Tinto Talks #13 - 22nd of May 2024

[Javilos Septim]

To me it seems like a very poor workaround.
Chinese and other East Asian morality systems are complicated to represent in a game mostly based on Abrahamic understanding of religion, so... Wipe it all out, now everyone's a Buddhist in China. There are no Confucian bureaucrats, there no local faiths, there is no syncretization, China is a Buddhist country and the clergy is made out of Buddhist monks, who the state supports as single state religion.

Confucianism in EU4 represented the historical influence that Confucian ideals had over the Chinese and sinicizied states like Korea, and you could also assume it also meant to represent stuff like Daoism and Chinese Folk Religion under it. Naturally it still had the problem that the system assumed all religions worked like Western Abrahamic ones, when in reality things like Buddhism and other polytheist faiths should naturally syncretize within such a system, but it avoided things like representing China as being a religious monolith it wasn't, to a religion that wasn't even a majority in China to booth.

I agree it's not perfect, but IDK if there's any good, not overly complicated to develop, workaround. I fear making the religions very mixed would lead to ugly homogenization during the game, which, IMHO, would be worse than starting with it all homogenized. Making all Clerics in China Buddhists is, indeed, pretty bad, but so would be making them all Confucian scholars. You could divide the population between faiths (like, let's lay, 60% CFR, 20% Buddhist, 15% Confucian, 5% Taoist). IMHO, that's worse. Confucian scholars were Confucian over everything else, ofc, as did Buddhist monks, but I don't think your "average Lee" chose one religion and rolled with it, he practiced all. Creating a "chinese religion" which encompasses all religions in China also has its problems. It feels weird being so national and generic, like, the name and "feel" doesn't fit at all with the rest, but also, do you extend it to Korea? Or, you create a special religion for china, another for korea, another for vietnam, another for japan... Won't it look weird compared to the huge western religions?

What I dislike most about the situation in EU4 is that it leads you to think of Confucianism like a religion, when it wasn't. Buddhism is, AFAIK, closer to the Abrahamic concept of religion, even if it's also very different. In any case, I'm not adamant on this position, and I don't really have much more than basic knowledge on the topic.

 

[DEKESKUI]

For me it is better to put names of historical provinces

 

[RouteVenus]

-Judean (Rabbinic, Karaite, Samaritan and Haymanot (Beta Israel) are enough IMHO)

I’d like to see Sabbateans make an appearance as well

 

[overseer700]

I have three questions; the first two are more serious.
1.) On the subject of terrain types, if their are flood plains; I was thinking about a potential mechanic to do with them. to preface I live in Saint Louis area in the USA & there is a giant floodplain on the Illinois side with bluff cliffs separating it from the none flood plain land. I was wondering if cliffs will be represented there & if the flood plains might grant a de-buff in the form of flooding events & some kind of infrastructure you need to build & maintain to forestall their consequences. I was thinking possible events of the sort would probably be best represented by a verry long disabling of the buildings till a quarter of the build cost in material is consumed by them & a small population loss & larger population flight to surrounding locations with some kind of pull. you could also have armies take attrition in them & have some degree of crop failure.

2.) I was also wondering if the long standing phenomena of population sinks & population sources will be incorporated in the form of some kind of system in the game. some places attract adults but due to factors which cause population turn over among other potential causes the local populations of these places don't replace themselves at scale through the generations except through a syphon effect on the hinterlands population. I'm verry interesting to see whatever you guys have cooking in the population department. I was thinking, as it has been mentioned that cities & rural areas will be distinct that that would be the place you might implement that; there would probably be a stage of urban growth that the city location would not be able to maintain it's self without robust reserves of rural population it could compete with other cities to pull from. the market system & capital control dynamics also seems to be systems that could be used to stratify the hierarchic effect potentially. this could also potentially be used as an incentive for lords to gang up on the owner of a young city for depriving them of their peasants

3.) will there be a system of some kind to represent feuds? I would like to see some kind of personality like Götz of the Iron Hand, or some kind of way that a leader can perceive slights that will form the basis of personal & familial feuds. after all why else can we even call any of these complex modes of government in any of these places feudal if there are no long standing feuds serving to potentially keep them complex. imagen mercenary captains offer lower rates if it means they can attack a feudal enemy. or that specific noble & etc ruling families have their own diplomatic agenda that they will try enacting if they hold the reigns, this including that they just want to raid, harass & bully a specific location or government & etc.

 

[brulgorilla]

Will Buddhism belong to the eastern group or dharmic?

 

[Lindaegan]

Will Buddhism belong to the eastern group or dharmic?

Unfortunately, eastern.

 

[newewo]

focusing on religion and diplomacy is a cool concept.

 

[Riaman98]

I hope ck3 religion map of India also gets rectified, no way Buddhism was that wide spread in 867 or 1066. It should be restricted to Pala Empire of Bengal and Magadh.

 

[Amtays]

How will, more and less, "false converts", like conversos and moriscos be represented? Will their pops be jewish/muslim or christian? Will the game represent any kind of secular practicing religiousness, like modern day secular practicing jews?

 

[Tomray94]

I just wanted to point out that this ocurred in the thread lol, poor @bokorthedust

 

[Coolguy33]

Hello! This is my first time posting on the forum, though I’m a long time fan!

I was wondering if the team has considered the inclusion of dissenter Anglican/Anglo-Protestant Denominations, or other Anglo-Protestant offshoots that existed in this period. Methodism/Wesleyanism specifically played a key role in the early United States (and even became the majority religion in the US around the end timeframe of the game). I think the inclusion of Methodism, as well as possibly a “Puritan-esque” type dissenter faith would give a significant amount of color to the colonial world, and I think it would be additionally great flavor for the English civil war. Conflict between these different Protestant groups was key to the developement of early American and early modern British society.

I understand these games of course cannot simulate everything, but I think this would be a good addition to consider.

Thanks!

 

[bokorthedust]

I just wanted to point out that this ocurred in the thread lol, poor @bokorthedust


View attachment 1140081View attachment 1140080

Bunch of kiss-asses

 

[Flamie]

I'm a tad late, but I'm sure that's fine. I assume this will be a fairly unpopular suggestion with a lot of players because of familiarity, so I'm not gonna try claiming popular support, but either way:

Since both the Roman Catholic (commonly referred to as Catholicism) and Orthodox Catholic (commonly referred to as Orthodoxy) faiths claim to be catholic (to simplify: it means they claim to be the one, true Christian church) I feel like, for the sake of accuracy, you could possibly consider changing what is currently called Catholicism to something like Latin Church or whatever else would be fitting. You've made name changes like this in other GSG titles, abandoning what is familiar to make a name more accurate or correct.

I hope this is at least taken up for consideration, but that's obviously not up to me to decide

 

[Elfangor567]

Gnostic is an oversimplistic term that academia loathes. Groups like the Valentinians or the Sethians would have just called themselves and considered themselves Christians. However, Manicheanism is too distinct to be classified as a form of Christianity. Manicheanism and Mandeanism (if present in the game) should be called simply that. Also, I see no reason to rename Zoroastrianism imo.

It's religion groups, it's simplistic by default. You can argue what religions belong in which group, but if you want groups, you should avoid naming any group after a religion. If you want that, then we should also remove groups such as "eastern" or "dharmic", since they are also incredibly broad. Nevermind "pagan".
As for Zoroastrian, the answer is to allow for other versions of Mazdan religions, such as the Khurramites who might still have a small following in the Azerbaijan area. By naming it after one religion, you make it harder to add others if you want to. (It also helps with mod compatibility)

 

[JacobMH]

Hello, I am trying to get some information on what the religion in the area of Alania, in the Caucasus area is. I did some attempt at research, it seems like it could be Khabzism?

I did not find much information on it though, thanks.

 

[Rajputs]

Googling this everything I see points to Sindh being majority Sunni in 1941

You are right. My bad, I meant in the urban areas most cities were majority Hindu or Sikh. In addition, Baloch rule in Sindh from 1783 promoted further Baloch migration into rural areas which had already been under way since the 1600s and would likely have raised the share of Muslims in the rural areas further. In any case the timeline in question starts in 1300s/1400s where it can be reasonably assumed that together Ismailis, Shias and Sunnis were a plurality or a minority and Hindus the majority. The Ismaili past of Sindh is forgotten today but under the Soomros, Sindh had become Ismaili and it was spread by Ismaili missionaries who extensively used Hindu imagery and ideas to convert people - meaning that many people followed some kind of syncretic faith in the early millenium.

 

[Rajputs]

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we give out top-secret information about our upcoming unannounced game with the code name Project Caesar. This time we will touch a little bit on the aspect of religion in this game.

Every country, pop, or character has a religion they adhere to. This impacts their relationship with the place they currently are, and their relationship with others in the world.

This is the religious setup of Aragon in 1337.

Every religion in Project Caesar belongs to a Religion Group, such as Christianity or Paganism. Fellow religions in the same group consider each other to be merely Heretic, whereas religions in different groups condemn each other as Heathen.

Every religion has a specific view of other religions as well, that ranges from Kindred to Enemy, which impacts relations between countries of different faiths, and how populations of another faith view your country.

Each country also has their own tolerance of their true faith, of heretics, and of heathens, which impacts how happy or angry the population will be depending on which country they belong to.

The Same Religion here, is from the law relating to valid heirs.

The religious unity of your country has a really large impact on the satisfaction of your Clergy Estate.

Important to know is that in Project Caesar, you just do not send missionaries to your locations and eventually they have changed religion. Here conversion is a slower process, which relies on government activities and infrastructure.

A unique building for Muslim countries that has a tiny impact on conversion.

Each religion belongs to a group, which impacts which tolerance is applied and how religions interact with each other. Religions in the same group are viewed as heretics, but those of another group as heathens.

The groups we currently have are, but that may change as we continue to develop the game.

• Christian
• Muslim
• Eastern
• Dharmic
• Zoroastrian
• Manichean
• Judean
• Andean
• Pagan

The current Christian religions. Take into account that they are very much WIP!

In some games we have made there have not been any major differences between religions, merely being different modifiers, and while some religions in Project Caesar are still only a few modifiers, many will have mechanics. Right now, we have made unique mechanics for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, the various Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, Nahuatl, Hinduism & the Inti religion. Each of these will get their own unique later development diary.

Now every religion will still have some modifiers that describe them, in many cases it is things that enable or disable certain mechanics. Some examples include the fact that countries with Jain as their state religion can not start wars without a casus belli, and that Calvinist countries will never reroll the dice in a battle, as everything is preordained.

Stay tuned for next week, where we talk about another completely new feature that adds flavor to the game.

Sadly, I can’t reply today, as I am at some management thingie in Stockholm, but @Pavía will help you out!

Also it is very questionable if there were Jain majority areas in Gujarat or Sunni majority areas in Southern India at the start of the game.

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

Hello, I am trying to get some information on what the religion in the area of Alania, in the Caucasus area is. I did some attempt at research, it seems like it could be Khabzism?

I did not find much information on it though, thanks.

I assume Ossetian national religion is more fitting, as Alans are Ossettians today. It is called Æssæg Din I think. Khabzism is a Circassian concept.

 

[dragonluke]

I'm a tad late, but I'm sure that's fine. I assume this will be a fairly unpopular suggestion with a lot of players because of familiarity, so I'm not gonna try claiming popular support, but either way:

Since both the Roman Catholic (commonly referred to as Catholicism) and Orthodox Catholic (commonly referred to as Orthodoxy) faiths claim to be catholic (to simplify: it means they claim to be the one, true Christian church) I feel like, for the sake of accuracy, you could possibly consider changing what is currently called Catholicism to something like Latin Church or whatever else would be fitting. You've made name changes like this in other GSG titles, abandoning what is familiar to make a name more accurate or correct.

I hope this is at least taken up for consideration, but that's obviously not up to me to decide

I live in a orthodox country and literally no one call it catholic. Plus we call the other church catholic

 

[Lindaegan]

Also it is very questionable if there were Jain majority areas in Gujarat or Sunni majority areas in Southern India at the start of the game.

Yeah I was very confused about it. It looks like there was a Sunni majority in Thanjavur, which truly makes no sense to me at the time (or at any time). The city was under Pandya rule until 1311, literally two decades before game start. No matter how badly the Vijayangara-era texts speak of the Ma'Bar sultanate, I doubt they would have forcibly converted that area, but not Madurai, in 26 years.

I'd certainly like to see some changes on the matter when we come around to the Tinto Maps posts. At most there should be a small Sunni minority, consisting mainly of Arabs traders and perhaps the wives they had taken. And certainly there was a sizeable Jain minority in the South then, but that is all it was, a minority.