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Tinto Talks #13 - 22nd of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we give out top-secret information about our upcoming unannounced game with the code name Project Caesar. This time we will touch a little bit on the aspect of religion in this game.

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Every country, pop, or character has a religion they adhere to. This impacts their relationship with the place they currently are, and their relationship with others in the world.


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This is the religious setup of Aragon in 1337.

Every religion in Project Caesar belongs to a Religion Group, such as Christianity or Paganism. Fellow religions in the same group consider each other to be merely Heretic, whereas religions in different groups condemn each other as Heathen.

Every religion has a specific view of other religions as well, that ranges from Kindred to Enemy, which impacts relations between countries of different faiths, and how populations of another faith view your country.

Each country also has their own tolerance of their true faith, of heretics, and of heathens, which impacts how happy or angry the population will be depending on which country they belong to.


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The Same Religion here, is from the law relating to valid heirs.

The religious unity of your country has a really large impact on the satisfaction of your Clergy Estate.

Important to know is that in Project Caesar, you just do not send missionaries to your locations and eventually they have changed religion. Here conversion is a slower process, which relies on government activities and infrastructure.


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A unique building for Muslim countries that has a tiny impact on conversion.

Each religion belongs to a group, which impacts which tolerance is applied and how religions interact with each other. Religions in the same group are viewed as heretics, but those of another group as heathens.

The groups we currently have are, but that may change as we continue to develop the game.
  • Christian
  • Muslim
  • Eastern
  • Dharmic
  • Zoroastrian
  • Manichean
  • Judean
  • Andean
  • Pagan

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The current Christian religions. Take into account that they are very much WIP!

In some games we have made there have not been any major differences between religions, merely being different modifiers, and while some religions in Project Caesar are still only a few modifiers, many will have mechanics. Right now, we have made unique mechanics for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, the various Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, Nahuatl, Hinduism & the Inti religion. Each of these will get their own unique later development diary.

Now every religion will still have some modifiers that describe them, in many cases it is things that enable or disable certain mechanics. Some examples include the fact that countries with Jain as their state religion can not start wars without a casus belli, and that Calvinist countries will never reroll the dice in a battle, as everything is preordained.

Stay tuned for next week, where we talk about another completely new feature that adds flavor to the game.

Sadly, I can’t reply today, as I am at some management thingie in Stockholm, but @Pavía will help you out!
 
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Is that an approval or a disapproval?
Definitely approval. Manicheans are fascinating, a true (old) world religion that spread out of Persia and had adherents from Europe to China (where the last remnants of the religion still survive). Augustine of Hippo was formerly a monk of the Religion of Light.
 
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Will another countries influence, like trade power or other influence mechanics you guys are thinking, will it affect other countries provinces or area religion? Like will a stronger Trade Influence or power have a small effect on converting countries of other religions provinces to your religion?
 
Sindh province in India shouldn't be Mahayana. It should be sunni majority. Sindh region was the first to adopt Islam in the Indian subcontinent after the Islamic invasion in 7th century. It has been Muslim eversince, although there were a significant number of Hindus as well. But for sure it was never Mahayana. Check sindh province religion on wiki for sources
Sindh should be majority Hindu with a large Ismaili minority and a smaller Sunni minority and even smaller Jain minority. Sindh didn't adopt Islam but the Arab Habbarids were Muslim. The Soomras were Hindu, then Ismaili and then Sunni but they had been replaced by the Sunni Sammas. Even in the 1941 Census Sindh had a Hindu+Sikh plurality so it can reasonably be assumed that in 1300s the Hindu population would be in the majority.
 
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Sindh should be majority Hindu with a large Ismaili minority and a smaller Sunni minority and even smaller Jain minority. Sindh didn't adopt Islam but the Arab Habbarids were Muslim. The Soomras were Hindu, then Ismaili and then Sunni but they had been replaced by the Sunni Sammas. Even in the 1941 Census Sindh had a Hindu+Sikh plurality so it can reasonably be assumed that in 1300s the Hindu population would be in the majority.
Googling this everything I see points to Sindh being majority Sunni in 1941
 
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Why do you let a computer do your thinking for you?

I assist with information gathering, problem-solving, and providing insights based on a vast amount of data. While I can offer useful suggestions and process information quickly, the final decisions and critical thinking remain with you. Think of me as a tool to enhance your thinking, much like how calculators are used for complex math or how search engines are used to find information.
 
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That is not at all what I was referring to wrt I:R's holy sites and relic system. I:R features a great system around creating, embellishing and sacking holy sites combined with relics one can use in respective holy sites.

This really doesn't sound like it fits EU at all.
To some extent, I can understand why CK3 has them being more RPG like. Imperator is far enough back in history that it can lean on mythical aspect to excuse how some chest or whatever giving an arbitrary modifier. EU is not about that stuff.
 
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Yippee, it looks like they added the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex (Mississippian Religion, the blue in the American Southeast and Midwest area). I think that faith's color should be red or green, since those pigments are emphasized in a lot of artefacts and viewed as significant in many descendants of prehistoric Mississippians.
 
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Since we have groups like Bogomilism and Strigolniki, will there also be Waldensians there? There were some big cases of persecution against then in the Alps, and they also collaborated with some Protestants during the Reformation, so it would make sense.

Also, considering the other Tinto Talk regarding organizations, that showed different Patriarchates, could it also have something similar for Eastern Catholics Churches? In 1337 it would basically be only the Maronites in Lebanon, but during the game period there will also have the Council of Florence, which signed the union not only with the Orthodox but the Miaphysites as well, and later there will also have things like the Union of Brest in the PLC and the St. Thomas Christians with the Portuguese in India. So maybe after a certain date, if a catholic country control an area with relatively large Orthodox, Miaphysite or Nestorian population, it could convert to Catholicism as an Eastern Catholic Church, but it would have different effects compared to if they would convert in the normal way, and also some ways which they could revert to their previous faith, depending on some decisions or events?

 
We have those 5 stages, yes.

Will there be more interactions and mechanics regarding Papal elections and decisions made in religious councils? Assigning Metropolitans in EU4 was a bit straightforward and simplistic, will there be more substance in organized religions with regards to clergy ranks and what they do/provide to the population/government?
 
I assist with information gathering, problem-solving, and providing insights based on a vast amount of data. While I can offer useful suggestions and process information quickly, the final decisions and critical thinking remain with you. Think of me as a tool to enhance your thinking, much like how calculators are used for complex math or how search engines are used to find information.
Can we ban this joker?
 
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Representing the Chinese 'systems of beliefs' is difficult and complex, indeed, and I think that it wouldn't be possible to have an entirely accurate depiction of them, because of this complexity. However, we're trying to depict them in the best possible way to make it work with the different game systems.
At the risk of appearing blunt, even just the EU4 system of having a big "Confucianism" blob would be an improvement over having China as Mahayana.
I too hope this gets revisited and we get a proper representation of the various Chinese systems of morality (which definitely included Confucianism in them, and the fact that technically Confucianism is a philosophy and not a religion changes little in practice).

The main issue probably arises from the fact that different belief systems in East Asia frequently mixed together even at the level of single practitioners, so maybe some way to represent how some pops can follow more than one religion at once is needed, if possible coding-wise.
 
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Transylvania majority catholic?
Did you really make it majority hungarian, like in ck games, again? Really?


Edit :According to Kurzer Ueberblick der Literaturgeschichte Siebenbürgens von der ältesten Zeit bis zu Ende des vorigen Jahrhunderts , there were 400k romanians, 300k saxons and 150k hungarians in 1310 AD Transilvania.


While that would make orthodox an overall minority, there would be many more majority counties, outside Székely Land and Sieben Stühle
This.
 
Regarding the religious makeup of Asia:

There has to be some sort of an abstract delineation of religious vs philosophical ideologies - painting most of China "Mahayana" seems to not do it historical justice. I suppose a separate system for "Chinese religion" where there is an official state religion - as favoured by the Khan (of Yuan) or Emperor (of Ming) is central and allows varying degrees of syncretism with other Chinese faiths like Shenjiao, Tengrism and Shamanism (which affects the acceptance levels of each of these religions along a scale). Obviously, the degree of syncretism would be capped by something concrete (like a maximum number of religions you can syncretize with) or something more fluid (like a reduction of tolerance for the "true faith" for every religion you syncretise with). Alongside such a regional mechanic for religious syncretism, there should be a mechanism to incorporate - philosophies like Daoism and Confucianism within the population of China to somewhat attempt to showcase the overlap and fluid nature of Chinese religions - which cannot be categorised as easily as Abrahamic faiths. Moreover, the religion of the ruler and court may or may not have a huge effect on the general populace and their religious practices in this part of the world.

Speaking of religious diversity - a similar system is necessary for Hinduism. I don't think splitting up the religion into sects would be necessary, but a more complex version of the personal diety system from EU4 could be rather interesting. There should be sects - Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism and Smartism - followed by subsects (akin to personal dieties) such as Krishniite Vaishnavism, Jagganatha Viashnavism, Kalikula Shaktism, Srikula Shaktism etc. which could add for regional flavour and such sect practices only truly effects the ruler, the clergy & gameplay mechanics - but the population remains generally "hindu" without the need for such categorizations as it wouldn't matter much what sects the general populace follows.

That being said - regional diversity is even more necessary for Hinduism outside the Indian subcontinent. The traditions, deities and practices of Cham, Javan, Dayak (Kalimantan) and Balinese Hindus is so vastly different that it'd do a disservice to lump them in with the same mechanics of, say, Rajput and Marathi hindus. Such a "regional flavour" mechanic can easily be achieved by locking certain mechanics, sects or deities to culture groups, i.e., only certain cultures can access certain deities/mechanics - while still being the same religion and sharing a kindred opinion of one another despite the great differences. This again can be paired with a similar philosophy mechanic of Advaita (more mystical - one-with-god approach with relevant gameplay mechanics) vs Dvaita (supporting dualism - and can be encouraged or disregarded by supporting or dismissing various Bhakti movements).

All of this sounds very complex now that I've typed it out - but you guys have already achieved most of it in EU4 already so I'd rather not disrespect you guys by underestimating what is achievable or not for the team. These are just my two cents and I'm eagerly looking forward to the game. :)
 
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Vishishtadvaitaists in shambles
I left it out in fear of being perceived as too much of a nerd but I guess looking back I already failed at that 2 paragraphs in. But in all seriousness I think that vishishtadvaita can be grouped with the advaita wing? I wanted to mention the dvaita-advaita duality without getting into the intricacies simply because it can be easily achieved by a slider lol.
 
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Some feedback.

I like China and Korea being Buddhist rather than Confucian. Confucianism is closer to an ideology, or form of government, even if it includes certain religious elements. I know eastern religions are very complicated, but what you show is a fair compromise. The specifically "Mahayana" aspect of the religion is minor, the important thing it's that is a Chinese Buddhism, different from South-West Asian (Theravada) Buddhism, bc of different origins and evolution, and specially from Tibetan Buddhism, which unlike Theravada, did have influence in China, as the Yuan and later the Qing favored it. That said, I'm worried Mahayana is too widespread in Tibet and Xinjiang. Sadly, I don't have numbers, but it feels like most, if not all pops in Tibet, and maybe most in Xinjiang should be Tibetan Buddhists rather than Mahayana. As "Tibetan Buddhism", doesn't fit with the other names, I'd suggest using "Vajrayana", like is used in EU4.

I see Japan is colored different, though. I can accept it, it seems like an ok compromise, even though I'd prefer it to be fully Buddhist, but as long as there are mechanics that make so all Buddhist religions somewhat friendly, as there is no way the Japanese would try to "convert" the Koreans to Shinto, for example. I'd suggest using the name Shinto-Buddhism for the tag, and maybe you could implement a slider, kind of like the Piety one for the Muslims in EU4, where every Shinto-Busshist independent realm can adjust if they want to lean more into Shinto (maybe increasing centralization, and/or legitimacy, but lowering opinion of Buddhist nations) or into Buddhism (maybe boosting commerce, at the cost of also giving more sway to the monasteries, thus lowering centralization).

Also, I'd like to suggest another religious group categorization. I'd go by:

-Christian

-Muslim

-Judean (Rabbinic, Karaite, Samaritan and Haymanot (Beta Israel) are enough IMHO)

-Dharmic (Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana, Shinto-Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism)

-Mazdean (Zoroastrianism)

-Manichean

-Druze

-African (All African native religions, basically everything in Africa except Islam and Christianity)

-East-Asian (Native, non-organized religions in East-Asia, thus, excluding all that come from the organized tradition of Indo-Aryan origin that fits under the Dharmic category, but heavily influenced by them. Like the ones in Assam, Manipur, the Gondi (Koitur) of central India, the traditional Tamil religion of southern India, the non-Buddhists in South-East Asia, the still not Sinicized peoples of the Chinese southern hinterlands, and the native religions of Indonesia until Java and Borneo, and the Philippines).

-South-American (Inti and south-American animism)

-Mesoamerican (Maya, Aztec and neighboring religions)

-Noth-American (Native religions, excluding the Inuit-Yupik)

-Shamanist (Mostly Eurasian folk religions, Sami, Siberian, Tengri, Jurchen, Bon and Inuit-Yupik)

-Pagan (Polytheistic, mostly European folk religions characterized by their early conflict with Christianity. Baltic paganism, Scandinavian paganism, Slavic paganism and Caucasian traditional religion)

-Oceanian (Melanesian, Polynesian, Micronesian, Australasian and Taiwanese religions, mostly non influenced by Dharmic ones, unlike the ones in the East-Asian category).
 
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Some feedback.

I like China and Korea being Buddhist rather than Confucian. Confucianism is closer to an ideology, or form of government, even if it includes certain religious elements. I know eastern religions are very complicated, but what you show is a fair compromise. The specifically "Mahayana" aspect of the religion is minor, the important thing it's that is a Chinese Buddhism, different from South-West Asian (Theravada) Buddhism, bc of different origins and evolution, and specially from Tibetan Buddhism, which unlike Theravada, did have influence in China, as the Yuan and later the Qing favored it. That said, I'm worried Mahayana is too widespread in Tibet and Xinjiang. Sadly, I don't have numbers, but it feels like most, if not all pops in Tibet, and maybe most in Xinjiang should be Tibetan Buddhists rather than Mahayana. As "Tibetan Buddhism", doesn't fit with the other names, I'd suggest using "Vajrayana", like is used in EU4.

I see Japan is colored different, though. I can accept it, it seems like an ok compromise, even though I'd prefer it to be fully Buddhist, but as long as there are mechanics that make so all Buddhist religions somewhat friendly, as there is no way the Japanese would try to "convert" the Koreans to Shinto, for example. I'd suggest using the name Shinto-Buddhism for the tag, and maybe you could implement a slider, kind of like the Piety one for the Muslims in EU4, where every Shinto-Busshist independent realm can adjust if they want to lean more into Shinto (maybe increasing centralization, and/or legitimacy, but lowering opinion of Buddhist nations) or into Buddhism (maybe boosting commerce, at the cost of also giving more sway to the monasteries, thus lowering centralization).
To me it seems like a very poor workaround.
Chinese and other East Asian morality systems are complicated to represent in a game mostly based on Abrahamic understanding of religion, so... Wipe it all out, now everyone's a Buddhist in China. There are no Confucian bureaucrats, there no local faiths, there is no syncretization, China is a Buddhist country and the clergy is made out of Buddhist monks, who the state supports as single state religion.

Confucianism in EU4 represented the historical influence that Confucian ideals had over the Chinese and sinicizied states like Korea, and you could also assume it also meant to represent stuff like Daoism and Chinese Folk Religion under it. Naturally it still had the problem that the system assumed all religions worked like Western Abrahamic ones, when in reality things like Buddhism and other polytheist faiths should naturally syncretize within such a system, but it avoided things like representing China as being a religious monolith it wasn't, to a religion that wasn't even a majority in China to booth.
 
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