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Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

Greetings, and welcome to another Tinto Maps! This week we will be taking a look at Carpathia and the Balkans! It will most likely be an interesting region to take a look at, with a lot of passion involved… So I’ll just make an initial friendly reminder to keep a civil discussion, as in the latest Tinto Maps, as that’s the easiest way for us to read and gather your feedback, and improve the region in a future iteration. And now, let’s start with the maps!

Countries:
Countries.png

Carpathia and the Balkans start in a very interesting situation. The Kingdom of Hungary probably stands as the most powerful country in 1337, but that only happened after the recovery of the royal power enforced by Charles I Robert of the House of Anjou, who reined in the powerful Hungarian nobility. To the south, the power that is on the rise is the Kingdom of Serbia, ruled by Stefan Uroš IV Dušan, who has set his eyes on his neighbors to expand his power. The Byzantine Empire, meanwhile, is in a difficult position, as internal struggles ended in Andronikos III being crowned sole emperor, at the cost of dividing the realm; both Serbia and Bulgaria have in the past pressed over the bordering lands, while the Ottomans have very recently conquered Nicomedia. The control over the Southern Balkans is also very fractioned, with a branch of the Anjou ruling over Albania, the Despotate of Epirus under the nominal rule of Byzantium as a vassal, Athens, Neopatria and Salona as vassals of the Aragonese Kings of Sicily, Anjou protectorates over Achaia and Naxos, and only nominal Byzantine control over Southern Morea. It’s also noticeable the presence of the Republics of Venice and Genoa, which control several outposts over the Adriatic and Aegean Seas. A final note: in previous maps, Moldavia was shown in the map, but we’ve removed it from it, and it will most likely spawn through a chain of events in the 1340s.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The House of Anjou rules over Naples, Hungary, Albania, Achaia, and Cephalonia; they’re truly invested in their push for supremacy over the region. Apart from that, each country is ruled by different dynasties, except for Athens and Neopatria, ruled by the House of Aragón-Barcelona.

Locations:
Locations 1.png

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Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png
This week we’re posting the general map of the region, along with some more detailed maps, that can be seen if you click on the spoiler button. A starting comment is that the location density of Hungary is noticeably not very high; the reason is that it was one of the first European maps that we made, and we based it upon the historical counties. Therefore, I’m already saying in advance that this will be an area that we want to give more density when we do the review of the region; any help regarding that is welcome. Apart from that, you may notice on the more detailed maps that Crete appears in one, while not being present in the previous one; because of the zooming, the island will appear next week along with Cyprus, but I wanted to make an early sneak peek of the locations, given that is possible with this closer zoom level. Apart from that, I’m also saying in advance that we will make an important review of the Aegean Islands, so do not take them as a reference for anything, please.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Provinces! Nothing outstanding to be commented on here; as usual, we’re open to any feedback regarding them.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

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Terrain! The climate of the region is mostly divided between Continental and Mediterranean, with some warmer and some colder regions. Regarding the topography, the Carpathian mountains are famously important and strategic, while the Balkans are a quite hilly and mountainous region, which is also greatly covered by woods and forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Here comes the fun part of the DD: The cultural division of the Balkans! A few comments:
  1. Hungary is full of different minorities. Transylvania, especially, is an interesting place: there we have a mix of ‘Hungarians’, ‘Transylvanians’ (which are the Romanian-speaking inhabitants of the region), ‘Transylvanian Germans’, and ‘Szekely’ people.
  2. We have divided the Southern Slavic-speaking region into their dialectal families of Slovene, Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian.
  3. The Southern Balkans are mostly divided among Bulgarian, Albanian, and Greek cultures.
  4. We’re also portraying plenty of other cultures, such as Dalmatians, Aromanians, Sclavenes, Arvanites, Cumans, Jasz, or Ashkenazi and Romanyoti Jews.

Religions:
Religion.png

This one is also interesting. Apart from the divide between Western Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, we have the Krstjani in Bosnia, Bogomils (the pink stripes both in Bosnia and Macedonia), and Paulicians in Thrace. The Jewish populations do not pass the threshold percentage to appear on the map, but there are plenty of communities across the region.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

The materials of the region. Something very noticeable is the richness of minerals, with plenty of Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead, Gold, and Silver. Specifically, Slovakia is very rich, and you definitely want more settlers to migrate to the region, and exploit its resources. The region is also very rich in agricultural resources, as you can see.

Markets:
Markets.png

The region is mostly divided among four markets: Venice, Pest, Ragusa and Constantinople.

Country and Location population:
Population 1.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Population 4.png
Country and location population (which I’ve also sub-divided, and is under the Spoiler button).

And that’s all of today! I hope that you find the region interesting; we certainly think that it is. Next week we will go further south, and we will take a look at the Syrian Levant and Egypt. Cheers!
 
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We didn't have the proper tools to portray them correctly, I think. Maybe we could have them, but there are a couple of things that we'd need to have first, and I'm not entirely sure if we'll get them.
can't we just have a Banker - like system? You said in a Tinto Talk that private banks (as in banker families) act like countries without any territory. Can't you implement something similar to it?

Also, by the by, will mercenaries and privateers act in a similar - ish way?
 
There was already a strong Bosnian identity in the Late Middle Ages, with a Banate that became a Kingdom, a Church, and a dialect of their own.
That is true, but the identity also primarily spread through the expansion of the Bosnian Banate/Kingdom. The parts of modern Bosnia that are under Serbian/Croat/Hungarian rule should have little to no Bosnian identity yet.

Hum, which was conquered mere years before the start, also had a regional identity of its own that wasn't really subsumed into Bosnian until well into Ottoman rule - and Hercegovina still has a distinct regional identity and dialects today. If anything, I would argue that Hum/Zachlumia, Travunia, Dioclea/Montenegro and the southern parts of Dalmatia (the Narentine lands) should form their own culture- "Primorci" or sth, as Hercegovinian and Montenegrin eventually emerged from it. The culture is largely a subset of Serbian, but it had a distinct identity and dielect, was exposed fsr more to Italy and the West, and Serbian and Bosnian Kings always included "King of the Littoral" as a separate title


Similar arguments can be made to represent Macedonian Slavs and or Torlaks/Shopes, as distinct from both Serbs and Bulgarians, given how fluid the distinction there can be
Dalmatian_principalities,_9th_century.png


EDIT: Speaking of, the Bosnian Church and Bogomils HEAVILY persecuted in both Hungary and in Nemanjić Serbia, they should be non-existent in Hungary and only have a small presence in Serbia (where they originally moved to Bosnia from, as a consequence of Stefan Nemanja's inquisition) Similarly, Hum, recently conquered from Serbia, should be overwhelmingly Orthodox still. Also, the Bosnian church was already in decline starting in the early 14th century- there should be a lot of Catholic pops in all of Bosnia, and Orthodox ones close to the Drina
 
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Will red Ottoman Empire be a thing that starts with this game or will they keep their green regardless? Also, will flags be changed to fit country colors like how the Venetian flag was changed to be blue?
1. It will most likely stay as green.
2. We're doing the flags for this game as historically as possible; our flag artist is great, by the way!
 
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I can't seem to add links since the website thinks its spam just type kutmichevitsa wikipedia for the source of the map I used
Also when talking about bulgarian names for locations two obvious ones are Odrin as a name for Edirne and Tsarigrad as a name for Constantinople. (Not Tzargrad, which is used in other slavic languages. There has to be an i in Tsarigrad if you decide to do the bulgarian version).
 
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I see no issue with Bosniak/Bosnian culture existing, nor do I see an issue in having Serbian (orthodox), Croatian (catholic) and Bosnian (krstjan) practically split down religious lines, I like the granularity, and it is very hard differentiating between the 3 at any point in history, especially on the border areas. It definitely needs some more tweaking, having Bosnians East of the Drina River is a weird choice. But it's definitely not split down dialectal families, as you say.

If you were to split it like that, Croatian would have to be split into a Kajkavian north and a Chakavian coast (I believe that Shtokavian hadn't entered, or at least wasn't as dominant as it is today in Croatian, maybe in Slavonia, but I do not know), Bosnian would be split into a Kajkavian northwest, a Chakavian southwest and a Shtokavian North and East, and Serbian would transform mostly into Shtokavian, with Torlakian needing to exist on both sides of the modern Serbian-Bulgarian-Macedonian border (Niš-Sofia-Skopje area).

What I'm not fully supportive of is the lack of a Slavic-Macedonian culture, where the entirety of the southeastern Slavic group is shown as purely Bulgarian. Or the fact that we have a Transylvanian culture, but no Moldovan culture, only Wallachian. Transylvanian would only make sense if Moldovan was a culture as well.

Edit: I fully understand that having the ex-Yugoslav cultures split down dialectical lines wouldn't make sense in a historical game such as this, I don't mind the way it was split here as it is mostly good.
 
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A few things I noticed regarding locations in modern Serbia borders, from north to south:

1. Change Zenta to Subotica (don't know the Hungarian name), Subotica is more important and one of the bigger cities in Vojvodina
2. Can't read the location name above Kovin, west of Timisoara, what is it?
3. Kovin is even today a small town, not bigger than 10k inhabitants, better to change it to Pančevo (wiki link - Pančevo was first mentioned in 1153 and was described as an important mercantile place)
4. Debrc is a small village south of the Sava, only known because of a medieval church and nothing else. The location should either be changed to Novi Sad, or Srem (Syrmia, Szerem), as Srem is geographically right in between Sava and Danube
5. Instead of Jagodina (not sure if it is, but looks like it), place Kragujevac, it was a settlement already settled by the end of 12th century
6. Ravno - first time hearing of this, Zaječar much better suited, 3 Roman emperors were born there
7. Trgovište - not to be confused with Romanian Targoviste, Ras or Raška would be much much better
8. Peč should be Peć
9. Glubočica can be Leskovac instead, Leskovac is just center of the area. If not, then Dubočica is most commonly used

Provinces:

1. Donji-Kraji sounds very unnatural, maybe just Krajina?
2. Usora and Soli - Slavonija?
4. As per the current locations - Syrmia - existing + Debrc, Mačva - Krupanj, Valjevo, Gradac, Belgrad, Šumadija - Smederevo, Rudnik, Jagodina, Žiča, Braničevo - existing + Stalać, Niš - existing + Kruševac, Toplica can be scrapped
5. Podrinje can be renamed to Hercegovina
6. Serbian / Slavic version of Illyria is Ilirija
2. It's Nagybecskerek (Zrenjanin).

Thanks for the feedback!
 
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Just curious if there are/will be Slovak variation names for Hungarian and other locations?

Also wouldnt it make sense to "extend" the range of Mountains type locations just a bit more west towards Trenčín, and similarly make some mountains into hills in eastern Slovakia ?
 

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Interesting choice to abandon Europe for Egypt and Levant, certainly did not expect this. Hope to see lots of religious diversity with Ezidis, Druzes, Maronites, Assyrians, Aramaics, Copts and Samaritans. Will Cyprus and Crete also be a part of that developer diary?
 
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I have some suggestions for improving the density and accuracy of the map, particularly in Hungary:

  • Add Tokaj Location: Please create a new Tokaj location out of south Zemplén and assign wine as its raw resource. Although the town is small, Tokaj wine's economic impact is significant.
  • Add Villány Location: Establish Villány as an independent location out of south Pécs, again with wine as a resource.
  • Wine Resources: Change Eger, Buda, and Veszprém's raw materials to wine to better reflect historical production. I am a bit too much into wine.
  • Add Žilina Location: Divide Trencin into East and West and name the eastern half Žilina.
  • Add Trnava/Nagyszombat Location: Create Trnava (Nagyszombat) out of the eastern part of Pressburg and some slices of surrounding locations.
  • Borsod Renaming: Rename Borsod to Diósgyőr or Miskolc if we are naming locations after towns.
  • Hlohovec Adjustment: Remove horses as a raw resource from Hlohovec. Hungary should have horses on the plains.
  • Rename Leibitz to Kežmarok: Kežmarok was a more important city historically.
  • Rename Beregovo to Berehovo/Beregszász: Split it into Southern Berehovo and Northern Mukacsevo/Munkács.
  • Change Yasine to Maramureș (Máramarossziget): This area was historically significant as a center for logging and salt mining.
  • Split Northwestern Nagyakálló: Create Szabolcs and assign fruit as a raw resource.
  • Split Bihar: Create an eastern Nagyvárad (one of the most important cities in Hungary) and Berettyóújfalu.
  • Rename Várda to Kisvárda.
  • Split Csanád: Create a southern Szeged with salt as a raw resource (it was a center of salt trade) and a northern Hódvásárhely (today's Hódmezővásárhely) with livestock.
  • Split Eastern Vasvár: Create Szombathely (one of the oldest towns in Hungary, also known as Savaria from the Romans).
  • Split the very eastern part of Baranya: Create Mohács with livestock.
  • Create a new location called Banská Štiavnica/Selmecbánya: Located at the border of Óbars, Hont, and Banská Bystrica. This was one of the first royal free towns and a significant source of silver and gold.
  • Split Northern Prešov: Create Bardejov/Bártfa, an important commercial city on the trade route from Hungary to Poland.
  • Split Western Levoča: Create Poprad/Poprád with copper and a German population.
  • Split Northern Sopron: Create Kismarton/Eisenstadt.
  • Split Jakeb-Szállás: Create a southern Kecskemét and a northern Cegléd.
  • Rename Bodrog to Baja.
  • Split Zalavár: Create a northern Egerszeg (Zalaegerszeg today) and southern Kanizsa.
  • Split from Segesd and Somogyvár: Create Kaposvár.
  • Split Eastern Eger: Create Gyöngyös.


    These changes would enhance the historical accuracy and economic representation of Hungary.
 
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Just curious if there are/will be Slovak variation names for Hungarian and other locations?

Also wouldnt it make sense to "extend" the range of Mountains type locations just a bit more west towards Trenčín, and similarly make some mountains into hills in eastern Slovakia ?
Not currently, but potentially we could add them, yes.
 
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1. It will most likely stay as green.
2. We're doing the flags for this game as historically as possible; our flag artist is great, by the way!
Will flags be dynamic? For example Hungary's changing based on dynasty or by some other mechanism (the 1337 Anjou version should feature their Anjou lilies next to the Árpádian stripes, while later versions should be a different one featuring the double cross with the stripes, etc.)
 
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We received some early feedback, and we made the Republic of Ragusa a subject of Venice.
I'm not an expert but I think giving Ragusa the Peljesac peninsula at the start of the game would be more historically accurate. However, the islands (Korcula, Vis) should be a part of Venice, maybe adding them to Brac instead.

I also posted a list of dynamic culture names for the area in the Italy Tinto Maps, which is really more relevant here.
 
To be honest, we aren't completely happy with the concept either, as we have four different cultures for the 'Germans of the East': Baltic German, Silesian German, Carpathian German, and Transylvanian German. But we think that it's the 'less bad' solution to portray the cultural melting pot that these places were for the different German settlers.

Maybe you could use endonyms in their languages? Slavic Silesians could be Slezané, Ślązacy, or Ślōnzŏki (I think some people made the point they could be represented as Polish, as they wouldn't have diverged significantly in the middle ages), German Silesians could be Schläsisch or Schlesisch, Transylvanian Germans could be Soxen etc.
 
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A really cool Map. I like this one and I have some games already in mind.

One thing though that perhaps others more familar with the area can correct me on. But shouldn't Ruthenians and Rusyn be united not split up?
 
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I have some suggestions for improving the density and accuracy of the map, particularly in Hungary:

  1. Add Tokaj Location: Please create a new Tokaj location out of south Zemplén and assign wine as its raw resource. Although the town is small, Tokaj wine's economic impact is significant.
  2. Add Villány Location: Establish Villány as an independent location out of south Pécs.
  3. Wine Resources: Change Eger, Buda, and Veszprém's raw materials to wine to reflect historical production better.
  4. Add Žilina Location: Divide Trencin East/West and name the eastern half Žilina.
  5. Add Trnava/Nagyszombat Location: Create Trnava (Nagyszombat) out of the eastern part of Pressburg and some slices of surrounding locations.
  6. Borsod Renaming: Rename Borsod to Diósgyőr or Miskolc if we are naming locations after towns.
  7. Hlohovec Adjustment: Remove horses as a raw resource from Hlohovec. Hungary should have horses on the plains.
Bonus point if we can have an event for the Tokaj grapes propagating to another area if a foreign power with vineyards is combating there (as reference to von Schwendi bringing them to Alsace)
 
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1. It will most likely stay as green.
2. We're doing the flags for this game as historically as possible; our flag artist is great, by the way!
Will the venetian flag have the tails at the end?
 
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