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Tinto Talks #13 - 22nd of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we give out top-secret information about our upcoming unannounced game with the code name Project Caesar. This time we will touch a little bit on the aspect of religion in this game.

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Every country, pop, or character has a religion they adhere to. This impacts their relationship with the place they currently are, and their relationship with others in the world.


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This is the religious setup of Aragon in 1337.

Every religion in Project Caesar belongs to a Religion Group, such as Christianity or Paganism. Fellow religions in the same group consider each other to be merely Heretic, whereas religions in different groups condemn each other as Heathen.

Every religion has a specific view of other religions as well, that ranges from Kindred to Enemy, which impacts relations between countries of different faiths, and how populations of another faith view your country.

Each country also has their own tolerance of their true faith, of heretics, and of heathens, which impacts how happy or angry the population will be depending on which country they belong to.


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The Same Religion here, is from the law relating to valid heirs.

The religious unity of your country has a really large impact on the satisfaction of your Clergy Estate.

Important to know is that in Project Caesar, you just do not send missionaries to your locations and eventually they have changed religion. Here conversion is a slower process, which relies on government activities and infrastructure.


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A unique building for Muslim countries that has a tiny impact on conversion.

Each religion belongs to a group, which impacts which tolerance is applied and how religions interact with each other. Religions in the same group are viewed as heretics, but those of another group as heathens.

The groups we currently have are, but that may change as we continue to develop the game.
  • Christian
  • Muslim
  • Eastern
  • Dharmic
  • Zoroastrian
  • Manichean
  • Judean
  • Andean
  • Pagan

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The current Christian religions. Take into account that they are very much WIP!

In some games we have made there have not been any major differences between religions, merely being different modifiers, and while some religions in Project Caesar are still only a few modifiers, many will have mechanics. Right now, we have made unique mechanics for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, the various Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, Nahuatl, Hinduism & the Inti religion. Each of these will get their own unique later development diary.

Now every religion will still have some modifiers that describe them, in many cases it is things that enable or disable certain mechanics. Some examples include the fact that countries with Jain as their state religion can not start wars without a casus belli, and that Calvinist countries will never reroll the dice in a battle, as everything is preordained.

Stay tuned for next week, where we talk about another completely new feature that adds flavor to the game.

Sadly, I can’t reply today, as I am at some management thingie in Stockholm, but @Pavía will help you out!
 
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Hinduism, Jainism and Sikhism, as Buddhism is considered 'Eastern', correct. We don't like much that 'Heathen' division between Hinduism and Buddhism either, so we're looking for a better solution, although it's complicated.
you could "accept" a religion if you are syncretically inclined maybe? Proseltyzing religions like Catholicism and Sunni Islam cannot, but polytheistic or non-expansive religions could. Just an idea I had rn
 
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About religions:
I think having karaim alongside rabbinical Judaism would be good. The decline of karaism was most likely a long process and its golden age wasn't too long ago at start.
I also think the Armenian Apostolic Church should be its own thing from Alexandria since it has been isolated for long and is almost an ethnoreligion at this point. It would allow more Armenian flavor.

About the map:
Why is Catholicism colored in Mamluk vomit?
And IMO the Golden Horde converted not long enough ago so their population shouldn't be full Sunni.
 
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Since the Romuva are still in Lithuania, would we have unique options for integrating/tolerating/being Romuva? Or would playing as Romuva lithuania just be really bland with nothing unique for them and difficult with europe against you?
 
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It seems slightly strange to me to have very small and specific faiths such as Sámi shamanism and then have a blanket "animist" faith that cover most of the southern hemisphere. I of course know that everything we see is WIP so maybe it's a placeholder before a more granular depicition is implemented?

That being said, I really like that religions have different relationships with eachother!
Yes, exactly this.
 
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I am very, very disappointed if the Islamic faiths remain the homogenous blobs they are in EU4 and on the attached map. There is a wealth of local movements that could be represented, and it's particularly bad for "Shia" as in reality the "Shi'ite sects" can vary radically in theology and doctrine; they are defined primarily by their allegiance to a specific line of Imams; a Nizari and an Imami have significant differences and simply would not see the other as "of the same faith"; they would see each-other as 'other' as how they would see a Sunni.
 
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I wish there would be a bit more meat on the bones of these Tinto talks, e.g. in this one you could have gone into the mechanics for the different religions rather than saving those for later dev diaries.
 
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As for China. Will Han be balkanized into strange cultures like Zhili Shandong and Jin like in EU4 or will there be a Han culture?
 
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I'll refrain from complaining TOO much for now since WIP and all that, but I'll just add my voice to the choir saying there needs to be better representation of certain religions.

Strange that Strigolniki and Krstjani are in but Armenian church isn't. Strange that North America is very colorful while South America seems barren. Hopefully that isn't the case for long, and isn't a trend for other facets of the game, since in EU4 South America always got the shortest end of the stick.

Overall I hope the population system we finally have is used to the fullest to represent a lot more variety by the time the game is ready.
Again, Miaphysitism utilizes the same autocephalous mechanic as the Eastern Orthodox. The Armenian Apostolic Church will be one of the autocephalous churches alongside the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Syriac Orthodox Church.
 
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Far as divisions go, think it's cool seeing Tzintzuntzan and the Mixtecs/Zapotecs no longer being Nahuatl. Does make it less of an issue that the religion is named after a language since it's at least limited to people who speak it now. Wonder how the non-Nahuatl mesoamerica language will function.
 
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Ok, I will take the opportunity to nitpick:
  • Please rename Nahuatl and Inti to Teotl and Huacaist respectively. Nahuatl is a language and Inti is just one god, which was secondary even among the Incas until the 1440s, not to mention all the other dominant regional cultures in 1337. Teotl is a Nahuatl word for divinity, and Huaca a sort of Andean fetish/god.
  • I say that the Huastecs should not be Mayan, culturally or religiously. They migrated away before the rise of the historical Maya civilization and thus share little with them beyond a somewhat related language. The blanket non-Nahua, non-Maya Mesoamerican religion you seem to have created would be a better fit.
  • The generic Mesoamerican religion should probably be extended to the Mesoamerican peoples of Central America (the Lenca, Mangue/Chorotega, and Subtiaba). They were mainly sun-worshippers as I recall, but they were culturally distinct from their Chibchan/Misumalpan-speaking neighbors.
  • If you're already splitting Mesoamerica in 3, I'd recommend considering splitting it in separate religions for at least the Purepecha and the Oaxacan Oto-Manguean speakers. I'm not quite sure what to do with the Chichimecas, there aren't a wealth of sources on their religion, but many of them seem to have been culturally related to the Nahuas, Coras and Huicholes.
  • I'd also recommend considering giving the Pipil and Nicarao the Nahuatl/Teotl religion. Although they didn't practice flower wars like the Nahuas of Central Mexico, neither did those of West Mexico or the gulf coast, and they are definitely culturally related and shared deities.
  • Most of the Costa Grande of Mexico was not Nahua at 1337, it was dominated by small, under-documented groups. Nahuatl religion might not be accurate there, but I do understand just grouping it under that.
  • The bulk of the Fula, Manding, Hausa, and Songhai peasantries were pagan in 1337. The Malinke, Songhai and some Hausa elites (depending on the city-state/kingdom, as Gobir remained pagan for longer than the others) were Muslim. The Soninke, Dioula and I believe the Kanuri were largely Muslim as a whole. I would have expected most of those areas to be majority pagan/minority Muslim, but on the map they appear to be the opposite.
  • It is weird to have distinct pagan religions in some regions and a placeholder animist in others. I don't insist on splitting them up that much, but I do hope they will at least be split up by continent. Why didn't you carry over Fetishist? You mentioned Inti but it's not present on the map, so that's a good sign there are some religions that have yet to be added to the map.
  • What's the source on Sindh being Buddhist in 1337? Wikipedia says that it had declined by this period and was limited to Gilgit Baltistan, whereas Sindh would be a mix of Sunni and Hindu pops.
 
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I'm seeing a lot of it here, but I do really hope that "Animism" is split up considerably over time. Some recognition of how different the general trends of religion in, for example, Southern Africa would be in terms of its values rom North America. Some flavor for religious/cultural practices in the form of modifiers more specific to regions would be appreciated, even if lacking the mechanics of organized religion.

You also mention Andean as a current working religious group but not Mesoamerican. Is Nahuatl not in its own religious group at this time?
 
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I believe that Animism is currently working as a placeholder as others have pointed out, so I wont discuss Africa, but some recommendations that also coincide with the map of Russia we got last week. The Mari, Mordvins, and Chuvash should be represented on the map. The Mari and Mordvins of course had their own pagan beliefs at this time, as there wasn't widespread conversion to Christian until really the 16th century. I also recommend looking at splitting shamanism in Eurasia as the Jurchen belief system is wildly different from the European, Komi, and West Siberian religions. But the Mari and Mordvins should also be pagan, not Orthodox already. Likewise, the Golden Horde at this time wasn't wholly Muslim at this point either, there should be more representation of other religions within their borders, mostly Tengriism, as Islam was only just proclaimed the Golden Hordes official religion by Uzbeg. many people in the Horde at the time still followed Pagan beliefs or Buddhism for quite some time
 
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