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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
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Please consider adding political leanings of pops when its 1700-1750s. I think its reasonable enough that pops should have that by that timeline when politics became a big thing for ordinary folk as well
 
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The clergy will be the drivers of religion and they can help pacify or radicalize the commoners.
I wonder how clergy for religions outside the dominant one might be characterized. Like say Jewish Rabbi, or say protestants in a catholic country. I mean most religions would have some clergy even when they weren't officially supported by the state, but also many might have gotten the endorsement of the state for recognition of their authority. I wonder if there could be internal conflicts with the clergy you might want intervene and side with (for instance like how you might deal with the Protestant Reformation).
 
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If it has enough gameplay impact, developers would consider to break peasant class in 3?
1- Nomadic people
2- Pastoral people
3- Peasants

This way all the 3 main common lifestyles for the common people would be represented: Nomadic hunter-gatherers, nomadic shepherds and sedentary farmers.
This is kind of the main problem I see with introducing a Vic 2 style of pops for this time period. The list presented Johan is very limited, and doesn't necessarily fit for a lot of places. If they see a need to add more and more classes, and the game has some sort of migration, the number of pops could grow out of control. That said, as long as the game doesn't try to do too many things with the pops, having a lot of pops shouldn't be too much of a problem.

EUV will have pie charts*

* Actually they're donut charts, which are just as bad
They are worse, since they don't have the angle pie charts have, which helps people deciding how large portions are. That said, these charts will be pretty useless for anything other than seeing approximate distribution of the largest pops/cultures/whatever, but anyone wanting a detailed breakdown should be looking at the actual numbers rather than the charts, so it is good enough (although I hate the look of donut charts).
i totally love this not eu5, although i love eu4 so much it'll be sad to see it go
EU4 won't go anywhere. It likely won't get any more content by the time project caesar releases, but it will still be there.

I think I remember Lord Lambert made a video once where he said he wanted Johan to make EU5 precisely because Johan would draw the correct lessons from where Imperator went wrong. Three dev diaries in and that is proving to have been the correct call.
So far there seems to be more lessons from where Vic 3 went wrong than Imperator :)
I don't get this talk about EUV.

The game's codename is Project Caesar, obviously this must be Imperator: Rome II.

(Ignore the fact that Islam and medieval/early modern Christian denominations are confirmed to be in the game)
You need to be less narrow minded. You area clearly thinking about the wrong Caesar. This is the true Caesar of project Caesar:

1710355545377.png

I am sure that is what the Vic3 team said also.

Is there anything that was learned from Vic3 that has been able to improve the handling of PoPs People?
Don't apply too many calculations, and don't fragment them too much.
What exactly is your point? What is wrong? What is the map you posted showing? How should it be, and why?
I don't know the area myself, but it's quite easy to find information which indicates that the area may have been navigable in the past, and on the below map from 1760 the area appears to be drawn as water, not landmasses. From what I can find from a quick search, parts of the area is even regularly flooded during moonsoons today. Modelling an area like this in Paradox games can be complicated, and there may be an argument for not modelling it as ocean. You should however at least provide something other than what appears to be a modern map without any explanation if you think something is wrong.

1710357643751.png


The "Clive" the map refers to appears to be Robert Clive. The wikipedia article about him appears to show a map from 1765 depicting large parts of the area as water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Clive
 
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@Johan You promised us controversy and instead delivered a diary that has been received with near universal love and excitement. We shall remember this betrayal. :p

Also, Andalusian Muslims kind of narrows the game down doesn't it? The game has to take place between the arrival of the Ummayads and the expulsion of all Muslims from Spain. If we assume, the time frame of Crusader Kings is off-limits, then I guess we're left with Europa Universalis V. The mask is off!
 
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The end of the nonsensical "erradicate the religious/cultural majority from this province completely, definetly not a genocide" button, huzzah!
 
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Yooooo Pop system is back. Development system was so disillusioning. Like you can just build a city over night. Like massive megapollise in the middle of Siberia or something. Hopefully now cities will grow and shrink based on trade and investement. and conversions will be rather dynamic.
 
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Yes we're talking C++. My point is: you're still doing the same number of calculations while iterating. The game still has to check whether the workforce of a building wants to change based on the rest of the job market. At present, the loop would be "for pop_i of all pops; for pop_j of all pops relevant to pop_i's local job market; calculate average wages for pop_i to compare to" (with averages appropriately cached). Looping through the aggregated pop's hashmap of buildings won't change how many calculations you are doing. Same amount of data, same number of lookups and calculations, structured differently but without improving spatial or temporal locality.
It definitely makes a difference, number one less memory usage, since you have fewer pops stored in memory.
Second, yes maybe same number of iterations when it comes to job calculations, but many other calculations for example, religion, culture, migration etc, you'd be doing it for a single pop as opposed to say 10 pops (representing different buildings).

But anyway, I coded something similar in another project. And using hashmaps helped me tremendously rather than a billion of entities. And it does seem that this project avoids the pop clutter issue we've seen with V3.
 
Yooooo Pop system is back. Development system was so disillusioning. Like you can just build a city over night. Like massive megapollise in the middle of Siberia or something. Hopefully now cities will grow and shrink based on trade and investement. and conversions will be rather dynamic.
Yeah, POPs kind of change the way we will have to think about everything. Rather than feeling like EU4.5, this is shaping up to being a truly fresh sequel. I'm excited.
 
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I'm thinking of the Thirty Years War which wiped out like 40% of the population of the Holy Roman Empire. If you look at your decimated POPs at the end of a conflict like that and think "was there another way? Was this worth it?" it really will feel like a living world instead of a board game where manpower is just a disposable number.

I have been successfully hyped.
 
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This is great.
Why not though a system like the one in Imperator? I like the granularity of having just individual pops, rather than something like Victoria, where the number of people in each pop varies too much. Is there some justification for performance, or gameplay?
 
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EU traditionally only represents slaves as the victims of the Atlantic-African slave trade. I wonder if the new game will do history a bit more justice and model the victims of slavery around the world.
 
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1356 start date pls

Pros

-Weak Yuan against Ming

-Golden horse starting to fracture

-Tenochtitlan founded (1328)

-Ottoman conquest of Balkans

-hundred years wars

-Granada still owns gibraltar and ceuta

-Pagan Lithuania

-Longer medieval experience



You can add more

Also, pls dont rush when making map, I mean make it completed (proper locations, tags, starting borders, sea tiles, wastelands etc)

No one wants to see one big placeholder manchu tag or other placeholder states until dlcs on that region( africa, americas…), I dont mean completed mechanics just completed provinces and tags for future work
yeah but then you would 100 years to colonialism and if you added them Americas you would need it, as otherwise you wouldn't have a lot of player or gameplay in general in any area apart from your starting area
 
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Also, Andalusian Muslims kind of narrows the game down doesn't it? The game has to take place between the arrival of the Ummayads and the expulsion of all Muslims from Spain. If we assume, the time frame of Crusader Kings is off-limits, then I guess we're left with Europa Universalis V. The mask is off!
Only if you assume the images being shown in these talks are actually from the game instead of being mockups made to mislead us.
 
My main gripe with a significantly earlier start date is mainly that the history of the era the EU-franchise plays in gets more and more watered down as important events are less likely to happen, unless heavily scripted. This is already bad enough in EU4 where i have seen Habsburg Spain a total of 1 time in almost 2000 hours for example.
I know that the game is very sandbox-y and not everything should be railroaded like in HoI3 or similar, but a 13xx start date waters this down even more without some heavy scripting.

Adding to that, there is also the problem of less and less flavour as the ingame-years progress. With more time passing, more possible timelines and scenarios pop-up, and obviously Paradox Tinto can't create 150000 events for all 150000 scenarios. A solution would be mission trees to give the AI a heavy nudge to lean in a particular direction but the community seems to dislike them as well.

In the end, while i am a fan of alternative history scenarios and what-ifs as well, i am of the strong opinion that earlier and earlier start dates will inevitably lead to EU5 becoming more and more of a pure sandbox game devoid of any history and immersion. Early HoI4 and Vic3 have shown that trying to represent the reality and the development of nations purely by mechanics is a bad choice in my opinion.

If talking about an earlier startdate i'd propose 1431 as this was the opening of the Council of Florence, and gave a real shot at trying to save Byzantium or what was left of it. And yet important events like the Christianization of Lithuania, the Conquest of Ceuta by Portugal, the Battle of Grunwald or the Council of Constance already happened and set the stage for the future events of our timeline to be more likely to happen.

A failure to mend the Western Schism in 1417 alone would completely upset most of the future timeline and set it in a completely different direction.

There is a reason why i never really touched any of the pre high-middle ages bookmarks in CK2, as any game played from there meant a 100% unrecognizable Europe and complete and utter bordergore. And i'd totally hate to deal with the Black Death and the Hussite Wars.

I love the time period of the renaissance or the League wars and would love to be immersed in the colonization of America, the 30 years war, the Franco-Habsburg rivalry, the Union of Lublin, etc. But they need to actually happen, or at least some of them, which isn't even a thing in EU4 all that often.
 
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1356 start date pls

Pros

-Weak Yuan against Ming

-Golden horse starting to fracture

-Tenochtitlan founded (1328)

-Ottoman conquest of Balkans

-hundred years wars

-Granada still owns gibraltar and ceuta

-Pagan Lithuania

-Longer medieval experience



You can add more

Also, pls dont rush when making map, I mean make it completed (proper locations, tags, starting borders, sea tiles, wastelands etc)

No one wants to see one big placeholder manchu tag or other placeholder states until dlcs on that region( africa, americas…), I dont mean completed mechanics just completed provinces and tags for future work
The start date is a really, really important decision and it shouldn't be treated as a frivolous thing. For example, EU3 started in 1399 and the consequence of that was Bohemia dominating the entire game. After they added colonisation of Steppe Hordes, we often had Bohemia snaking across Russia like a virus. lol

All of the stuff you mentioned is stuff I'm interested in, but it's also better to model with more expansions to Crusader Kings rather than trying to shoehorn it into the systems of Europa, IMO.

I think 1444 is a really balanced start date. The traditional powers of this era are all in a place to take off. It just works.
 
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1356 start date pls

Pros

-Weak Yuan against Ming

-Golden horse starting to fracture

-Tenochtitlan founded (1328)

-Ottoman conquest of Balkans

-hundred years wars

-Granada still owns gibraltar and ceuta

-Pagan Lithuania

-Longer medieval experience



You can add more

Also, pls dont rush when making map, I mean make it completed (proper locations, tags, starting borders, sea tiles, wastelands etc)

No one wants to see one big placeholder manchu tag or other placeholder states until dlcs on that region( africa, americas…), I dont mean completed mechanics just completed provinces and tags for future work
Not also that, but something like a proper 1576 would be great too (Full Spanish, Netherlands, Ottomans, Mughals, Persia etc). This makes it much more interesting to play France, England or the Netherlands, in my opinion. It is a shame that EU4 has not really expanded the later starting dates.
 
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