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Tinto Talks #13 - 22nd of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we give out top-secret information about our upcoming unannounced game with the code name Project Caesar. This time we will touch a little bit on the aspect of religion in this game.

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Every country, pop, or character has a religion they adhere to. This impacts their relationship with the place they currently are, and their relationship with others in the world.


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This is the religious setup of Aragon in 1337.

Every religion in Project Caesar belongs to a Religion Group, such as Christianity or Paganism. Fellow religions in the same group consider each other to be merely Heretic, whereas religions in different groups condemn each other as Heathen.

Every religion has a specific view of other religions as well, that ranges from Kindred to Enemy, which impacts relations between countries of different faiths, and how populations of another faith view your country.

Each country also has their own tolerance of their true faith, of heretics, and of heathens, which impacts how happy or angry the population will be depending on which country they belong to.


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The Same Religion here, is from the law relating to valid heirs.

The religious unity of your country has a really large impact on the satisfaction of your Clergy Estate.

Important to know is that in Project Caesar, you just do not send missionaries to your locations and eventually they have changed religion. Here conversion is a slower process, which relies on government activities and infrastructure.


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A unique building for Muslim countries that has a tiny impact on conversion.

Each religion belongs to a group, which impacts which tolerance is applied and how religions interact with each other. Religions in the same group are viewed as heretics, but those of another group as heathens.

The groups we currently have are, but that may change as we continue to develop the game.
  • Christian
  • Muslim
  • Eastern
  • Dharmic
  • Zoroastrian
  • Manichean
  • Judean
  • Andean
  • Pagan

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The current Christian religions. Take into account that they are very much WIP!

In some games we have made there have not been any major differences between religions, merely being different modifiers, and while some religions in Project Caesar are still only a few modifiers, many will have mechanics. Right now, we have made unique mechanics for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, the various Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, Nahuatl, Hinduism & the Inti religion. Each of these will get their own unique later development diary.

Now every religion will still have some modifiers that describe them, in many cases it is things that enable or disable certain mechanics. Some examples include the fact that countries with Jain as their state religion can not start wars without a casus belli, and that Calvinist countries will never reroll the dice in a battle, as everything is preordained.

Stay tuned for next week, where we talk about another completely new feature that adds flavor to the game.

Sadly, I can’t reply today, as I am at some management thingie in Stockholm, but @Pavía will help you out!
 
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Last, as already pointed out in a comment:

Nāhuatl is a name that refers to multiple Uto-Aztecan languages (because there are more than 20 different varieties of Nāhuatl if i remember correctly), with Nāhuatl being the one we usually think about, other than the official language of the Aztec Empire (the word nāhautl itself means "clear-sounding", which has little to do with religion), and Inti is just a god of various Andean religions that in many faiths of the area is important, but not the most important (sometimes even less important than the moon goddess). So it would be better to rename those to something different, and I like the names proposed in the comment (so Nahuatl -> Tēōtl(-ism?) and Inti -> Huaca/Wak'a(-ism?)). The latter might not be a problem if there are more religions with different main gods though.
After some research, I want to do a few corrections and expansions to my previous comment:
1. I had a macron wrong: it should be teōtl, not tēōtl. My bad. I want to point this out because I've noticed that you are using diacritics (including macrons) in this game (which I approve). Also, when I was speaking of the lingua franca of the Aztec Empire, I wanted to say "Classical nahuatl", not just "Nahuatl"
2. As pointed out in the same comment I quoted before, the Huastecs should not be considered Maya. While they were so originally, by the time of the Spanish conquest they had been separated for at least 2000 years, and they had developed a different culture and religion compered to their brethrens in the Yucatán peninsula. Fun fact: the Aztec god Ehēcatl (technically an aspect of Quetzalcōātl) was taken directly from the Huastecs, who considered him the most important deity
3. Regarding the Andean religion(s): if there will be just one religion, Huaca/Wak'a (with eventual suffixes) would probably be the best name. If there will be more faiths, however, maybe it would be better to use the names of the main deities: Inti in Cuzco, Pacha Kamaq (Pachacamac with the Spanish spelling)/Ichma (the original pre-Inca name of the god) in the area controlled by the Ichma, Si/Shi for the Chimu, Viracocha/Wiraqucha for the southern part of the Andes, especially near lake Titicaca (like for instance Tiwanaku). Also, Inti shouldn't exist at the start, since its cult would become more important than Viracocha's only after Pachacuti's reforms (he also created the Inti Raymi). Or, if all of these will be one single religion, it could also use, as suggested in another comment, some mechanic to keep these differences in some way, which would also be interesting.

Considering the length of this, I might have made mistakes, so, as usual, correct me if that happened.
 
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Regarding Translyvania, meaning this:
1716421744972.png


It appears it's going to be overwhelmingly Catholic with only a handful of pockets Orthodox.

1716012914664.png


Everyone agrees that there were 4 main ethnicities in Transylvania: Romanians, Hungarians, Saxons and Szekely. With only the Romanian being Orthodox.
View attachment 1135177
View attachment 1135179
View attachment 1135180
View attachment 1135182
But who was the ethnic majority? That's the actual rabbit hole:

This map is a 1495 estimate from the Hungarian Academy of Sciences - Dark green Romanians.
Kingdom_of_Hungary_-_Ethnic_Map_-_1495.jpg


This map is a 1186 estimate from Ovidiu Drimba, a Romanian historian - light green Romanians.
FormatiuniPoliticeRomanestiSecolele_IX_XIII.jpg


Given that both seem to agree on Crisana, Banat and South Transylvania having a Romanian majority.

I do not understand why those regions aren't Orthodox on the map, given that Hungarians as well agreed those regions are Orthodox.
 
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Will have a Tinto Soundtrack/ Music talks so we can analyse the music , I need some good battle music so I can crush my enemies as the soundtrack says I should , Latin Catholic music and Mongolian/ Horde throat singing and can’t forget the music of the levant and Arabia
 
I hope we can get a secular country. Atheist pop is unlikely but secular states are not. It can have huge debuffs or ıt can make dominant religious population angry but it would have tech cost or whatever.
 
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I labeled all the unlabeled religions, to the best of my ability.
In North America the dark blue in Northwest Canada and east of "Great Plains" is probably associated with Athabaskan/Dené peoples, while the green in the east looks similar to the pre-contact distribution of Algonquian peoples. The small red location in northern Labrador likely represents the remnants of the Dorset culture, but I don't see any signs of the Thule/Inuit unless the pink location west of Hudson Bay is them.

One of the things that Paradox GSG's in general and the EU series in particular has trouble representing is how certain environments can be much more exploitable by certain people groups than others. The costal Thule continued to spread across the Canadian Arctic Archipelago even as the Norse settlements in Greenland failed during the Little Ice Age, and local tribes lived successfully in the Amazon and Congo rainforests that were completely untraversable wastelands to European colonialists to the end of Project Ceasar's timeline and beyond.
 
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I know it's not the focus, but I'm very disappointed with the Australian map. At worst it should look like the sahara, but more like persia. There were north-south trade routes through the interior that are left as wasteland, as well as a corridor from the Brisbane area to Lake Eyre. The Nullarbor was mostly uninhabited. The Shark Bay area had a lot of different groups stretching inland.

Land borders between peoples aren't well documented, but language groups have been mapped with high accuracy, I would consider high density of differing language groups to correspond to higher population areas.
 
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Regarding Translyvania, meaning this:
View attachment 1137399

It appears it's going to be overwhelmingly Catholic with only a handful of pockets Orthodox.

View attachment 1137400

Everyone agrees that there were 4 main ethnicities in Transylvania: Romanians, Hungarians, Saxons and Szekely. With only the Romanian being Orthodox.
View attachment 1135177
View attachment 1135179
View attachment 1135180
View attachment 1135182
But who was the ethnic majority? That's the actual rabbit hole:

This map is a 1495 estimate from the Hungarian Academy of Sciences - Dark green Romanians.
View attachment 1137401

This map is a 1186 estimate from Ovidiu Drimba, a Romanian historian - light green Romanians.
View attachment 1137402

Given that both seem to agree on Crisana, Banat and South Transylvania having a Romanian majority.

I do not understand why those regions aren't Orthodox on the map, given that Hungarians as well agreed those regions are Orthodox.
I feel like we are nitpicking ahead of time, but here is the Orthodox ethnicties in the hungarian map overlaid over the paradox map:
1716431843455.png
 
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It's also worth noting that if you look real close, the bulk of the Catholic area in the region is hashed over, indicating a sizable Orthodox presence in the area, though not a majority.
 
Fair play. But were they populated back then (19th century or whenever EU5 ends) I wonder. Whatever the correct answer is, it's another good argument for dynamic provinces.
They weren't. Especially in Espírito Santo, which was left as dense forests up to the arrival of immigrants by the end of the 19th century. The coast is hilly, with some of the highest peaks in Brazil and insanely forested. I believe the map is pretty spot on
 
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They weren't. Especially in Espírito Santo, which was left as dense forests up to the arrival of immigrants by the end of the 19th century. The coast is hilly, with some of the highest peaks in Brazil and insanely forested. I believe the map is pretty spot on
Minas Gerais ended up as the most populous state, but half of it is wasteland in the map.
 
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Gonna join in with the people wondering about the catch-all animism. Personally I dont necessarily mind that level of abstraction, but when christianity has so much variety and it looks like north america even has a ton of religious variation, it really stands out. Just assuming those regions arent WIP, I did love how fetishism in EU4 was able to incorporate aspects of other faiths, that was a fun and immersive representation of syncretism, and personally I wouldnt mind the catch-all animism if it incorporated something like that dynamically.

However I do think animism is just WIP based on these images, considering that Andean is considered a distinct religious group in one image but the Andes are simply marked as animist on the map. So our concerns might just be totally misplaced
 
A few different thoughts, though the last one is definitely my favorite:

1. As many other comments have mentioned, I think it would be remiss to not represent Anabaptists as they really don't fit into Lutheran, Calvinist, or Anglican at all and they were a pretty significant movement at the time (They even still exist today).

2. Similarly, it would be valuable to include some religion to represent the nonconformists to Anglicanism. You probably don't need to represent every little sect, but overall there should be something to represent them (the Baptists and Methodists especially would cause a stir in England and move to the new world to be incredibly widespread in the colonies).

3. Last, after doing a little research, I presume that the Strigolnichestvo are in the game to represent proto-protestant movements in Eastern Orthodoxy much like the Lollards and the Hussites are for Catholicism. As some others have mentioned, I think the Waldensians would be a pretty good addition in this vein. However, my main suggestion is that I think the Stephanites would be a rather interesting representation of a similar "proto-protestant" movement in the Ethiopian church. By my (non-professional) estimation they seem to have been at least as influential as the Strigolnichestvo and existed for a comparable length of time. Martin Luther himself favorably interacted with an Ethiopian deacon who *may* have been influenced by the Stephanite movement based on how well they agreed on certain aspects of theology.
 
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I feel like we are nitpicking ahead of time, but here is the Orthodox ethnicties in the hungarian map overlaid over the paradox map:
1716431843455.png
Yes, even according to the Hungarians Transylvania wasn't as Catholic as Paradox's map makes it out to be.

Better nitpicking ahead of time than after it's too late I would say.
 
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