Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

[anacronox]

Why do Cernauti, Hotin, Chilia and Cetatea Alba locations have so low pops? Both Cernauti (Tetina) and Hotin fortresses were already quite established in that time period, while in Chilia and Cetatea Alba there were important ports and centers of trade.
Furthermore, I would split the Soroca location into Soroca and Balti/Baltile (admittedly, Balti was more of a village in that time period).

 

[StelarCF]

Why was (romanian speaking) Transylvanian singled out to be separated as a culture from Wallachian?

 

[Kane_hun]

Also what is the naming convention? Because location names are all over the place. I think in the british isles Tinto Talks it was said that locations will have the name of the prmiary culture currently ruling them. Does that also apply here?

Due to dynamic naming and it being WIP, I think we should just post the location names in as many languages as we know, and let the game dynamically show it

 

[Pavía]

I'm sorry that this isn't the place, but I completely missed this in the Tinto Maps about the Poland region and now I notice it, and I don't know if you're gathering feedback from there anymore.

As a small request, could you split the location of Opava in two, having in the north Racibórz/Ratibor and Opava in the south? As shown in this picture. For those juicy German Empire's Silesia border. Please, please, please!

View attachment 1158617

Also, this shape is a little bit ugly imo but otherwise great map!

View attachment 1158618

Yes; please post this there.

 

[Tibi088]

With raw materials produced i also have some problems:
On the great plain on hungary at this period the predominant produce should be horses - followed by livestock.
I also see a lot of whool. Its absolutely correct that there was a lot of sheep in Hungary but they were of a kind whose wool was useless for industry. Im not sure what to categorize them.

The relevant parts from Pál Engel, The Realm of Saint Stephen - A History of Medieval Hungary, 895-1526

As for the already mentioned wine the areas described here I think should absolutely have wine as products:

oduction:

 

[gcpt]

View attachment 1158621
Can we get a zoomed political mapmode of this part? What is that tiny green country?

That IIRC the're the Maniots, a sub-group of greek peoples that inhabited the peninsula of Mani.

Maniots - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Feather Prince]

So, is this the second to last tinto maps about Europe? are we only missing Scandinavia?

 

[Pavía]

Just would like to add I think "Transylvanian German" could use a better name.

To be honest, we aren't completely happy with the concept either, as we have four different cultures for the 'Germans of the East': Baltic German, Silesian German, Carpathian German, and Transylvanian German. But we think that it's the 'less bad' solution to portray the cultural melting pot that these places were for the different German settlers.

 

[Kimudena]

History of Bălți - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Bălți - 585 years" stamp from 2006
Nowadays there are good practices of agriculture/water management and the terrain is plains, but before there was mainly swamps. The word Bălți means puddles.

Initially in XV-century the plan was to build a marketplace in Leova , but because of river Prut floods in this location, it was moved north to Huși.

Leova - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cimișlia is where the Tatars settled, and by becoming the majority, they gave this name to the place. Romanians and Tatars lived here together, with the first being primarily peasants and shepherds, and the Tatars mainly horse breeders.

Cimișlia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

târgul Lăpușnei rename it to "Lăpușna"

"Orașul de" is like saying "City of", just call it Floci ( Flost in english )

 

[Pavía]

Will Duchy of Athens be a vassal to Kingdom of Aragon or Sicily ?

Sicily.

 

[Kondio_patrona]

Bulgaria should have much more impassable terrain along the stara planina.

 

[Mark9973]

Maybe the burgenland croats.

The Burgenland Croats did not migrate into Western Hungary until a few years after the battle of Mohacs, starting around 1530. The migration was facilitated to restore depopulated areas close to Austria to essentially provide a buffer and have Croatian generals aid with military service by having their own people transferred from Moslavina.

Source: I'm Burgenland Croatian, but "People on the Border - Destiny and Mission" by Johann Dobrovich provides a good account of the history.

 

[Pavía]

@Pavía , what about Despotate of Dobruja?

We have planned to add it through an event.

 

[Tokci]

Just would like to add I think "Transylvanian German" could use a better name.

Transylvanian Saxon is the more commonly used term.

 

[Danskjävel]

Were Bosnians really separate from Serbians or Croats at that point in time? Wasn't a Bosnian cultural identity only shaped later, during the ottoman times?

Wiki quotes the Croatian institution Miroslav Krleža Institute of Lexicography as defining Bosnians (or rather Bosniaks) as

"the name for the subjects of the Bosnian rulers in the pre-Ottoman era, subjects of the Sultans during the Ottoman era, and the current name for the most numerous of the three constituent peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Bosniak, as well as the older term Bošnjanin (in Lat. Bosnensis), is originally a name defining the inhabitants of the medieval Bosnian state"​

Bošnjaci | Hrvatska enciklopedija

Enciklopedijski članak: Bošnjaci, on-line izdanje Hrvatske enciklopedije Leksikografskog zavoda Miroslav Krleža.

web.archive.org

Bosniaks - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bosnians are people living in Bosnia-Herzegovina. But in this case synonymous with Bosniaks it seems.

 

[ArVass]

About provinces, the most jarring is Budapest. Budapest wasn't unified until 1873, the province should be named after the county it mostly covers, Pest. Bácska/Bačka is mistyped here, should be written the way I did. The Province setup is otherwise alright, I guess, though some are extremely large compared to their Western equals, especially in Wallachia and Southern Hungary, so in places like that basing the provinces on real-life counties (eg. splitting Somogy to Baranya, Somogy, Zala, Veszprém) and splitting some of the larger locations like Pécs (one that essentially covers the entirety of Baranya county), so something like for example Pécs and Mohács, would also allow for the inclusion for "easter egg" places of historical importance, like Mohács, the site of not one, but two decisive battles of massive regional relevance, so it would be a nice touch to be able to "recreate" them.

 

[Zerodv]

To be honest, we aren't completely happy with the concept either, as we have four different cultures for the 'Germans of the East': Baltic German, Silesian German, Carpathian German, and Transylvanian German. But we think that it's the 'less bad' solution to portray the cultural melting pot that these places were for the different German settlers.

Given the recency of these cultures, couldn't some of these just be extension of more western German cultures?

 

[Pavía]

Also what is the naming convention? Because location names are all over the place. I think in the british isles Tinto Talks it was said that locations will have the name of the prmiary culture currently ruling them. Does that also apply here?

The plan is to have different game rules for dynamic naming and different layers of dynamic names. So, let's say, the locations in the Kingdom of Hungary could potentially have 3 or 4 different names for them, depending on the language.

 

[buffon1313]

Reposting my Bulgaria/Moldavia suggestions here

Vidin's political status in 1337

Vidin had a strong history of autonomy as the seat of several despots, including the eponymous founder of the Shishman dynasty. Having received Vidin after the death of the rebellious boyar Jacob Svetoslav, the family rose to prominence under Michael I Shishman – who was elected Tsar of Bulgaria following the death of George II Terter in 1323. Even so, Vidin’s separate political institutions were preserved, and the office of despot was transferred from Michael I to his brother Belaur. In 1331, Belaur’s weak nephew Ivan Stephen was dethroned by the despot of Lovech – Ivan Alexander, beginning the reign of Bulgaria’s last imperial dynasty. In response, Belaur broke ties with Tarnovo – ultimately seeing his possessions conquered by Ivan Alexander in 1336. Nevertheless, the latter’s authority over the region remained weak and his ally Michael II – son of Michael I Shishman became the despot of Vidin. Although not as ambitious as his predecessor, Michael II Shishman could still theoretically press his claim to the Bulgarian throne as a member of the fallen Shishman dynasty.

This information is available in the Bulgarian-language paper ПОЛИТИЧЕСКА ИСТОРИЯ НА ВИДИН ( XII в. – КРАЯТ НА XIV в. ) (page 28) on academia.edu, and in the English-language book The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century to the Ottoman Conquest (page 273).

View attachment 1158627

When exactly Michael II died remains unknown, but by 1356 Ivan Alexander’s eldest son Ivan Sratsimir had been coronated in Vidin – ruling in parallel to his father in Tarnovo. This happened following Ivan Alexander’s divorce from Theodora of Wallachia in 1350, which saw the birth of a new heir to his second wife (also named Theodora) and the subsequent disinheritance of his eldest son. Following the death of his father in 1371, Ivan Sratsimir cut all ties with Tarnovo – leaving Bulgaria divided on the eve of Ottoman invasion. Although this was something of a black swan event, it’s safe to say that it was helped along by Vidin’s deeply rooted preexisting autonomy.

How would this play out in-game?

Vidin would be a vassal of Bulgaria in 1337 ruled by Michael II Shishman. Around 1350, Bulgaria would be hit by an event concerning Ivan Alexander’s divorce from Theodora of Wallachia. This would give Bulgaria a new heir (Ivan Shishman), replace the ruler of Vidin with Ivan Sratsimir, and change the rank/title of Vidin's ruler from Despot to Tsar. Upon the death of Ivan Alexander, Vidin would become totally independent.

Okay, so Vidin was an autonomous entity in 1337. Why is this worth depicting?

I don’t know how Paradox intends to depict the rise of the Ottomans in-game, but I hope that their plan isn’t just to give them massive buffs. The Ottomans rose not because they were an unstoppable juggernaut, but because many of their enemies were deep in the throws of crisis. When Bulgarian and Ottoman troops first met on the field, Bulgaria had already been utterly hollowed out by more than a century of dynastic struggles, feudal fragmentation, heresy, and demographic decline as a consequence of warfare. It should be very difficult for a player to recover from this situation, and this should be what makes the Ottomans such a threat. It would be a far more organic/interesting approach to take, and you cannot accurately depict the fall of the Balkan states without depicting the feudal fragmentation which preceded it.

Vidin’s western border, Pirot, and the Timok valley

I’m a little perplexed why the entire Timok valley is depicted as being part of Serbia in 1337, not even Serbian maps tend to do that. More importantly, Bulgaria was invaded by Hungary in 1365 – the latter incorporating Vidin as a banate (province) for 4 years. This was quite a significant event in 14th century Bulgarian history, and it would have been impossible if the Tsardom of Vidin hadn't shared a border with Hungary in the Timok valley. As for Pirot, I can find no sources indicating that it had passed from Bulgarian to Serbian hands by the 1330s. Serbian historians Vladimir Aleksić and Igor Stamenović note that the medieval Church of St. Nicholas in Staničenje (a village in the vicinity of Pirot) contains a founders' inscription from 1332 which mentions Despot Belaur and Tsar Ivan Alexander as co-rulers of the region.

My source for this information is the paper CHURCH OF SAINT NICOLAS IN STANIČENJE AND SERBIAN-BULGARIAN DEMARCATION IN PONIŠAVLJE REGION IN 13TH AND 14TH CENTURY, BELGRADE HISTORICAL REVIEW Vol. VI (2015) (page 117) on academia.edu.

View attachment 1158628

The Despotate of Dobruja (Karvuna) in 1337

Having seen Project Caesar's in-game political map of the Balkans, one thing which sticks out to me is the lack of feudal fragmentation in Bulgaria - particularly in Dobruja. There is a misunderstanding about when the Despotate of Dobruja (Karvuna) came into being and when it ceased to exist. Information on the English-speaking internet is scarce so it's easy to parse a few wikipedia articles and take what they say at face value. Wikipedia says that Karvuna gained its independence in 1356 and fell in 1411, with its final ruler Ivanko dying in 1388. However, this information is erroneous and lacks citations. Thankfully, Bulgarian historian Georgi Atanasov's 496-page book ДОБРУДЖАНСКОТО ДЕСПОТСТВО - КЪМ ПОЛИТИЧЕСКАТА, ЦЪРКОВНАТА, СТОПАНСКАТА И КУЛТУРНАТА ИСТОРИЯ НА ДОБРУДЖА ПРЕЗ ХІV ВЕК (which is available on his academia.edu page) provides an exceptionally thorough examination of the Despotate's political, ecclesial, economic, and cultural history through the lens of archeological and historical records.

When did Karvuna really become an independent polity?

In short, the Despotate was a domain of the Terteroba clan, which lost the imperial throne of Bulgaria to Michael I Shishman in 1323 but retained their authority in Karvuna, later expanding it to Silistra and the Danube delta. Initially, Balik accepted the Byzantine title of Archon and embraced the Patriarchate of Constantinople to assert his independence from Tarnovo. Indeed, the first record of an autonomous ruler in Dobruja is from 1346, when Balik intervened in the Byzantine civil war (1341-1347) on behalf of Anna of Savoy. However, the first mention of Varna under the ecclesial jurisdiction of the Constantinople rather than Tarnovo comes from a 1323 codex, indicating that Balik likely created his domain that same year – which coincides with the dethronement of the Terteroba clan in Bulgaria. Despite this, the exiled Terterids never surrendered their political identity – Venetian, Lithuanian, and German sources all used the name Bulgaria as a synonym for the Despotate. (Source: ДОБРУДЖАНСКОТО ДЕСПОТСТВО - КЪМ ПОЛИТИЧЕСКАТА, ЦЪРКОВНАТА, СТОПАНСКАТА И КУЛТУРНАТА ИСТОРИЯ НА ДОБРУДЖА ПРЕЗ ХІV ВЕК, page 67, page 197)

Demographic decline and the demise of the Despotate

Although I don’t have population figures, Atanasov provides an excellent overview of the demographic process underway in Dobruja during the late Middle Ages. Essentially, Dobruja contained 3 population “islands” – one along the Black Sea from Varna to Kaliakra, one along the Danube around Drastar (Silistra), and one in the Danube delta. The rest of the country consisted of empty hinterland, a fact stemming not only from the arid character of Dobruja’s interior but also from the waves of marauding nomads who attacked the region starting in 1036 AD. Pechenegs, Cumans, Mongols, and Tatars all ravaged Dobruja, which was their entry point into the Balkan Peninsula. As a consequence, hundreds of villages disappeared from the archeological record in Northeastern Bulgaria, coin circulation became restricted to fortifications along the Black Sea/Danube, and the accounts of travelers (among them 12th century Byzantine historian John Kinnamos and 15th century Venetian author Giovanni Maria Angiolello) began to describe Dobruja as a desert, which remained common until the 16th century. During the 10th century, the region contained roughly 30 stone fortifications and 280 unfortified villages, while a century later all unfortified villages were destroyed as well as all inland stone fortifications. During the reign of Dobrotitsa, Varna and its satellite fortifications accounted for perhaps half of the population of his realm. (Source: ДОБРУДЖАНСКОТО ДЕСПОТСТВО - КЪМ ПОЛИТИЧЕСКАТА, ЦЪРКОВНАТА, СТОПАНСКАТА И КУЛТУРНАТА ИСТОРИЯ НА ДОБРУДЖА ПРЕЗ ХІV ВЕК, page 13 - 19)

View attachment 1158626

Despite being crippled by this demographic catastrophe, the Despotate stubbornly clung to independence by means of clever diplomacy. Initially a Byzantine ally, Karvuna's most capable ruler Dobrotitsa warmed relations with Tarnovo to expand his holdings west into Silistra and south along the Black Sea coast in exchange for his participation in Tsar Ivan Alexander's campaign to retake Vidin from Hungary in 1369. When relations between the Despotate and its northern neighbour soured under Ivanko, a Wallachian invasion saw him temporarily ejected from his holdings in 1389 - only to be reinstalled by his Ottoman allies in 1391. Ultimately, Karvuna would outlast even Tarnovo itself, lingering on until a Tatar invasion - not an Ottoman one, destroyed the Despotate in 1399. (Source: ДОБРУДЖАНСКОТО ДЕСПОТСТВО - КЪМ ПОЛИТИЧЕСКАТА, ЦЪРКОВНАТА, СТОПАНСКАТА И КУЛТУРНАТА ИСТОРИЯ НА ДОБРУДЖА ПРЕЗ ХІV ВЕК, page 183 - 207)

Yashko - a Jasz remnant state in eastern Moldavia

An interesting thing which I and some others have noticed is the premature existence of Moldavia in-game despite its traditional date of foundation not being until 1346. While I take no issue with this, I do think that it provides an opportunity to explore a little-known polity which preceded the creation of Moldavia.

Enter the Jasz

The Jasz were a group of Alanian peoples who fled west in the wake of the Mongol invasion, most famously settling in Hungary. We’ve seen that Jasz culture exists in central Hungary in-game, but an interesting fact to note is that the Jasz people also had a polity in eastern Moldavia which is attested at least until 1330. In fact, the etymology of Moldavia’s traditional capital city (Iași) likely derives from their name.

Prior to the emergence of the Moldavian state in the mid-14th century, Moldavia was the scene of competition between the Golden Horde, Hungary, Galicia, and Bulgaria, none of whom really governed the region directly but instead patronized local princes/chieftains. Bulgarians identified Moldavia (and especially the area around Iași) as Yashko (land of the Jasz people), and Alanians were frequently employed as soldiers in Bulgarian campaigns. Dusan’s code (written in 1349) mentions that at the battle of Velbazhd in 1330, the "Gospodstvo (lordship of) Yashko” participated on the side of Bulgarian Tsar Michael I Shishman, which implies a continued Bulgarian suzerainty over the region. Additionally, 13th-14th century jewelry found in hoards near the villages of Voinești, Oțeleni, and Cotnari attest to the influence of South Slavic material culture in what would become Moldavia. Furthermore, there were 3 villages in the vicinity of Iași whose names contained the word Șchei (an old Romanian exonym for Bulgarians), suggesting that a trickle of Bulgarian colonists may have accompanied this influence.

What happened to the Jasz polity in Moldavia?

One of the most important landowners in 15th century Moldavia was a boyar with the unusual name of Stoyan Prochelnik. Prochelnik was a title in medieval Bulgaria and Serbia (but not Moldavia) denoting a fortress-governor, leading Bulgarian academics such as Tervel Popov and Plamen Pavlov to conclude that Stoyan was a descendant of the old Jasz lords who kept their former title as a surname. This would explain why his family held large estates around Iași, and it would paint a plausible picture of how the Moldavian state came to supplant the Jasz one. Essentially, as Vlachs settled the plains around Iași while Bulgarian influence receded, the old Jasz polity was absorbed by the newcomers on favorable terms and its aristocrats were integrated into the Moldavian nobility.

How would this look in game?

For one, I propose the creation of an Orthodox Jasz-culture principality (perhaps allied to or a vassal of Bulgaria) in eastern Moldavia which would coexist with an independent Moldavia in the west. It should have a low population given that the area was recently subject to Tatar raids, and Moldavia should receive an event to annex it either through diplomacy or conquest. In general, this would add some interesting flavour to Eastern Europe, and I think it would be cool to play as a remnant of the Alans. Lastly, given the polity’s close relationship with Bulgaria, I suggest that it be able to reform Bulgaria if it manages to conquer the region. Think of it like how Theodoro is a Gothic country with a Greek bureaucratic/religious language, which can reform Byzantium in EU4.

My source for most of this information is the paper "Политическото присъствие на възобновеното Българско царство в днешна Молдова (XII – XIV в.)" which is available at the Central and Eastern European Online Library.

Vidin was not authonomous in 1337. It was authonomous at some point in the late 13th, early 14th century. Then it was declared authonomous by Sratsimir in 1355 after Shishman had been declared heir to the throne. In 1337 there were feudal holdings and appanages, but gamewise, Vidin is totally Bulgarian.

 

[Tissaia]

Hey, it seems Empire of the Romans starts with a solid road across it.