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Tinto Talks #29 - 18th of September 2024

Welcome everyone to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we inform you about how things will work in our super secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

In today's Tinto Talks we will delve into a few different and not entirely related topics, but they are important for what we need to talk about as they will be referenced a fair bit in future Tinto Talks.

Prosperity & Devastation
In Project Caesar this is a single value in a location ranging from -100% to +100%, where positive is prosperity and negative is devastation.

Prosperity represents how prosperous and resourceful a location is. A prosperous location increases development over time. Prosperity will slowly rise, unless different negative circumstances reduce it. If it goes negative it will cause devastation.

There is no direct way for the player to increase prosperity, but having a peaceful country will have it increase slowly over time.

prosperity.png

‘Market Fairs’ is a nice privilege to give.


Devastation represents how ravaged a location is. It includes burnt-down farms and abandoned villages, and the biggest sources of devastation are blockades and occupation.

It has a rather huge impact on a location over time, reducing how much food and raw materials it produces and the population over time.

If you have high devastation in any location in a province, the Age of Renaissance has an advance that enables a cabinet action, where you can focus on recovering devastation in a province, until it has recovered fully.

Ideally, you do not want any sort of war or conflict happening on your own lands.

devastation.png

Not ideal, let's end this war asap…

Development
One concept that has been in many of our previous GSGs is development. It has been used for various things, but in Project Caesar development represents how cultivated the land is, and how much it is used by the pops living there. The higher the development, the more people can live there, and the more it can be exploited.

As mentioned in earlier Tinto Talks, this is a value that the player mostly only has indirect control over, but you can have your cabinet working on improving development in an entire province at once.

Development helps a fair bit in improving the quality of a location, but all of these values here are still constantly being balanced.

development.png

The Woods probably has some other advantage…


Roads
We have had roads in many of our former games, and this game will also have roads. In Project Caesar this includes one of the most in-depth systems of roads we have ever made. A road is basically a connection between two land locations that reduces the proximity calculations from 40 down to 20. Most settled nations start with the capacity to build gravel roads, but there are three advances in later ages that will introduce new types of roads that can be built. Those roads will reduce proximity further, and increase movement speed for armies.

Now this may sound like it could be a lot of micromanagement if we had used the ways railroads were built in Victoria 2, or how roads were built in Imperator, but we have a few easier ways to build or upgrade road networks.

build_road.png

Here we have Kalmar selected and we are looking at building a road to Idre, which technically is in Norway at the start of the game. You can always build a road INTO the location of any country that has a positive opinion of you, so road networks can and will be connected for trade.
  • The green locations are locations you can afford to build a road from Kalmar to at the moment.
  • Striped locations are locations with a road network.
  • The white-outlined locations are the proposed path for the road between Kalmar and Idre.

Road building is one of the most important and fun parts of the control-growing gameplay loop.


Piracy & Privateers
To clarify here, a privateer is a pirate sponsored by a specific country. The ability to sponsor privateers has several different ways to unlock. First of all, every nation has access to an advance in the Age of Absolutism called Letter of Marque that reduces the cost for privateers while also making them sturdier. There are also unique advances in the Age of Discovery for some countries that allow them to hire privateers, while if you pick the Diplomatic Focus in the Age of Renaissance you have the possibility to recruit privateers that early.

Sponsoring a Privateer can be done in an area, and cost about 250 sailors per privateer, and 10 sailors each month they are active. A pirate/privateer in an area, depending on its current strength, can reduce the maritime presence of all non-friendly countries in all sea zones in that area. This hurts relations and will give them a way to get a casus belli on you though.


So how do you fight privateers? Well, you have a fleet of ships in any location in that sea area, and they will actively reduce the capacity of those pirates. Galleys are a bit better than heavy ships at hunting pirates, but light ships are by far the best at dealing with pirates, where a single light ship is about ten times as effective as a heavy ship at the start of the game.


privateers.png

You need sailors for your privateers, or they disappear..

There is a situation in the later half of the 16th century where piracy will start to grow in certain areas of the map. Pirates also have a chance to spawn from locations with pirate covens. These are buildings that peasants will build in coastal locations where control is very low.

privilege.png

This privilege when granted to the Burghers will help your privateers be more cost effective…




Stay tuned, as next week we will focus on Conquest, Integration and Casus Belli’s.
 

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This is the first iteration of the development mapmode, something that is not trivial to calculate (because answering the question of 'How much developed was each location of the world in 1337?' is... complex).

The way we crafted this first iteration was by setting the highest value we wanted for the most developed location in the world, which we considered to be Beijing, as being the main capital of Yuán, and a very, very impressive place by all the accounts of contemporary travelers. After that, we also discussed, coming from our experience on the map-making research process, some 'regional champions': Paris, Cairo, Delhi, etc. And from there, we 'irradiated' decreasing development values into neighboring areas and regions. Those values are also automatically adjusted by the different terrain types (as each one has a different positive or negative value), and then we made some manual adjustments, based on other factors that we aren't considering (like soil fertility). A last step was adding specific values to certain locations, to round up relative consistency.

Albeit not being perfect, we think that this is a decent system for a first iteration, as it also allow us to do further adjustments quite easily, based on playtesting and player feedback.

Hi devs,

I think for China you can use this map illustration. You don't have to read the Chinese out of it, each dot on it representing 15k recorded residence. The dashed lines are locations where people knew there were some notable population but numbers weren't available (various reasons, lost, missing, careless PhD students etc.) to researchers who made this.

The year 至元 refers to year 1290s (1264-94) as the Yuan lost count on their full population distribution very quickly afterwards. The illustration’s caption in the book also state this could be the case until at least 1320s. As the broad distribution shouldn’t change much since the distribution is almost identical to this one for first few years Ming made their demonstration draft. I took it from 《中国人口史》, which is an academic publication you can refer as professional and well regarded.

2F7E9EF87F7046DC5617A61BDB61FD44.jpg


For the record, there are bunch of researches still going on about Yuan’s demographic. The illustration only shows a collective study of some demographic archive and records and the view of historians who made it. But, the publication is good enough to the extent that we are talking about a game and we need at least some accurate representation than guessing.

The history behind why northern China is much less populated than south is a big topic. I believe some others would show up in the forum to discuss it when China leak is out. But now I just want to put things here so the dev can see it and have a second thought on numbers. Maybe.
 
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Will regions with a high location density have to pay much more to connect a city to another (as they will be separated by more locations) or is the cost of roads based on a distance calculation ?
 
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Would you be able to at least two different colour schemes for population, development etc for colour blind people? The eu4 development map was all the same colour for me o_O
 
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Life Expectancy value affects characters in the location, not pops. The idea is that a minister living it up in Versailles is likely to live a bit longer than one stationed in an undeveloped wartorn frontier, as he has better access to things like diet and healthcare.
I assume healthcare for much of the game period will have a negative effect on life expectancy? :)
 
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I love the privateer idea. Would be possible to play as a Pirate Nation? and if is possible, could you rent privateers to a country ? kind of like a Corsair or a Mercenary of the sea?.
 
I dont think development should impact the life expectancy, but rather the
(Current pop/ development based max pop cap )+ prosperity should determine the life expectancy

Otherwise India and China will always have high life expectancy because they have high population/development
 
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I get that China was enjoying a period of relative stability at the time, but having the Taklamakan Desert more developed then the entirety of Europe not named Milan is certainly a "creative" choice
 
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Will there be some more nuance to development? I like that the game steers away from the mana clicking system from eu4, but I liked the symbolisation that a production heavy province doesn't necessarily mean it's also of high military dev. Project Caesar seems to use the the ck3 method, which i find lacks this granularity...
 
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Seeing "Monthly development +0.0025" and other tiny numbers for development is quite unreadable I think, and it's difficult to mentally translate that into meaningful values.

Would it be possible to express these numbers as yearly values? That way the numbers are much easier to understand, like prosperity in Kalmar causing "yearly development +0.03" or for Kalmar in total it will be +0.2088 per year. Much better! It's also far easier to forecast its future development.

An alternative is to scale all the development numbers by 10 (or another number) and keep it monthly, but that might make the province development unsatisfyingly large in the late game.
 
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First time to see China in its entirety, but his terrain is too flat. In fact, the Yunnan-Guizhou Plateau in the southwest, the hills in the southeast, and the basin topography of Sichuan all have a large number of impassable areas, especially the "关中" area (now southern Shaanxi) and “巴蜀” (now Sichuan) are surrounded by a large number of mountains, which is an important reason for the rebellions in these areas in history.
 
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Besides war with enemy armies and outright rebellions with rebel armies, what other circumstances can reduce prosperity? Epidemics and extreme natural phenomenas quite likely. But how about internal politics? It would seem strange if prosperity continues to grow when a malevolent 0/0/0 ruler (whatever the PC equivalent of that) taxes the population to death to fund his new palaces which are way too big for the country, tries to forcefully convert the population to a new religion, actively tries to eliminate some groups, or something similar.

EDIT: How about the location not having its material needs met, whether those are food or luxuries for the population, or production method materials needed by buildings. Any impact on prosperity increase?
This would be the pop-satisfaction males I’d think.
 
Would it be possible to express these numbers as yearly values? That way the numbers are much easier to understand, like prosperity in Kalmar causing "yearly development +0.03" or for Kalmar in total it will be +0.2088 per year. Much better! It's also far easier to forecast its future development.

This is debatable though. For myself, I always found the “yearly corruption” and “yearly professionalism” quite difficult as I have to divide them by 12 to get my real cash flow every tick (monthly tick) then plan accordingly, then *10 or *100 or something to get the actual time in ticks when the bar gets filled. For their effect would pile 1/12 each month and I must know when things get serious or I can just chill for another 12 ticks.

The year thing is that, we get ticks every month instead of year. So, I often keep no track on when I get to 12 months later. But I would notice every tick and try to figure out what setting should I alter so my country gets better every tick.
 
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Shouldn't devastation and prosperity also affect taxes and production (if production will give you money as in EU4)? The more prosperous locacation is, the more money it should give to you and vice versa with devastation.
I’d say it depends on how taxation is working and how many ways it can be simulated. If some area under your control has sites along a gold trade it wouldn’t add to your coffers if, say, you only taxed agricultural produce in-kind.
 
So why would I not just build a road in every province? Do they cost money to maintain? If that is the case couldn't you make a massive money sink for the AI or if the AI makes roads inside your country?

Building is a tough one though. I think a solution would be write the AI to evaluate both their maximum available gain and potential spending and build only when needed and affordable.

Similar balancing were not well implemented in EU4, which I often found large countries wear themselves out by trying to recruit troops just to disband them later to reduce deficits, then recruit again because AI noticed there are threats and their army limits aren’t reached, then again disband……
 
yes, there are gravel roads in many places

Will any be better than gravel? Some of the Roman roads are still in very good condition, after all.
 
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