoton is not Hungarian or Russian and does not speak or read either languages.

Technically incorrect. While not Hungarian or Russian myself, I did learn Russian as a second language (as well as English, some Spanish which I immediately forgot, and some French which, to be honest, I half-assed - none of which are my native language).
It did help with pulling the sources on Budjak from three of its non-English wikipedia pages and verifying them with another three.

 

[Zeprion]

Ok, so this is where we are at:

Please provide proof that the Romanian speakers came from the Eastern Carpathians in big enough numbers to form a majority after 1337 with credible sources like articles, papers and books (No Wikipedia without sources for it). AND no past! 1337 =/= 12th, 11th or 10th centuries. But the 14th or 15th century will work for me.

And this is your answer:

So we start with

This says that they have not been in Moldavia in the Dark Ages. They have been in the mountains and Moldavia is on the flat side (there is a region near the mountains, where I believe Romanians did live).

Who lived there instead? Tivertsi and Ulici for example
View attachment 1217757View attachment 1217752View attachment 1217754View attachment 1217758
Tivertsi and Ulichs are briefly mentioned in early Ruthenian manuscripts, 863 being the earliest reference, and 944 being the latest. The Primary Chronicle from the Laurentian Codex (the oldest copy) mentions that they lived by the Dniester and Danube down to the sea (evidently, the Black Sea).

The Hypatian Codex (later re-copy) replaces the Dniester with the Dnieper. Igor's expeditions in 944, the latter year being the last reference to Tivertsi in early East Slavic manuscripts.
So the lands in our question were the edges of their habitat at worst.

Then Cumans subjugated them.
View attachment 1217764
What do we have after Tivertsi? Bolokhovians. Not many sources for them, as unfortunately, they did not write anything, and no one wrote about them alot. Same Slavic language but they are called differently. We have spoken about them a lot.

Ok, so numerous people lived in Moldavia in the Dark Ages, that is known.

And, Romanians are not mentioned to live somewhere between Prut and Dniestr rivers at that time.

They are.

In the year 938, Ibn al-Nadīm published the work Kitāb al-Fihrist (The Index of Arab Books) in which he mentioned "the Turks, Bulgarians, Vlachs" (using the term Blagha' for the Vlachs) and other peoples living north of the Danube Delta.

Another document, by the Arab chronicler Mutahhar al-Maqdisi, who lived in the 10th century, mentioned among the neighbors of the Turkic peoples the Slavs, Waladj (Vlachs), Alans, Greeks, and other peoples.

In 1040, Casimir, Duke of Poland, formed an alliance with Yaroslav the Wise, Duke of Kiev, and received 1,000 foot soldiers to reclaim his lost territories in Poland. On this occasion, an army composed of Ruthenians, Prussians, Dacians, and Getae (possibly Romanians) is mentioned.

In 1068, the Vlachs/Romanians from Moldova and the Pechenegs led by Osul took part in a raiding campaign in Transylvania and Hungary, which ended with the Battle of Chiraleș in Transylvania, where they were defeated. The events are recorded in a Russian chronicle.

In 1070, the Vlachs/Romanians from Moldova, along with the Pechenegs and Ruthenians, were involved in an expedition by King Bolesław of Krakow. The campaign is commented on by the Polish chronicler Długosz.

On the border between Halych and the Brodniks, in the 11th century, a Viking by the name of Rodfos was killed in the area by Romanian Vlachs who supposedly betrayed him.

In 1164, the future Byzantine Emperor Andronikos I Komnenos, was taken prisoner by Romanian Vlachs around the same region.

Blokumen? Blokumanland / Blökumanland / Blakumanland / Romania - land south of the lower Danube.
View attachment 1217775
Bolokhovians are Slavic, Birladnici are Turcic

There is no mention of the Bolokhovians or of the Berladnici after the 13th century. By contrast, there are mentions of Romanians.

So the question is, when did Romanians move away from the mountains and into the plains? As they in fact did it someday to become a majority of the region. You do not need a lot of people to change the map of lands, not highly populated, to begin with.

Consider that we have Romanians mentioned in Moldavia in: 938, 1040, 1068, 1070, 1164. It's reasonable to assume somewhere between that period.

Here so you can find the answer. I highlighted the important parts that specifically mention the migration of the people.

Dragos:

Ce cu voia sfinții sale, îndemnându-să o samă de ficiori de domni den domniile ce au fost pre acéle vremi la Râm și cu oamenii lor den Maramurăș, viind preste munții ungurești și preste munții țărâi Moldovei, vânându heri sălbatece păn' au ieșit la apa ce-i dzice Moldoa, gonind un dzimbru, carele l-au și dobânditu la un sat ce să chiamă Buorenii, pre aceia apă. Ș-au pus acei ape numele Moldova, pre numele unii țânci ce s-au înecatu într-acea apă, ce o au chemat pre țâncă Molda și pre numele ei să dzice acmu și țărâi Moldova, păn' astădzi. Ieșindu la loc frumos și deșchis, socotindu cu toții că-i loc bun de hrană și plăcându-le tuturor, s-au întorsu înapoi iarăși în Maramurăș ș-au scos oamenii lor toți într-această țară.
...
Scrie la létopisețul cel moldovenescu, la predoslovie, de zice că deaca au ucis acei vânători acel buor, întorcându-se înapoi, văzând locuri desfătate, au luat pre câmpi într-o parte și au nemerit la locul unde acum târgul Sucévei. Acolo aminosindu-le fum de foc și fiind locul despre apă, cu pădure mănuntă, au pogorât pre mirodeniia fumului la locul unde este acum mănăstirea Ețcanei. Acolea pre acelaș loc au găsit o priseacă cu stupi și un moșneag bătrân, de prisăcăriia stupii, de seminție au fost rus și l-au chiemat Ețco. Pre carele deaca l-au intrebat vânătorii, ce omu-i și den ce țară este, el au spus că este rus den Țara Leșască. Așijderea și pentru loc l-au intrebat, ce loc este acesta și de ce stăpân ascultă ? Ețco au zis: este un loc pustiiu și fără stăpân, de-l domnescu fierile și pasările și să tinde locul în gios, păn' în Dunăre, iar în sus păn' în Nistru, de să hotăraște cu Țara Leșască, și este loc foarte bun de hrană. Înțelegând vânătorii acest cuvânt, au sârguit la Maramorăș, de ș-au tras oamenii săi într-această parte și pre alții au îndemnat, de au descălecat întăi supt munte și s-au lățit pre Moldova în gios. Iar Iațco prisecariul, deaca au înțeles de descălecarea maramorășénilor, îndată s-au dus și el în Țara Leșască, de au dus ruși mulți și i-au descălecat pre apa Sucévei în sus și pre Sirétiu despre Botoșiani. Și așa de sârgu s-au lățit rumănii în gios și rușii în sus.


What with the will of his saint, urging a number of sons of lords from the lordships that were before those times in Râm and with their men from Maramurăs, coming to the Hungarian mountains and to the mountains of Moldavia, hunting wild game until they came out to the water that Moldoa says to him, chasing a deer, which they acquired in a village, what to call it Buorenii, for that water. Those waters gave themselves the name Moldova, after the name of some ants who drowned in that water, who called it Molda ants, and because of her name they say acmu and lands of Moldova, until today. Going out to a beautiful and open place, all of them considering it a good place for food and pleasing to all, they returned back again to Maramurăs and removed all their people to this country.
...

It is written in the Moldavian letopisect, in the predoslovie, that when those hunters killed that buor, turning back, seeing the delightful places, they took the fields to one side and went to the place where now the fair of Sucévei. There they were aminosinduindule smoke of fire and being the place about water, with forest mănuntă, they pogorât pre mirodeniia smoke at the place where is now the monastery of Ețcanei. Near the same place they found a hive with beehives and an old man, from the beehives, from the tribe they were Russian and called him Ețco. When the hunters asked him, what kind of a man he was and what country he was from, he said that he was a Russian from the Land of Lesch. Then they asked him about the place, what place is this, and what lord does he obey? And they said, 'It is a desolate place without a lord, a place where iron and birds rule, and the place stretches down to the Danube and up to the Dniester, where it borders on the land of the land of the Lezsaks, and is a very good place to eat. And when the hunters understood this word, they went diligently to Maramorăș, so that they drew his men to that side, and urged others, and they dismounted first under the mountains and went to Moldavia in the mountains. As soon as Iacchus the Prisecari, when they heard of the dismounting of the Maramorans, they immediately went to the land of the Leasca, and brought many Russians and dismounted them upstream by the Sucéva and Sirétiu about the Botoșiani. And so the Rumanians and the Russians were so diligently spread out.

this says that he with his people came from the mountains to the empty fields

In blue, he is talking specifically about the region around the Molda river. As opposed to all of Moldavia. The country Moldavia being named after the river. Then they went to were is today Suceava. Found a Russian from Țara Leșască. He told them there is good hunt there, so they went with their people there.

I myself said that they went there and founded some villages.

But fouding some villages =/= came from the Eastern Carpathians in big enough numbers to form a majority after 1337.

The source doesn't say that this is the event that lead to a Romanian majority in all of Moldavia, as there previously wasn't. Which is what you are saying.

The source doesn't say that the place way empty. It was that had a lot of open space. It calls it "open space" as in not mountains but never "empty" as in devoid of population.

The source only said that he came with his people and founded some villages. And some villages =/= populating the whole country. To which:

How could you possibly populate all the blue with the red?

this says that he with his people came from the mountains to the empty fields

Bogdan:
1.
The biographer of Louis I of Hungary, John of Küküllő recorded that "Bogdan, the voivode of the Romanians of Maramureș, gathering the Romanians from this district, secretly passed into Moldavia, which was subject to the Hungarian Crown, but had been abandoned by its inhabitants because of the vicinity of the Tatars."[22]

Bogdan voievodul românilor din Maramureș, adunând la el pe românii acelui district, a trecut în taină în țara Moldovei, care era supusă coroanei Ungariei, dar din cauza vecinătății tătarilor de mult timp părăsită de locuitori. Și cu toate că a fost combătut mai adeseori de oastea regelui însuși, totuși crescând marele număr al românilor locuitori în aceea țară, s-a dezvoltat ca stat.

Bogdan, voivode of the Romanians of Maramureș, gathering the Romanians of that district to himself, secretly crossed over into the land of Moldavia, which was subject to the crown of Hungary, but because of the Tartars' neighborhood had long since been deserted by its inhabitants. And although he was more often than not opposed by the king's own army, nevertheless, as the number of Romanians living in that country increased, he developed as a state.

2.
John of Küküllő mentioned that Louis I's army often invaded Moldavia, but the "number of Vlachs inhabiting that land increased, transforming it into a country".[22]

3.
Around 1355, Bogdan of Cuhea, former Voivode of Maramureș, but now in conflict with Louis I of Hungary, crosses the mountains with other Vlachs from Maramureș and takes over Moldavia.[162]
from: Ioan Aurel Pop: Istoria României. Transilvania, Volumul I, Edit. „George Barițiu”, Cluj-Napoca, 1997, p.473

The number of Romanians living in that country increased. Yes, this is what happens when you bring your people from Maramures. Again, I never denied these events happened, in fact, I previously mentioned them myself in the history of Moldavia.

But bringing people from Maramures =/= came from the Eastern Carpathians in big enough numbers to form a majority after 1337.

I have never disagreed with you on the part that he came with his people for Maramures. In fact, I posted this myself. I have disagreed with you on the fact that you consider this (a) Moldavia previously had a Romanian minority and (b) these numbers were big enough to turn Moldavia from Romanian minority to Romanian majority.

This is why I kept insisting on numbers and make the "Maramures Romanian factory" joke.

This only prove that Bogdan came with people from Maramures. Which, yes, he did. But that doesn't automatically prove that (a) Moldavia previously had a Romanian minority and (b) these numbers were big enough to turn Moldavia from Romanian minority to Romanian majority.

You may believe that I deny those events, I don't. I simply don't see how those events automatically prove (a) & (b).

Your quote: Bogdan's companions founded new villages in Moldavia, naming them after their baptismal names or after the names of the villages they had left in Maramureș

They did not just build the village for fun. I interpret that as they have moved from Maramureș and founded a new village in Moldavia which means they have migrated with someone to populate the villages.

Absolutely, never said they build the village for fun. They build them to live there. Which is something I don't deny. What I deny is how this proves (a) & (b).

Ok, for the conclusions part:

In the end, I believe I have reiterated again how Romanians migrated to the fields from the mountains.

You have reiterated how Dragos and Bogdan's people migrated to the fields from the mountains.
As opposed to how all Romanians migrated to the fields from the mountains.

Dragos & Bogdan are not evidence that all Romanians migrated to the fields from the mountains. The sources on Dragos & Bogdan do not say that.
Dragos & Bogdan are evidence that their men went there and founded some villages, and ended up living there. But this is not evidence that (a) Moldavia previously had a Romanian minority and (b) these numbers were big enough to turn Moldavia from Romanian minority to Romanian majority.

The source says they went from Maramures to Moldavia, which they did.
The source doesn't say Romanians weren't already there. It doesn't say their Romanians that they came with turned Moldavia into a region with Romanian majority.
Or if the source mentions that they came in such big numbers to turn a previously non-Romanian majority region in a Romanian majority region, please point out where.
But I seriously doubt a Voivevode like Dragos and Bogdan had enough Romanian population in Maramures to populate an area the size of Moldavia even if empty, let alone if it had other ethnicities to become a majority.
And still remained the majority in Maramures (so not all of them) as the Voivodship of Maramures kept existing and being ruled by Dragos' descendents up until the early 15th century.

They have not lived there since the Dark Ages, instead Slavic people lived there.

We have them mentioned in 938, 1040, 1068, 1070, 1164. Long before Dragos and Bogdan.

Some day Romanians should have migrated to the Moldavian fields, and everything says that it should have been around the times of Dragos and Bogdan.

What is this everything? Dragos & Bogdan says only how their people went there. The mentions of Romanian Vlachs in 938, 1040, 1068, 1070, 1164 in Moldavia contradict it.

This "everything" is the proof I wait for in came from the Eastern Carpathians in big enough numbers to form a majority after 1337. But you did not explain how Moldavia previously had a Romanian minority and these numbers of Bogdan and Dragos were big enough to turn Moldavia from Romanian minority to Romanian majority.

I have not found any sources saying that they migrated earlier to the lands in question. This is why I have asked you for this with a specific date being before 1337. So we can add them to the map accordingly

We have the mentions of Vlachs in 938, 1040, 1068, 1070, 1164 in Moldavia. It is not a mention of migration but simply of existenece. So it's reasonable to assume they lived there since earlier times.

The only migrations we have are of Dragos and Bogdan. Which look at the Red Maramures vs Blue Moldavia map. Would you consider that enough?

Regarding your map:

You mentioned that you used Bolokhovians as a placeholder for Slavs after 1257. But what evidence to we have for Slavs in these regions you mentioned as "Bolokhovians" ? This is the map you made:

Based on this:

But the red lines seem to be drawn random. What's the reason for giving almost half of Moldavia to Slavs in 1337 based on Bolokhovians being on the northern top of of the map in 1257?

Where as I did in fact preserve the Slavs north of Moldavia in my interpretation of your sources, the Halychian Slavs in 1337 that used to be the Bolokhovians in 1257.

So what is the source based on which you made those exact borders for the Bolokhovians in 1257 and later Slavs in 1337 as a continuation?
My borders are based on the toponyms map you provided + what Britannica says about Bukovina and wikipedia says about Bukovina.

Furthermore, for the southern part, regarding the Crimean part. The actual extent of the borders aside, the Brodnici and Benlandici were long gone in 1337, even longer gone than Bolokhovians. While Hanesti is not on your cultural map.

While I merely used this regarding the Budjak region. It's far closer to 1337 than the time of the Brodnici and Benlandici.

Leading to this map:

 

[purplephoton]

Man, we were so close to not polluting the hallowed 100th page with this argument.

 

[Zeprion]

I wish you better luck with the 200th page.

 

[purplephoton]

Checks comment count
Ok guys, we're past page 100, back to ad hominems as usual!

 

[purplephoton]

You see it's a very subtle difference, some would argue it's not that hard to tell the difference but I know it must be very hard with all that Russian & Hungarian bias.

Only Hungarians and Russians currently on this topic other than me.

Based on this text, which is not that complicated. Someone from team HU concluded that "The Romanians inhabited the port cities sometime during the 14th century".

I'd like to take this time to remind you that
1) Me and ArVass (and Mingmung, but he's not being accused of anything here) were the ones who created a Hungary rework that included a lot of Romanians and Ruthenians. Someone with an actual Hungary bias (cough cough Fehervari) would discard the continuity theory and pretend that all the Romanians and Ruthenians assimilated when there is solid evidence to the contrary.
2) ArVass, despite being Hungarian, has sided against the ultra-Hungarian ideas posted in this thread.
3) I was the one who found and posted sources of Ruthenians manning the forts in Transcarpathia and also the source that suggest that Maramures was dominated Romanians after 1300.

But please, keep on telling us that someone with Russian and Hungarian bias would provide evidence in favor of Romanians and Ruthenians.

You guys wrote in Hungarian and Russian in this topic. Is it paranoia to say that someone who speaks in Hungarian is likely Hungarian?

It's paranoia to say that someone who posted one source in Russian is likely Russian. The language has about 260 million speakers, there are roughly another 100 million Slavs who won't speak Russian but will be able to read/understand enough to read the sources, and there are another few hundred million internet users with access to Google Translate. Even excluding the last group, the chances of a Russian speaker being Russian are roughly 40%, which falls well below the threshold of likely.