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Tinto Talks #10 - 1st of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the final of four on the economy system for our secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”.

Today we will talk about all the things related to trade, including markets, merchants and trades. This talk is heavy on tooltip screenshots, and a lot of concepts to digest, so I recommend checking it through multiple times.

Markets
Let's start with the markets themselves. These are dynamic and will change through the playthrough, as countries can create new markets and disband their old if they so desire.

Each market has a center in a location, and the owner of that location is in control over that market.

Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.

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The Riga market has control over much of the Baltic region in the start..

A market has merchants, who have a power depending on buildings and maritime presence in the market, and a merchant capacity which depends on the infrastructure for trade that country has in that market. The Merchant Power impacts in which order exports from a market are executed, as there is not an endless supply of goods in a market. The Merchant Capacity impacts how much goods the merchants can ship.

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This is the source of the Hanseatic League’s merchant capacity in Riga.



As you can see in the market screenshot, every good has a local price, and a supply vs demand value as well, let's take a look at the beer price in the next tooltip.

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Cheap beer, must be paradise…

Prices change every month towards the Target Price, which depends on the supply and demand of the goods in the market, and the current price stability. Price stability can change through the ages as well.

Supply & Demand
The supply of each good in a market depends on several factors.
  • The output from RGO’s
  • The output from buildings
  • Base Production
  • Burgher Trades

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s, even if an RGO with that raw material can produce much more, and there are buildings that can be built to provide these as well.

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%

So what about demand? This is primarily from the maintenance, input, and construction of buildings, recruiting and maintaining armies and navies, and the demands of the population, but there are more sources as well.

Of course, trades themselves impact supply and demand as well.

Trade
You can use your merchant capacity in a market to either export a good from that market, or import a good from another market. Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337.

A trade is a variable amount of goods shipped from one market to another market, purchasing it for the local price in the exporting market. The longer the distance between the markets, the more capacity each good will require to ship, and higher the maintenance costs will be.

Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time. A trade always has to trace a path on the map.

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Our merchant power makes us get the amount of goods we want in Riga.

There are also the Sound Tolls, if you pass through Öresund or the Bosphorus to consider.

Diplomacy and Trade
There are many diplomatic factors that impact the trade and market mechanics of Project Caesar.

First of all, you can “Deny Market Access” to a nation owning a market, which will reduce the attraction of their markets on your locations, but also make anyone with merchants in those markets upset with you.

You can also request and/or offer market access preference making it likelier for a country’s locations to belong in a certain market.

If you dislike paying Sound Tolls, you can always try to ask for exemption for it through diplomacy with the country controlling the strait.

Some countries have isolated themselves completely, so you need to negotiate a specific exception to allow you to export or import from their markets.

There is also the possibility to embargo a country, which would block the merchants from that country to trade in your markets, and also to not be allowed to move through your country. Of course, this a legit casus belli, so use with care.

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.

We mentioned in an earlier Tinto Talks that Markets will have stockpiles, so that surplus can be stored for a rainy day. There are buildings that will increase the amount that can be stored.

There is also food in the markets, with prices adapting to the supply and demand of food as well.

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Västra Götaland är Sveriges Kornbod!

There are also automation options where you can assign trading completely to the AI. You can also lock some trades so that the AI will not interfere with them.

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
 
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Any chances we can rename the Market names? as the names "Praha" and "Kyiv" are not only cr***e but also inconsistent with everything else, as some are "local" names and others Anglicized. "Kyiv" was never spelled that way until only recently, hence making this more political to the modern situations rather than for any other reason, either make Köln and Praha into Cologne and Prague, or rename Riga to Rīga, Lubeck to Lübeck and Moscow to Moskva. Or let us rename them

Thank you.
 
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I do not think that if there's any disadvantages about the dynamic geographical names setting in EUIV. It's optional anyway.
 
:+: Spark’s Note 6: Ming Honey :+:

The nice thing about the having the powers of the mind expanded by the Johan Melange (I keep a house blend of smuggled office dandruff in an ivory snuffbox) is prescience allows us to expect some things, but even I, sparkling optimist, did not expect all this. A few interesting historical dynamics are modeled here.

First, we turn our eyes east to the rustic idyll of Novgorod, whose second chief export after beaver butt was a deep, reddish honey highly valued in the orient. For centuries, traders sent this product south along the Volga to Constantinople, and from there as far east as China. In fact, Novgorod imported common light honey despite being a major producer. So, the next time someone asks you in a bar if China and (Eastern) Rome knew each other, you can say they were swapping honeys back when nobody was looking.

Novgorod was an early Kontor in the storied Hanseatic league, and we work our way west with the old German joke about the cannibal who did not trouble himself choosing between the rich and poor Herring burghers’ daughters, as it doesn’t matter what they’re wearing ‘cause they all taste like fish.’ Historically, the salt trade from Bremen was an essential activity in the fish markets as there were no major deposits north of Denmark. This empowered the League to strongarm their way into various privileges from the northern kingdoms, and not always peacefully.

The salt must flow in the Baltic, and it did flow. Meanwhile back in Imperial China, a state monopoly over salt was a major revenue source for multiple dynasties. When these markets failed, intentionally or inadvertently, unrest and revolt followed. Pirates & Wakos, hostile market manipulation, all sounds like dlc to me, but the groundwork is there for bugs in the Lockean export machine and it’s all very exciting.

Finally, our most interesting anecdote comes from Queen Isabella of Castile. Following the conquest of Granada and the desire to transition to a modern, imperial Spanish army, she penned a letter saying her infantry should be modeled on the famous Swiss heavy halberdiers. In time, this effort culminated in the century of the Tercio.

Oft is asked on this forum why Europe won and China did not win (although Beijing is a bit more than a Russian warm water port so this remains to be seen..) Competition is a simple explanation, and perhaps this single example of Swiss infantry who leveraged a wealth of iron to slay mounted knights, inspiring Spanish monarchs to adopt their arms & armor coincident with the rise of gunpowder, highlights how one continent was able to get a bit ahead of the game.

Whether this was emergent from material culture, or simply related, is a story that for the first time will be modeled here. So, well done Tinto. I suppose great software is a bit like ice sculpture- the Swan was in there all along.
 
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Would it be possible for a country that controls multiple markets to manipulate some of those markets to benefit others? I'm thinking about the British Empire exploiting colonies, for example by forcing colonial markets to export to the London market at a more beneficial price for the Londoners. (I'm also wondering how the market system might tie into whatever is this game's version of Liberty Desire, thinking specifically of the American Revolutionary War. Is tea a trade good, and can the Boston Tea Party happen in-game?)
 
With that mindset you make deterministic history again instead of creating a sandbox

Playing with sand gets boring after the while, because at the end of the day, it's just sand.

If you add specific toys to the sandbox, you can get more out of it because the toys can be combined or used in different ways.
 
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Would it be possible for a country that controls multiple markets to manipulate some of those markets to benefit others? I'm thinking about the British Empire exploiting colonies, for example by forcing colonial markets to export to the London market at a more beneficial price for the Londoners. (I'm also wondering how the market system might tie into whatever is this game's version of Liberty Desire, thinking specifically of the American Revolutionary War. Is tea a trade good, and can the Boston Tea Party happen in-game?)

I think with mercantilism and trading priority, goods in the English market would enter London first and then the surpluses would go to the Americas. American markets could also be made to block foreign tea which would mean that distant EIC tea would be expensive and the only option for purpose.


According to Johan:

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.
 
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Maybe didn´t read it but i have one question to banned goods. When you have a market like the byzatine trade node which contains christian AND muslim pops...how the game will handle this special situation?
Will the muslim nation have a "black market" e.g for wine?

Thx! :)
@Johan
 
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Will control and market access have compound effect on the development/wealth of a location? If yes, then doesn't that hinder the development of areas far from the capital a little too much?
 
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  1. Will forts have positive impact on trade? In EU4 historically important forts, that secured trade roots are often immediately deleted by players, because they are "useless farmland fort"?
  2. Will drainage basins have impact on the game? I doubt you will implement every single small river into the game, but historically a simple rafts, even on small rivers, where used to transport goods downstream.
  3. This is why Gdańsk was so important for Poland and there were so many arbitrations and wars between Poland and Teutonic Order. Kraków was more like a important stop on East-West land trade route, while whatever was produced in Poland was transported via rivers to Gdańsk and there sold. This is also reason why trade along Dniper river was not as prominent in Commonwealth, because Commonwealth never secured Dnieper mouth and large part of Dnieper drainage basin were located in unstable Wild Fields. In some sense drainage basins were the major consolidating factor in trade at that time.
  4. Assuming a country would control Gibraltar, Tarifa, Ceuta and Tangier, and would heavily fortify that area and have sufficient cannon technology, wouldn't it be enough to institute Pillars of Hercules toll? (I am asking, I don't know)
 
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  1. Will forts have positive impact on trade? In EU4 historically important forts, that secured trade roots are often immediately deleted by players, because they are "useless farmland fort"?
Agree. This would be really cool for land trade.

Assuming a country would control Gibraltar, Tarifa, Ceuta and Tangier, and would heavily fortify that area and have sufficient cannon technology, wouldn't it be enough to institute Pillars of Hercules toll? (I am asking, I don't know)

I don't think cannons from shores can be fired that far so ships can kinda just pass through with little issue. The same cannot be said for bosphorus and Oresund.
 
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I don't think cannons from shores can be fired that far so ships can kinda just pass through with little issue. The same cannot be said for bosphorus and Oresund.
We are talking about 15 km, so if cannot has 8 km range (not sure when such cannon started to exist) then going through would be risky even if accuracy was bad.

Even not by cannon both shores can see each other, so maybe by having naval base there
 
Wasn't the ideal way to control rivers and straits to have a chain across the water that could be lowered and raised to block ships from going through?
This is possible to do on some rivers. Great example is the Golden Horn in Constantinople which did have a chain like you mentioned. However straits are significantly wider than rivers so chains weren't used on those.
 
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Sorry if someone already asked this but what exactly happens if someone for example sacks Venice, does the trade region gets diminished, extinguished, does the nearest strongest town take over the trade area (maybe even during peace by simply getting more important) or is it always Venice until someone actively chooses to downgrade it?
 
We are talking about 15 km, so if cannot has 8 km range (not sure when such cannon started to exist) then going through would be risky even if accuracy was bad.

Even not by cannon both shores can see each other, so maybe by having naval base there
I think no realistic gunpowder cannon can hope to damage a ship that far, let alone have any chance of aiming accurately. At most a cannonball might randomly fall on the ship and kill one unlucky man, really not enough to enforce a sound toll
 
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The Finnish (Swedish) border on the Karelian Isthmus is too much to the west. Now it's at Seivästö, west of Terijoki. It should be more like this:

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1323 border in red:

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1715182356160.png


1715182547941.png
 
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