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Tinto Talks #10 - 1st of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the final of four on the economy system for our secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”.

Today we will talk about all the things related to trade, including markets, merchants and trades. This talk is heavy on tooltip screenshots, and a lot of concepts to digest, so I recommend checking it through multiple times.

Markets
Let's start with the markets themselves. These are dynamic and will change through the playthrough, as countries can create new markets and disband their old if they so desire.

Each market has a center in a location, and the owner of that location is in control over that market.

Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.

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The Riga market has control over much of the Baltic region in the start..

A market has merchants, who have a power depending on buildings and maritime presence in the market, and a merchant capacity which depends on the infrastructure for trade that country has in that market. The Merchant Power impacts in which order exports from a market are executed, as there is not an endless supply of goods in a market. The Merchant Capacity impacts how much goods the merchants can ship.

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This is the source of the Hanseatic League’s merchant capacity in Riga.



As you can see in the market screenshot, every good has a local price, and a supply vs demand value as well, let's take a look at the beer price in the next tooltip.

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Cheap beer, must be paradise…

Prices change every month towards the Target Price, which depends on the supply and demand of the goods in the market, and the current price stability. Price stability can change through the ages as well.

Supply & Demand
The supply of each good in a market depends on several factors.
  • The output from RGO’s
  • The output from buildings
  • Base Production
  • Burgher Trades

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s, even if an RGO with that raw material can produce much more, and there are buildings that can be built to provide these as well.

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%

So what about demand? This is primarily from the maintenance, input, and construction of buildings, recruiting and maintaining armies and navies, and the demands of the population, but there are more sources as well.

Of course, trades themselves impact supply and demand as well.

Trade
You can use your merchant capacity in a market to either export a good from that market, or import a good from another market. Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337.

A trade is a variable amount of goods shipped from one market to another market, purchasing it for the local price in the exporting market. The longer the distance between the markets, the more capacity each good will require to ship, and higher the maintenance costs will be.

Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time. A trade always has to trace a path on the map.

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Our merchant power makes us get the amount of goods we want in Riga.

There are also the Sound Tolls, if you pass through Öresund or the Bosphorus to consider.

Diplomacy and Trade
There are many diplomatic factors that impact the trade and market mechanics of Project Caesar.

First of all, you can “Deny Market Access” to a nation owning a market, which will reduce the attraction of their markets on your locations, but also make anyone with merchants in those markets upset with you.

You can also request and/or offer market access preference making it likelier for a country’s locations to belong in a certain market.

If you dislike paying Sound Tolls, you can always try to ask for exemption for it through diplomacy with the country controlling the strait.

Some countries have isolated themselves completely, so you need to negotiate a specific exception to allow you to export or import from their markets.

There is also the possibility to embargo a country, which would block the merchants from that country to trade in your markets, and also to not be allowed to move through your country. Of course, this a legit casus belli, so use with care.

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.

We mentioned in an earlier Tinto Talks that Markets will have stockpiles, so that surplus can be stored for a rainy day. There are buildings that will increase the amount that can be stored.

There is also food in the markets, with prices adapting to the supply and demand of food as well.

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Västra Götaland är Sveriges Kornbod!

There are also automation options where you can assign trading completely to the AI. You can also lock some trades so that the AI will not interfere with them.

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
 
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Why? You need to see the color of which market it belongs to, and if its land or sea does not matter, only the market access does.
What if sea zones were striped rather than solid coloured? I think being able to easily differentiate between land and sea tiles would help visual clarity.
 
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Do all trades have to be manual? Will there be a way to bulk export, say, all possible profitable goods in a node, or automate exports so you don't have to twiddle with it constantly like in Victoria 3?
 
I second this, although the actual capital of the country was Visegrád at this time.

Looking at the map, it would make sense for Szeben to have fairly good access to those areas though.

If a rich market based on the low countries didn't survive in testing I doubt this one would either, it doesn't make sense to make a market at game start if it's going to hurt the countries it's based in and the dissapear in a decade.
 
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Yes in the
Can burger estate use trade mechanics? Was it sad somewhere? I might have missed it
Yes in the DD

Supply and demand section, burgher trade is listed as one supply source

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%
 
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Will the prices of products on the market change seasonally? for example, the prices of fish during fasting periods, fuel in winter, or food prices during the "Hungry gap"
 
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My CD Team says that their research shows that those numbers are more akin to the 15th century, when Barcelona was in relative decadence, and Valencia in its golden age. In 1337, approximate numbers would be Barcelona about 25-35K, Valencia 20-25K, and Palma around 15-20K inhabitants; for that and other reasons, Barcelona was still the main trading center of the Crown of Aragon. We have a Castilian, a Catalan, an Aragonese, and a Basque on the team, so they have great fun discussing the historical setup for the Iberian Peninsula, and are also glad to receive feedback about it.
Sounds about right, although it may depend a bit on the period. Valencia was more important earlier (XII-XIII centuries), although I'd argue Barcelona and some southern France cities like Marseille had prosper a lot by the XIV century with Barcelona being my preferred location for market seat in 1337. In general I feel Genoa is the one overrepresented, since we now know it developed into a historical trade power, but in the earlier period there were a lot of Italian, French and Iberian cities vying for market control in the Western Mediterranean with no so clear advantage for anyone at the beginning of the period

Things like cotton were introduced around that time into Southern Italy and Iberia, but the imports from the Eastern Mediterranean were seen as higher quality and was definitely a lucrative trade. Pisa, Florence, Peruggia, Genoa, Marseille, Montpellier, Sant-Gilles and Barcelona were all competing from control of routes to Norman Sicily and North Africa, with Genoa (who get support from the the Hohenstafuen kings of Sicily), Marseille and Barcelona becoming regional winners.

I liked that your map showed the Barcelona market extending into Provence (before the battle of Muret of 1214 Barcelona and Provence had been in PU several times). Still that is an area that feels a bit more polycentric that represented. Toulouse for example was a regional powerhouse due to their dye industry, Marseille and Valencia had golden times in which they rivaled Barcelona and Genoa, and Florence and Pisa were highly relevant centers of trade. Representing all of that will drive to very small markets but otherwise the seat is determined only by slight lead on the specific moment you want to do the photo. They key is that despite having a small hinterland all of them had a very power projection into other markets in Africa and the Eastern Mediterranean.

And Johan, knowing you have a fellow Aragonese in the team I'm now really eager to hear about how you represent the War of the Two Peter, who just happen to enter Project Cesear timeline with the earlier start date.
 
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with provided information i am confused why Konigsberg is consuming food from Riga market? is is also consuming food from Lubeck market at the same time?

Perhaps the screenshot isn't from the same time as the map we've seen and Konigsberg has changed markets
 
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I'm really interested to see Orders. Bishoprics, Leagues and non civil states/institutions in action. These entities look to be an interesting piece on the board.
 
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And Johan, knowing you have a fellow Aragonese in the team I'm now really eager to hear about how you represent the War of the Two Peter, who just happen to enter Project Cesear timeline with the earlier start date.

Lots of things happen before 1444 in this period in Spain. I really hope they represent the several civil wars and kingdom wars etc. And that Granada cannot just be wiped out in the first year super easily
 
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One day (not soon), it will be fun to talk about how France works with its unique subjects.
This is such a waste of game design philosophy.... You talk about estates and privileges and then the french get some unique bullshit. And in the end we end up with eu4 style "unique dlc buttons and gimmicks".

No thanks
 
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I'm really interested to see Orders. Bishoprics, Leagues and non civil states/institutions in action. These entities look to be an interesting piece on the board.
with the confirmation that we will be able to build buildings in other people's territory, we might see the implementation of the various orders' vast network of castles across europe
 
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Do all trades have to be manual? Will there be a way to bulk export, say, all possible profitable goods in a node, or automate exports so you don't have to twiddle with it constantly like in Victoria 3?
Johan said in DD that trade can be fully manual, fully automated, or a mix of both where you automate trade but choose to manually control specific goods.
 
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I assume you want to have one in Lisboa. Well, as Portugal is in my top 5 of countries I play, I'm not sure really about whether I want my own market or not. If I can buddy up with Castille I want to keep it for longer.. and also, as soon as I start getting things imported from africa, their pops and buildings helps keeping the demands high..
What are your other 4 countries in the top 5 ?
 
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So if the top two locations have e.g. 90% and 89.9% access, the top location could gobble up all of a rare resource before the second one gets any? I feel like it would make more sense for it to be distributed based on the access, so it would be closer to a 51/49 split between those two locations (obviously more complicated for the actual number of locations with access, this example assumes they’re the only two locations in the market).