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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
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A game focused on nation states (as Project Ceasar seems to be) is not one well suited to the 1300s in which the concept of a state does not really exist. Instead the 1300s might be better modeled by a focus on dynasties and characters. But that is already very well done by CK3...
Why couldn't it portray the nation State in its infancy, starting from a much more reduced state?
 
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I'm happy that they are making official EU: Meiou and Taxes Edition, but I'm seriously worried about the performance.
I think something like high end AMD 5800X3D/7900X3D CPU will be essential. Meiou and Taxes is great content wise but it's one of the most demanding and unstable mods ever.

Also, even with 5800X3D late game (1900+) in Victoria 3 can still get very slow and it's basically unplayable on average CPUs (past 1900).
Last time I tried the M&T mod (a long time ago) it seemed to be suffering from wanting to do too many things at the same time, while also being restricted by not being able to access all parts of thevgame as they want to. Paradox can at least cut out the parts they don't want/need from a game, but they will still need to have some self control when it comes to how many features to implement. In Vic 3 a largevpart of the problem is the way buildings works in combination with the pops. Remove the need for individual pops to staff buildings and you eliminate a large part of the problemnin Vic 3.
 
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There should be Serfs in addition to Slaves and Peasents. It is especially crucial if the game has colonisation, because Serfs can't so easily move to another location. Also they wouldn't become Burghars or other social classes.. at least far less likely than peasents. Also, it is necessary for more realistic depiction of modern day Russia and Eastern Europe at that time.

In addition, I would add laborer class for late game when manufacturies/factories become available. This would also give in late game a stronger reason to remove slavery and serfdom.
 
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Speaking of classes, something that I think isn't really represented is tribal people who don't fit under peasant very well. Like nomadic peoples in the steppes, or people from less developed areas of the Americas, Africa, Northernmost Europe, Siberia.
 
Ah ha, I hope you don't mean the system made trivial by Boost Party Loyalty national focus mechanic.

For each class, there would be a button named "Make babies!" that would convert mana money into additional population.
 
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Please consider adding political leanings of pops when its 1700-1750s. I think its reasonable enough that pops should have that by that timeline when politics became a big thing for ordinary folk as well

I would consider it very likely for the game to end by 1700, if not earlier. People have been complaining about EU4 covering a timespan which is too long for years (in part due to how much warfare changed over the EU4 timeframe). Stopping around 1700 would also open a potential spot for a new IP focusing on enlightenment, the French and American revolutions and the Napoleonic wars.
 
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While most argue this might be EU5, I cannot help but hope this is Vic4.

Vic3 is way too economy centered for it to feel purposeful.

Great level of thoughts and design have been shown in these DD, keep it up!
 
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Pops, minor cultures, minor religions, dozens of pissant OPMs. These are all things I love. My excitement level for this unannounced game can best be summarized with this photo

Nut 2.jpg
 
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@MrMcQue

Sorry, my previous post is a bit on the face...

What I really meant was that, had EUIV been for years starting in 1356, you would think that the events surrounding this date would be very important, and things later would be more fuzzy.

And regarding any historical events happening after, say 1356, I'm very much in favor of them to happen... organically, based on the mechanics of the game, and not from a surimposed guideline, be it mission trees or DHE.
Yay, can't wait for the Ottomans to organically become the size they are at the beginning of EU4 in 1 in 3000 games.
 
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I find events boring as hell, mission trees as well, their all fun the "first" game, but otherwise they just bog down the game into specific historical outcomes or events. Basically events are dumb because by 50 years in, chances are it looks nothing like IRL, let alone 200 years in.
I think I prefer EU4 approach (mix between sandbox and historical railroading) over EU2 approach (almost total railroading; nice for 1 or 2 playthroughs and history lesson, but repetetive afterwards) and EU3 approach (almost total sandbox and not much flavour; border gore is crazy there).

I think that EU4/Hoi4 mission trees were a good idea and I like them; they just need more options and paths, both historical and ahistorical. Some mods are able to accomplish this; you can play some countries few times and each playthrough is more or less different.
It's still better than EU3 and early EU4 system, where you would get random generic missions like "Improve relations with XYZ" few times in a row.
 
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Speaking of classes, something that I think isn't really represented is tribal people who don't fit under peasant very well. Like nomadic peoples in the steppes, or people from less developed areas of the Americas, Africa, Northernmost Europe, Siberia.
They'll probably get added with DLCs.
 
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While most argue this might be EU5, I cannot help but hope this is Vic4.

Vic3 is way too economy centered for it to feel purposeful.

Great level of thoughts and design have been shown in these DD, keep it up!
Vic3 hasn't even been out for 18 months yet. There is no way on God's green Earth that this game is Vic4.
 
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Last time I tried the M&T mod (a long time ago) it seemed to be suffering from wanting to do too many things at the same time, while also being restricted by not being able to access all parts of thevgame as they want to. Paradox can at least cut out the parts they don't want/need from a game, but they will still need to have some self control when it comes to how many features to implement. In Vic 3 a largevpart of the problem is the way buildings works in combination with the pops. Remove the need for individual pops to staff buildings and you eliminate a large part of the problemnin Vic 3.
Yeah, feature creep and tech debt is also a big problem there. In my opinion, this mod got overcomplicated and overambitious at some point. Micromanagament is crazy there. Clunky interface and terrible performance doesn't help either. Though I really enjoyed early EU4 versions of MEIOU and Taxes and EU3 version of it (MEIOU).
So I'm happy that they are making "lite" version of that mod. Don't get me wrong; Meiou is a piece of art and has many great ideas and content in it despite it's flaws.
 
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Pops are a great mechanics from a gameplay perspective, but I'm worried about late game performance. Vicky even with the most aggressive pops merger game rule is (at least for now) really slow in the last decades, despite the efforts at optimizing it.
I'm also worried, though let's remember that EU3 also had population (back in 2007!), so who knows, maybe Johan and his team will find some clever way to avoid performance issues present in Victoria 3 in mid-late game).
 
Why couldn't it portray the nation State in its infancy, starting from a much more reduced state?
I fear it won't do either justice, and will instead end up focusing very much on the infancy part. This is what has largely happened with EU4 with very little focus on the later parts of the game. But look forward to being proven wrong.
 
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And why exactly are "those" events that important in the grand scheme of things, compared to events closer to 1356?
Because these core events that happened during the time frame of the last few installments of the Europa Universalis were what shaped it to what this time frame was? I like the idea of mission trees because it steers the AI in a direction to make decision which are hard to simulate organically.

It'd be as if Paradox decided to move the start date of HoI 5 forward to 1925 or smth, before Hitlers rise to power, and WW2 was something that only happened in like 1 of 50 games.

"Oh great, i too am very excited to see what happened if Heinrich Brüning continued his coalition government for 15 years and literally did nothing but pay back Germany's debts, and as a highlight, entered into a tariff-union with Austria. This is the gameplay i'm here for!" (Ok, it would actually be interesting but not in the conetxt of what Hearts of Iron should be about.)
 
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