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Tinto Talks #24 - 7th of August 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

proximity_map.png

The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

proximity_kalmar.png

Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

map_of_harbors.png

The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

bristol_useful.png

Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


venetian_arsenal.png

This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


blockade_tt.png

This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

maritime_change.png

I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

blockade_capacity.png

This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

blockade_required.png

There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

venice_naval_range.png

Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

ships_builder.png

WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
 
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On Hulks again...

ships_builder.png


[EDIT] Ok, please ignore these Hulk comments. I now realise there was a medieval vessel called a Hulk or Holk, that was a transport ship and looked just like the image you have here.

Now I notice that they are actually buildable! I have to assume you have come to the name Hulk by accident, and mean something else. What type of vessel are you trying to represent with this? As I mention above, [later] Hulks were specifically old ships, usually old ships of the line, that were worn out and no longer suitable for active service at sea, and would be restricted to harbour duties. Masts would usually be removed.

They only really started to be found in harbours (at least around Britain) after the practice of 'rebuilding' older ships ended, in the middle of the 18th century. Before then, old ships were usually dismantled, and the decent timber put to one side for reuse, the rest sold for other purposes/disposed of. The ship would then be "rebuilt" often years later, to usually a completely new design, but with the same name as before. I use the quote marks because it was all a bit of a fiction intended to not alarm parliament over the number of new ships being built. It was as expensive, if not more so, than just building a new ship. After the practice stopped, the navy found use for otherwise redundant old hulls in harbours, and the hulk was born (kind of - there would have been some, in much smaller numbers, before this)
 
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Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

1) Will it be possible to attack hostile ports and destroy enemy fleets in harbour (start a battle) with a raiding or some other mechanic?

2) Naval combat in the period covered by this game almost always started with a bombardment and devolved into a series of boarding actions. Lacking separate bombardment and melee phases and determining the attack value of a ship based solely on the number of guns will drastically reduce the accuracy of the naval combat simulation. It will certainly prevent a proper simulation of a boarding focused force fighting against a long range gunnery focused force (Koreans vs. Japanese).

Having a separate melee and bombardment phases with separate melee and bombardment attack values and shifting the the amount of ticks a bombardment and mele phase takes as time progress/ technologies are researched would be an improvement.

An even better system would be one where ships have a melee (melee value should go down with casualties taken - hp going down), ranged, and mobility value (determines the chance of switching from ranged to melee combat, or staying in the current type of combat). Ships would initially deal ranged damage, and then a ship with higher mobility would have a chance to switch to melee if its melee damage advantage is greater than its ranged damage advantage (+ admiral traits). This would help simulate, for example, the naval combat of the Imjin War, where Korean ships stayed out of boarding range of Japanese ships and blew several much larger fleets to pieces. It would also help to simulate a force of fast melee-focused ships catching up to a slow cannon-armed ships and capturing them in a boarding action.
 
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Witôjtaż
In the most recent dev diary i've noticed that the location of Putzig, which has been a seaport since the early middle ages. And thus i believe that it should have a higher "tier" natural harbor.

View attachment 1172819
"[..] However the time of the founding of the Port is mainly determined with the remains of its infrastructure. The oldest of them date back to the IX/Xth centuries, while the youngest to the XII/XIVth centuries."
Quoted from the introduction to Średniowieczny port w Zatoce Puckiej w świetle odkryć archeologicznych by Mateusz Popek
The sandbank near Rewa was a large obstacle to trade and access to the port, however this did not stop the port from operating and being chosen as the base of operations for the PLC "Navy" for a while.
It would also be a option for Poland to have a real port in case Gdańsk was owned by the Germans or any others. In that case they could simply build up the port in Puck or build a brand new one in some small town nearby with even better sea access and they could even call it something simmilar to Gdańsk like "Gdynia" ;)

View attachment 1172832
Here's my post on the location of Putzig and its harbor
 
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Nice is a nice harbor, nice!

I can't wait to see the absolute beautiful 3D models of the wooden ships. Whoever is making the 3D art in the later PDX games is cooking top-notch eye candy.
 
I'm going to discuss a couple of things with the content designer in charge of it, as I specifically talked with him about Cádiz and Cartagena being examples of top tier natural harbors. ;)

Cádiz and Cartagena are two Spain's naval bases even today, with Rota (Cádiz) being a joint US-Spain base :)
 
Cádiz and Cartagena are two Spain's naval bases even today, with Rota (Cádiz) being a joint US-Spain base :)
Technically Cádiz itself is no longer a naval base but rather the towns surrounding it (Cádiz itself is in a small barely accesible from the mainland peninsula off the coast), so its "metropolitan area" refers to the towns in the mainland proper.
 
Its doable yes
That is awesome! To follow up on that, will it be possible to limit provinces which (naval) unit they can build? Would be neat to have as a unique province modifier/building modifier that puts restrictions for bigger classes of ships.

edit: Would it be possible too to have a "strait" mechanic akin to hoi4, where passage for surface ships is not always possible but u-boats may pass. Perhaps if I build a canal that can only allow trade and transport ships to pass through, but not heavy ships.
 
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Naval range makes me cautiously optimistic about pirate stonks. When the cat is away, the mice will play.
 
between some locations?
There are a lot of examples of important canals being constructed since Antiquity, through the game's timeline to shortly after it

Notably, Canal des Deux Mers (Candal du Midi and Canal du Girone), which were massively important for Southern France, the Serbian canal system in Kosovo that created a large artificial lake, the Navigli of Lombardy, Grand Canal of China, Erie Canal, the Volga-Baltic Canal, the major canals of the HRE, the Canal of the Pharaohs (and the Khalij), the Danube-Tisza Canal etc.
 
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No, there's no remaining Punic infrastructure in 1337. But Tunis has a good Natural Harbor suitability, because of geography.
Speaking of good geography in the Maghreb- Bizerte and Oran (most of all), but also Algiers, Tamenfoust, Bejaia, Jijel, Annaba, Monastir, Gabes, Sfax, Tripoli and Djerba should have good ports
 
It's going to take some more time. Venice is so important, historically and gameplay-wise, that it's the kind of thing that we want to take as much time as possible to investigate and solve with our current available technology, so it looks the best possible way, while also having a proper gameplay feeling.

Surely there's a way to program something to do with naval projection controlling crossings, then potentially adding a crossing malus to specifically the Lagoon islands? Venice struggled when it was cut off from food supplies, with the navy able to support it then there was no way to realistically land an army there. If you can maybe add a modifier for naval projection crossing penalty +75% or something?

I guess the reality of Venice is it should be somewhat vulnerable as a city in its own way, with it not having particularly great natural resources (salt and fish) as well as a large population having to have been fed mostly through imports, if you stick 150,000 people on a small group of islands with no natural water that kind of happens. Every industry, every citizen relies on essentially needing to import everything, even with the fact that the lagoon being abundent in shellfish. There's only so much water you can purify with fires and large canvas sheets while relying on rainwater supplies and that weird pipe that fed some fresh water out of the Po (the one that made da vinci cry, alongside the idea of trying to modernise the water supply in general)

You could probably apply similar logic to some of the dutch cities like zealand under siege.
 
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Galleys were very relevant in the wars between Russia and Sweden during the 18th century and got developed into ”archipelago frigates” or skärgårdsfregatt in swedish. Look up the russian galley fleet and the battle of Gangut and guess why Russia still today celebrate 7th of august…

With that said i really hope skärgårdsfregatt will be a special ship for Sweden and i hope Sveaborg will be recognized in PC somehow.

Those to my knowledge are simply Mediterranean style galleys that are basically similar to 16th century Mediterranean war galleys which seem to have worked between the two because neither side had sizeable sailing ships and the geography of the area made it difficult for sail ships to enter in the first place. If even Venetians and Ottomans switched to sail ships in Mediterranean from 17th century, we can definitely say they were no longer able to contend with similar size "heavy ships".

As far their continued use, I wrote about that here:

Xebecs are lightships though rather than galleys, sure they carried oars but so did a lot of other sort of versatile smaller lateen or mixed-rigged ships. I honestly think galley's development should end with 16th century War Galley. That was the hard limit on galley size and armament quantity due to simple rules of physics, as galley size increases linearly, space required to operate a galley increases exponentially. Any corsair or pirate ships in 17th century onwards are just varieties of what lightships represent as a ship type.

Galleys also can't sustain blockades and I believe that whole ship type should not be able to blockade, though they can help defend or besiege coastal fortifications by acting as either coastal battery by beaching or carrying reinforcements which could maybe represented as a combat roll bonus to sieges happening in their tiles instead. This can also be compensated by galleys being good at piracy and privateering early on but being outclassed by lightships by 17th century as well.

By 18th century, galleys should really only exist in limited role as coastal patrols and amphibious transfer vessels (Since their low draught allows them to beach more easily).

Point being, they were used because they were able to still execute their amphibious role in shallow waters, not because they were capable of beating sailships in sea engagement. Moreover, unlike what EU4 depicts, an archipelago galley isn't an improvement over Mediterranean war galley, it is just a Mediterranean style war galley. Nor is a xebec an intermediate step between too but a lightship.

So in game terms, Sweden and Russia were simply building War Galleys because it might have suited their particular needs in that era, which they should still be useful for coastal patrols and amphibious roles.
 
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Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

View attachment 1172606
The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

View attachment 1172607
Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

View attachment 1172608
The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

View attachment 1172609
Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


View attachment 1172610
This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


View attachment 1172611
This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

View attachment 1172612
I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

View attachment 1172613
This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

View attachment 1172614
There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

View attachment 1172615
Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

View attachment 1172616
WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
Please, please tell me you’ve gotten rid of all the straits. You can’t realistically requisition enough fishing boats from the local population to transport an army across Gibraltar or the Bosporus in an orderly and timely fashion; that should require a transport fleet. Moreover, the way a player could simply walk across them was one of the reasons naval combat was largely irrelevant in EU4, and while the mechanics discussed here are a great leap forward, they still aren’t sufficient to model the critical position of navies in any military endeavor without also doing away with strait crossings.
 
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i never liked the flagship stuff
Damn, I actually really enjoyed it. Though it was pretty game-y, so it’d have to be toned down for something with the simulation focus of Caesar.
 
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