Tinto Talks #19 - 3rd of July 2024

[Johan]

Can institutions spawn in multiple places or is it limited to one? Like could Japan and Europe independently spawn Pike and Shot? What about existing institutions spawning, it would be weird if China embraced the Printing Press institution from Europe considering they had already invented it

Limited to one atm.

We could in theory add a game-rule that allows multiple "spawns". Maybe 1 per sub-continent ?

 

[Johan]

Why do they not need them?

They got plenty of things to "REDACT"

 

[Johan]

Is New World a prerequisite to exploration across the Atlantic or rather just a modifier?

It is VERY helpful, but not a requirement.

 

[Johan]

I think the setting for spawning institutions could have a bit more options. Something like this:

- historical - hardcoded locations, spawns there no matter what (locations as described above)
- flexible - the institutions will spawn dynamically but in a region/subcontinent of the historical location
- dynamic - as described in the post, requirements and regional restrictions
- free - any location in the world could spawn the institution if it fulfills the requirements.

And i guess the "dynamic" would be the default setting

"Random City" is probably best.

 

[Johan]

It seems like the game is more front loaded with ages compared to the second half of the game. How do longer ages impact the game compared to shorter, early game ages?

about a century each

 

[Johan]

I see some intitutions are gated behind having a specific technology. Can the opposite be the case, and researching a specific technology be gated behind embracing a certain institution?

yes

 

[Pavía]

View attachment 1157641It should be Dàdū!

Actually, I suggested yesterday in the Tinto Talks draft document to make it Xī'ān, as per Cháng'ān, the first capital of the Han dynasty, but probably @Johan didn't see my comment.

About the Dàdū-Beijing naming, we had a discussion about it as there are many possible options, and in the end, we decided on Beijing as the base one as it's the most recognizable, but there will be other options to be had with dynamic loc and custom loc.

 

[Johan]

So a stable Chinese or Indian empire / kingdom would be able to spawn pretty much every institution from the 3rd age onwards?

maybe, or maybe not..

these pre-requisites can change

 

[Pavía]

Age of Traditions sounds just... Wrong.
As if traditions just disappeared when the middle ages ended.

Have it be Age of Feudalism or just Late Middle Ages.

Not everywhere in the world there was a feudal system in 1337, and the 'Late Middle Ages' doesn't fit with the flavor we're setting for the different ages; that's why we thought of 'Age of Traditions', as it's a more common ground. But we're open to feedback, as usual.

 

[Johan]

2. Since trades are between markets, do you gain the spread in the destination market's location (so not even necessarily within your own borders is you aren't the market owner), or does it spread through each location the trade route passes through? If neither, where do you gain the spread?

at the "import" location.

 

[Johan]

About Institutions, is it possible to get them before an Age spawns?

no

 

[Pavía]

"Confessionalism" seems VERY specifically christian. What would that institution spreading into a non-christian province even represent?

It is true that the rise of 'Confessionalism' was mostly felt in Christianity. It could also be argued, though, that other societies and religions also experimented important changes more or less at the same time; I'm thinking about the religious change in Persia from a Sunni-majority into a Shia-majority; all the religious processes that took place in India, including the born of Sikhism and the religious reforms of the different Mughal emperors; or the religious fights in East Asia, of which the religious situation of Japan at the final stage of Sengoku Jidai is probably the most important.

 

[Johan]

is there any mechanic for armies adopting artillery and native armies adopting cavalry as i would've though those would be institutions

Building up an Artillery Producing Infrastructure, and getting access to Horses.

 

[Johan]

Do ages simply trigger based on a timer, or whether or not the conditions for one of the institutions in the next age are met, or some other mechanism?

Currently on a timer, as that got us the best results.

 

[Johan]

Why Stockholm for the military revolution? When I got my military history degree a decade ago we placed the start in the Netherlands (while casting doubt on the existence thereof)

You can credit either Maurice of Nassau or Gustavus Adolphus..

I'm swedish so, yeah..

 

[Johan]

I think there should be other criteria for the selection of the location that spawns an institution. Like, to spawn Enlightenment, the place should have fully embraced the Scientific Revolution. To spawn Industrialization, it should have the institution "Manufactories" complete. And so on.

I agree 100%

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Flavour Question:
Will Character fashion Appearances change with the ages?
Like big curly black wigs during Absolutism.
Or white powdered wigs during Revolution age?

Perhaps with a dynamic shift. Old characters keeping their looks upon a new age, while young fresh generated characters start with the new looks, signaling the dawn of a new Generation.

That is more or less how I would do it yes, the idea of fusty old men not keeping up with the fashions is pretty fun. There isn't any intention to make many different age differences for release though, across all the cultures it's simply too much work. But it's something we have our eye on for the future, especially in Europe.

 

[Pavía]

Yeah. Feudalism was not some brilliant advance in statecraft invented by Charlemagne. It was a forced necessity that developed out of the inability of the Frankish Empire's successors to solidify state power. It's not a universal thing, and I see no way to reframe it as some aspect of statecraft that is universal without it overlapping with Legalism.

Lots of things have already been written about Feudalism, at least since Marc Bloch wrote his Feudal Society. To simplify it, we've described it this way in the game:

Over time, most societies develop a need for a common structure with stronger and more permanent institutions of government. After the fall of the Roman Empire, this need came to be filled by a number of institutions and customs that taken together are often considered to be part of the European Feudal system.\n\nFor similar reasons, permanent government and societal systems with similar features formed over time all over the world, some of which have roots that go far further back than Feudalism itself.

Making its birthplace the Carolingian Empire is also a means of simplifying it. By the way, on this topic, I pretty much recommend the works of Charles West on the Post-Carolingian period, as he has synthesized in them much of the academic debates of the last decades.

 

[Pavía]

I have a question. Protestant Lutherianism started outside the city of Leipzig (Luther spread Lutherian confession outside the city in woods near) so shouldn't confessionalism start in Leipzig? Augsburg was in 1555 and was a treaty that basicly said "Rulers can chose their confession and everyone under them should follow their rullers". I must say I remember these a bit wrong for sure as I haven't read anything about these for a long time

We've picked Augsburg precisely because of the Peace of Augsburg, as it consecrated the principle of Cuius regio, eius religio.

 

[Johan]

One tactic currently is to yoink colonialism by being a Chinese colonizer or some such. Is there a reason to change this to require west europe/africa vs it's current state?

We want to have the game with default options to be more or less historical.